Replaced Ecopia's with Michelin Defenders

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Always remember that worn out tires are much more efficient than new tires. Thus, if you went from a worn out version of a given tire to a new version of the same tire, you would still take a not insignificant efficiency hit...

zeroco2 said:
Well my Ecopia's lasted 25K so I just switched to Michelin Defenders and noticed a 10% range hit.
 
Stanton said:
thankyouOB said:
i still am down about 10%, though some of that could be battery aging.

You can't compare absolute range, you have to compare something like "m/kWh".
Doesn't matter if you use CarWings or calculate it yourself, just so long it's a consistent comparison.
Based on "m/kWh", I'm down closer to 6% after ~3000 miles.

i was using range per bar, but also m/kWh. the latter went from
upper fours (4.7-5 miles per bar down to 4.3-4.5 miles per bar).

roundtrip on 50 miles used to be 8 bars now it is 9 bars.
 
thankyouOB said:
Stanton said:
thankyouOB said:
i still am down about 10%, though some of that could be battery aging.

You can't compare absolute range, you have to compare something like "m/kWh".
Doesn't matter if you use CarWings or calculate it yourself, just so long it's a consistent comparison.
Based on "m/kWh", I'm down closer to 6% after ~3000 miles.

i was using range per bar, but also m/kWh. the latter went from
upper fours (4.7-5 miles per bar down to 4.3-4.5 miles per bar).

roundtrip on 50 miles used to be 8 bars now it is 9 bars.

So based on that data, your efficiency has dropped between 5-10%. I saw the same thing initially; I expect that will drift more towards the 5% (as opposed to 10%) figure after a few thousand miles. Also, for some reason (which I can't figure), there seems to be LESS of a hit on the highway vs. around town (lower speed).
 
Stanton said:
Also, for some reason (which I can't figure), there seems to be LESS of a hit on the highway vs. around town (lower speed).
Rolling resistance makes up a smaller percentage of energy used to travel at higher speeds than lower speeds, so that is expected.
 
drees said:
Stanton said:
Also, for some reason (which I can't figure), there seems to be LESS of a hit on the highway vs. around town (lower speed).
Rolling resistance makes up a smaller percentage of energy used to travel at higher speeds than lower speeds, so that is expected.

Now that makes sense: I'll buy that for a $1!
 
Michelin defender and mx4 are definitely good tires but they may not be called real LRR tires. Have a look at this PC post, really good reference: http://priuschat.com/threads/low-rolling-resistance-replacement-tires-current-list.92778/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
kensiko said:
Michelin defender and mx4 are definitely good tires but they may not be called real LRR tires. Have a look at this PC post, really good reference: http://priuschat.com/threads/low-rolling-resistance-replacement-tires-current-list.92778/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Talk about information overload... :shock:

There's a couple of take-away's for me:
1) You're going to take a "hit" in m/kWh when going from old (worn out) tires to new tires...which should improve a bit over time. I can attest to that and have attempted to document (some of) my experience in this thread.
2) Seems like the "really good" LRR tires DON'T have mileage warranties (like the Ecopia's), while other LRR tires (like the Defender's) do. I have a problem spending $100+ on a tire WITHOUT a mileage warranty (not to mention ones that only last 20k miles :evil: ).

I have to assume that a manufacturer can't arbitrarily call a tire "LRR" without meeting some sort of spec. That doesn't mean it's the BEST LRR tire, but that's where threads like this one serve to educate on Leaf-specific data.
 
CR tested LRR tires a while back. The Primacy MXV4 got their highest possible rolling resistance rating...

Stanton said:
I have to assume that a manufacturer can't arbitrarily call a tire "LRR" without meeting some sort of spec. That doesn't mean it's the BEST LRR tire, but that's where threads like this one serve to educate on Leaf-specific data.
 
wwhitney said:
TomT said:
CR tested LRR tires a while back. The MXV4 got their highest possible rolling resistance rating...
"highest possible rolling resistance" = worst? or best?

Cheers, Wayne

Doesn't really matter too much either way as the MXV4 tires aren't the best or worst for rolling resistance in the market as a whole.

Keep in mind RR changes from tire to tire. You probably look at that and go so what, everything is different from one to another. The thing about tires is hard to put in a single sentence soundbite.

For starters the short version of "mxv4" could be any one of

Energy MXV4 Plus
Energy MXV4 S8
Primacy MXV4

Next the RR varies by "size" so there are 30 or rolling resistance values just for the Primacy MXV4

Look at http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Primacy+MXV4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and see how on the specs tab only some of the sizes are listed as "Green X". The sizes that don't get the "Green X" designation have even worse rolling resistance than the ones that do but the ones with "Green X" still don't roll as easily as the Energy Saver A/S.

So which type and size of MXV4 did they test? which type and size of MXV4 would you get if you tried to buy a set?

It takes a lot of research and attention to detail to not get misleading information about tires.
 
They were the Primacy MXV4... I'd have to find the article again to tell you what size they tested... What I'd buy - and did - was the same size that came on the Leaf...

dhanson865 said:
So which type and size of MXV4 did they test? which type and size of MXV4 would you get if you tried to buy a set?
 
Stanton said:
KJD said:
Stanton said:
With the Michelin Defenders can you see any difference in the miles/KWH numbers ?

After a few days of driving, the answer is definitely yes: I'm seeing 10+% WORSE range out of the Defenders (low 4's vs. high 4's). While I expected some (at least temporary) drop in range since the Ecopia's were so worn, I didn't expect this much; at least I can track things in CarWings. The fact is I'm trading some m/kWh for longevity: there was no way I was going to buy another set of tires to only last 20k miles. While I don't expect the Defenders to out-last their warranty, at least you get some credit towards the next set.

I would be interested to hear other's experience with these tires. I have also read they do much better with higher temps AND age--both of which I'll be experiencing in the months to come.


I should have read this thread before buying the Michelin Defender. The efficiency suffers a lot. 5.2 to 5.4 m/kw is my daily average with AC; after after installing the MD, it is 4 to 4.2 m/k without AC.
Would the range get better after a while or not?
 
leafwing said:
I should have read this thread before buying the Michelin Defender. The efficiency suffers a lot. 5.2 to 5.4 m/kw is my daily average with AC; after after installing the MD, it is 4 to 4.2 m/k without AC.
Would the range get better after a while or not?

The short answer is yes, although you seem to be >10% (did you check alignment?). Go back and look at some of my later posts, but I'm seeing a (permanent) 5+% worse m/k with the Defenders. However, they ride/handle great.
 
Stanton said:
leafwing said:
I should have read this thread before buying the Michelin Defender. The efficiency suffers a lot. 5.2 to 5.4 m/kw is my daily average with AC; after after installing the MD, it is 4 to 4.2 m/k without AC.
Would the range get better after a while or not?

The short answer is yes, although you seem to be >10% (did you check alignment?). Go back and look at some of my later posts, but I'm seeing a (permanent) 5+% worse m/k with the Defenders. However, they ride/handle great.

I like the way they handle, but with two lost capacity bars, 10% decrease (or 5% permanent) doesn't sound good.
 
10k mile update: I'm now getting nearly the same m/kW as I was with the stock Ecopia's (and I have to admit I didn't think I ever would). I've been driving the same route to/from work for years, and now with the summer "bump" in m/kW I'm amazed at the 5+ numbers I'm getting again (I got to work this morning @ 5.5!). In fact, I'm so impressed with the ride/handling of the Defenders that I put a set on one of my other cars (exact same tire size)!
 
mwalsh said:
Seen absolutely NO efficiency recovery whatsoever with the MXV4s. Still stuck at 4.2m/kWh after 9500 miles of use. Still like the tires better though.
Have a hunch you won't see improvement in mileage. I put a set of MXV4's on an '08 Honda Civic Coupe. Found them relatively sticky on the road and made a huge difference in ride, road noise and traction in all weather conditions over the factory Bridgestone EL-400's that came on the Civic. I always suspected a slight drop in fuel mileage but was unable to determine if it was the tire attributes or that the Civic could now be driven like it was stolen without loosing traction.
 
mwalsh said:
Seen absolutely NO efficiency recovery whatsoever with the MXV4s. Still stuck at 4.2m/kWh after 9500 miles of use. Still like the tires better though.

Finally starting to see my efficiency creep up again, after I'd all but given up on the idea. Just noticed this morning that I'm now at 4.4m/kWh, with another 2500 miles on the tires.

No idea if I'll get back to the 4.7m/kWh I was eventually getting with the Ecopias though.
 
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