Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

FairwoodRed said:

Far as I know, I'm the second to lose a bar in Washington state, and at roughly half the mileage as TaylorSFguy. He lives just a few miles from me.

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So that maybe makes one of you an outlier. Either his pack has done extremely well or your pack has done quite badly.

"A few miles" here can easily mean a difference of 10-15 degrees, due to the numerous and varied micro-climates we have. Does the same hold true where you are or is it much the same throughout the area?

mwalsh said:

So that maybe makes one of you an outlier. Either his pack has done extremely well or your pack has done quite badly...

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How do you figure? They both lost the first Capacity Bar at about two years. If battery cycling were important TaylorSFguy would have lost his sooner than that; he is a good test case for extreme cycling. Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.

dgpcolorado said:

mwalsh said:

So that maybe makes one of you an outlier. Either his pack has done extremely well or your pack has done quite badly...

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How do you figure? They both lost the first Capacity Bar at about two years. If battery cycling were important TaylorSFguy would have lost his sooner than that; he is a good test case for extreme cycling. Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.

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The main thing these two data points imply to me is that 5 years/80% is unlikely for anyone, but 60k/80% is possible in a mild climate.

cwerdna said:

dhanson865 said:

ChinaDad said:

Well, I have 12 bars back. I cannot figure out how to attach a photo, really wish I could. My battery is still not charging to the full extent as it did just 6 weeks ago. It charged (using 100% charge) to show 85 miles available in D mode (94 miles in ECO). This could be even worse for me because if my capacity bars stay above 9 there is no special warranty. I have lost between 15 to 20 miles in range!

Do you think there is something else wrong?

Mike

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I work just down the street from you (within a couple of miles), if you want a neutral 3rd party to look at it I'd be happy to pull data from your car to see if we can tell what is going on.

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Did we ever get to the bottom of this? It's funny how someone claims his capacity bars were at 10, then down to 6 (!) and back to 12 (after the software update) hasn't been heard from in 15 days...

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he didn't PM me, I don't know exactly who he is to talk to him in person. Hopefully he is still happy with his leaf after learning some new things about it.

dgpcolorado said:

Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.

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Exactly. So take heat out of the equation and all you have is time. And there are many more cars than these two in the PNW, including cars delivered earlier than May and June (when TSFG and FR got their cars). If time is the predominant factor, then we should have had a raft of PNW bar losses already. Though I'm still willing to concede that TSFG and FR might both be on the bleeding forward edge.

LEAFer, I’m torn on getting the software update. On one hand, Saturday’s are the only chance I have to see a dealer, but I also like to use my weekends for family and fun. On the other hand, I’m beyond my standard warranty and getting things done sooner rather than later means fewer questions from the service writer (I know this update is extended regardless of mileage, but I haven’t found that in writing yet.). Either way, I have to go in for my annual battery check this weekend.

Mrwalsh, There are differences in our areas, but not as much as yours. I am 5.6 miles away as the crow files and we are essentially at the same elevation ~400ft. I fully expect that his temps are no more than 2 degrees different than mine. I’ve had two road trips that ended in a hot battery (one really hot and the other TOO DA** HOT) and I wonder how much of an impact this had. Certainly I do not believe that calendar life alone accounts for it as I have used LEAFbatt to scan 20 or so cars from my local LEAF gathering. Many of those were approaching their 2 year anniversary and some of them still had 99% CAP, albeit with low (10k to 15k) miles.

mwalsh said:

dgpcolorado said:

Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.

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Exactly. So take heat out of the equation and all you have is time. And there are many more cars than these two in the PNW, including cars delivered earlier than May and June (when TSFG and FR got their cars). If time is the predominant factor, then we should have had a raft of PNW bar losses already. Though I'm still willing to concede that TSFG and FR might both be on the bleeding forward edge.

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Cycling is a bigger factor than time and likely even bigger than temperature. Battery life is generally specified in terms of how many 0% --> 100% --> 0% cycles they can perform before deterioration reaches some level (usually 70% or 80% remaining capacity). Cycling will be determined in a vehicle by its mileage and energy economy. A car driven hard, fast, and for many miles will cycle much more than one that is driven slow, easy, and with little mileage.

kovalb said:

Cycling is a bigger factor than time and likely even bigger than temperature...A car driven hard, fast, and for many miles will cycle much more than one that is driven slow, easy, and with little mileage.

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Then why can a LEAF in Seattle be driven over 70,000 miles in 2 years before losing its first capacity bar, but LEAFs in Phoenix with less than 10,000 miles lose the 1st capacity bar in less than 12 months?

shrink said:

Then why can a LEAF in Seattle be driven over 70,000 miles in 2 years before losing its first capacity bar, but LEAFs in Phoenix with less than 10,000 miles lose the 1st capacity bar in less than 12 months?

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I agree. Maybe in controlled environments cycling is the leading factor. But in the real world, it's clear that other factors trump cycling.

LEAFfan said:

cwerdna said:

cwerdna said:

an AZ friend's occasional FB posts about his temps, I don't think we're anywhere near as bad as Phoenicians esp. since it almost always cools down at night here.

He lives near Phoenix and here are some examples:
On June 18, 2012, he posted a screenshot of 111 F temp for Phoenix from a weather app.
On July 10th, he posted a 104 F pic from his car and said at 9:40 pm, it's still over 100 F.
On Aug 5, 2011, he posted a pic of his car showing 100 F at 9:17 pm.
On July 2, 2011, he posts a pic of his car showing 117 F.

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The above Phoenician Facebook friend posted some temps yesterday.

On June 28, 2013, he posted a pic of his Prius showing it's 117 F outside at 4:07 pm (Pacific time, I believe).
On the same day, at 10:26 pm, he posted his Prius showing it's still 100 F outside at 10:15 pm, saying it was 2.5 hours after sunset. Also said it "Was still 108° in Downtown Phoenix when we left there at around 9:40pm!"

Crazy!

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Broke a temp record today...at 1:21PM it hit 118F at PHX Sky Harbor. It could go higher later.

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On this note, I noticed that per Google's weather, at ~midnight Pacific time, it says it's 102 F in Phoenix! Yow!

Hope Andy Palmer makes a trip to Phoenix in this summer, as folks at the Phoenix meeting suggested.

Side note: For those unfamiliar w/the micro-climates in the SF Bay Area, the local news is forecasting these temps for Tuesday, as an example:
San Jose: 100 F
SF: 79 F (kinda warm for them, actually)
Half Moon Bay: 69 F
Dublin: 103 F
Livermore: 105 F
Santa Cruz: 79 F

shrink said:

kovalb said:

Cycling is a bigger factor than time and likely even bigger than temperature...A car driven hard, fast, and for many miles will cycle much more than one that is driven slow, easy, and with little mileage.

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Then why can a LEAF in Seattle be driven over 70,000 miles in 2 years before losing its first capacity bar, but LEAFs in Phoenix with less than 10,000 miles lose the 1st capacity bar in less than 12 months?

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+1! Cycling is down the list. With my '11, I drove very slowly, stayed off of freeways, and averaged 6.0 -6.8 m/kW h most of the time, but still lost a bar in June after one year and 10K miles.

FairwoodRed said:

Mrwalsh, There are differences in our areas, but not as much as yours. I am 5.6 miles away as the crow files and we are essentially at the same elevation ~400ft. I fully expect that his temps are no more than 2 degrees different than mine.

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Just a couple of thoughts about possible causes of the discrepancy between your two vehicles:

- I know that TaylorSFGuy charges at work. Perhaps that means that he also parks indoors while at work? Is it possible that your LEAF is in the sun all day while his is in the shade all day? Perhaps that could account for the difference in miles.

- I will also note the someone measured the capacity of a few 2013 LEAFs in a dealership lot. IIRC, some measured ~67Ah while others measured ~60Ah. So perhaps you haven't lost as much capacity as TaylorSFGuy, but rather you have lost less, but also started with less.

Just joined the 11 bar club and also received the software upgrade letter from Nissan. I rarely charge to 100% (just ask the NSA!) but today was one of those days. I had the 11 bars displayed for capacity, but 12 bars for my charge. Sweet! Like getting something for nothing. Seriously, this might be why Nissan announced a software upgrade?

RegGuheert said:

I will also note the someone measured the capacity of a few 2013 LEAFs in a dealership lot. IIRC, some measured ~67Ah while others measured ~60Ah. So perhaps you haven't lost as much capacity as TaylorSFGuy, but rather you have lost less, but also started with less.

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IIRC those batteries that read low were just showing a temporarily low reading - after some driving they recovered back to normal values for new vehicles.

RegGuheert said:

FairwoodRed said:

Mrwalsh, There are differences in our areas, but not as much as yours. I am 5.6 miles away as the crow files and we are essentially at the same elevation ~400ft. I fully expect that his temps are no more than 2 degrees different than mine.

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Just a couple of thoughts about possible causes of the discrepancy between your two vehicles:

- I know that TaylorSFGuy charges at work. Perhaps that means that he also parks indoors while at work? Is it possible that your LEAF is in the sun all day while his is in the shade all day? Perhaps that could account for the difference in miles.

- I will also note the someone measured the capacity of a few 2013 LEAFs in a dealership lot. IIRC, some measured ~67Ah while others measured ~60Ah. So perhaps you haven't lost as much capacity as TaylorSFGuy, but rather you have lost less, but also started with less.

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Shelton is slightly cooler than Kent, where both Steve and Brian seem to live. Even though I didn't have time to calculate the difference in effective temperature, I doubt that it would explain the large discrepancy in miles until first-bar loss. If memory serves, Steve's long-term energy economy is about 4.2 m/kWh and he drives mostly on the freeway.


EV parking at Taylor Shellfish Farms


Shelton, WA - Annual temperature distribution


Kent, WA - Annual temperature distribution

drees said:

IIRC those batteries that read low were just showing a temporarily low reading - after some driving they recovered back to normal values for new vehicles.

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O.K. Thanks! Somehow I missed that.

Still the point remains: It seems that the bars may not be based on a loss of a particular percent of capacity, but rather on the car dipping below a particular amount of energy storage available. If you combine that with the idea that not all LEAF batteries are created equal, with some having more capacity when new than others, then it follows that some vehicles may require a greater percentage loss of their original capacity than others in order to lose a bar.

On top of all that, there seem to be real issues with accuracy of the car's instrumentation, which implies that can also vary from car to car. Perhaps significantly...

well ,I guessed it , lost 3rd bar today 23292miles. 20 months . can someone add me to the 3rd bar losers list. I havent call yet but my range is dropping faster with each bar loss. I can barely make my 30-40 mile commute with out any side trips. I am going to have Nissan either end the lease or trade me into an ICE, TEXAS is just to much for the LEAF. I will not be able to use the car down to 4 bar loss. I will keep the list posted on what they say and offer.

RegGuheert, My car does sit in a parking lot all day at work. It could be full sun vs shade, but I think it’s more about periods of high heat. You may recall that last summer I took a day trip to Portland and regretted it as I hit 10 temp bars. I saw my GID’s drop precipitously and never fully recover. This weekend, I did a day trip to the Canadian border. I thought the shorter distance would be cooler. It was, but I still hit 113 battery temp. Add to that that for the first year I was not using a charge timer and I wonder if I haven’t just touched on all the factors…

While I could not measure the Ah on my car until recently, I did get GID readings after a few months. They were solid 280/281 until my Portland trip. That makes me think that I didn’t start with a weak pack.

SurfingSlovak, My long-term efficiency is 3.8 and I drive ¾ on the highway.

mksE55 said:

I am going to have Nissan either end the lease or trade me into an ICE, TEXAS is just to much for the LEAF.

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Should be interesting to see how things work out.

I wonder if four-bar losers might have more bargaining power when it comes to being released from a lease. It's like, either give me a new battery, or take the car back with no penalty.

mksE55 said:

well ,I guessed it , lost 3rd bar today 23292miles. 20 months . can someone add me to the 3rd bar losers list. I havent call yet but my range is dropping faster with each bar loss. I can barely make my 30-40 mile commute with out any side trips. I am going to have Nissan either end the lease or trade me into an ICE, TEXAS is just to much for the LEAF. I will not be able to use the car down to 4 bar loss. I will keep the list posted on what they say and offer.

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Well, there is a bit of good news for you. If you hit 4 bars before the 5 years/60K mile (new) capacity warranty, you'll be able to get the battery pack replaced for free. I'm guessing you'll get there well before the warranty is up, possibly by end of year, if not earlier.