Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
TimLee said:
... Just like some of those early $10,000 plasma TVs had major deficiencies and experienced burn-in problems, we now know the 2011 / 2012 LEAF battery is first generation chemistry, 2013 is a bit better second generation chemistry, and 2014 (at least at some point in 2014 cycle) will be markedly improved much more heat tolerant chemistry.

We actually don't exactly know that the 2014 "Hot Battery" will in fact be "markedly improved". Yes, that's what they are saying today. But, the problem for me is that they have made a lot of statements in the past that didn't quite turn out to be accurate.

My point is that I'm confident that they ARE feverishly working on that better battery, however it sure took a lot of hammer hits to their respective heads to get the message that things wouldn't work out with the previous plan. The handwriting was on the wall for a LOOOOOoooooong time.

It was so painfully obvious that the gig was up last summer, that Mark Perry was telling folks that the battery would degrade quickly in heat when his boss was telling the press that it was all the "instruments" and the battery was fine.

So, I hope for the best. The Nissan LEAF is just too important to the EV movement to hope otherwise.

*******************************

2009 - Tesla CEO Elon Musk, well before LEAF was released for sale rips on Nissan's battery technology, and says it's "primitive" without a temperature management system.

January 25, 2010 Autoblog: "Is the Nissan LEAF Battery Pack under Engineered?".

From battery expert Charles Whalen:
"the LiMn2O4 chemistry, that both GM and Nissan are using in the Volt and Leaf, being the most heat sensitive and having the shortest life at higher ambients).... it is the combination of: a) the high ambients in hot climates like Phoenix and South Florida, b) the exponential nature of this Arrhenius function relating lithium battery life to temperature (where battery life roughly doubles for about every 25 degrees F reduction in temperature), and c) the high current cost of lithium batteries [$625/kWh for the Volt ($10,000/16kWh) and $750/kWh for the Leaf ($18,000/24kWh)], … that makes a liquid-cooled, water-chilled, active thermal management system economically advantageous and viable ***FOR AN EV THAT WILL SPEND ITS LIFE IN A HOT CLIMATE***."

A recent study by Pikes Research with U.S. Department of Energy data shows, lithium ion batteries (like those in the LEAF) exposed to hotter average temperatures lose their ability to store energy; the hotter the temperature the faster they lose their storing ability. So BEV owners in Phoenix will likely be looking to replace their batteries faster than owners living where the thermometer doesn’t often reach 110°F.

Thermal management of lithium-ion battery systems is critical to the success of all-electric vehicles because extreme temperatures can affect performance, reliability, safety and durability,” says a Ford press release.

“Extreme temperatures impact a battery’s life and performance, making it crucial to have an effective cooling and heating system to regulate temperature for these demanding applications,” said Anand Sankaran, Ford executive technical leader, Energy Storage and HV Systems.

November 2011 - the first known Nissan LEAF had it's battery pack replaced.

April 2012 - another Phoenix area LEAF driver reported the same issues.

August 3, 2012 - Mark Perry, Director of Product Planning for Nissan North America. On August 3, 2012, he was reported to have said, "We've also been very transparent in making sure people know that battery capacity will degrade in very high heat – for instance, if the cars sit out in 110-degree heat for five hours a day."

September 4, 2012- Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the LEAF. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.
 
I forgot to mention one item that may be of interest to some: The P3227 update. We were told that the tolerance prior to the update was plus or minus 10 percent... After the update it is now plus 0 and minus 4 percent.
 
I am glad the meeting was so cordial and friendly, but nissan still owes owners a battery price.
they promised last year and again this year.
they promised owners when they bought the car and the battery.

the survey nissan cites is bogus. nissan lumps buyers with leasees in making a judgment about this.
that isnt even mildly accurate or fair. it is sloppy work and marketing research.
owners bought the car and the battery. leasees never buy the car and dont own their battery, either. they already have told nissan that they dont like or cant pay the price of the car.

let's get real here and do what is right for the owners and for resale value. how many of the 25k LEAFS that are being driven were sales and not leases? about 7k? make it right for those of us who want to keep our LEAFS!

-how do you sell a car with a permanent battery lease?
-where is the Q&A also promised months ago?
-where is the post on the meeting from nissan. the meeting was two days ago?
 
^ I don't think you can expect an official response to a meeting that was away from corporate HQ; ran late on a Saturday night; in a location where communication was apparently spotty (maybe chosen for that reason? Where's my foil hat?). I think we'll hear something this week.
 
mwalsh said:
^ I don't think you can expect an official response to a meeting that was away from corporate HQ; ran late on a Saturday night; in a location where communication was apparently spotty (maybe chosen for that reason? Where's my foil hat?). I think we'll hear something this week.

thanks mike.
but are we really saying that nissan doesnt have the ability to post something that says: we will have our report up on
Tuesday?
i am looking for some courtesy and communication, instead of the usual blank wall and bait-and-switch, which is what the SYB program is.

this is about restoring faith with the early adopters who bought the car and want fairness with regard to the battery replacement program.
 
BBrockman said:
I'm still here, and do plan to provide some updates on a number of topics from the information discussed this evening.
Still waiting, Still looking forward to your update.
 
KJD said:
BBrockman said:
I'm still here, and do plan to provide some updates on a number of topics from the information discussed this evening.
Still waiting, Still looking forward to your update.

I wouldn't worry about the price/method of battery replacement until you actually need one. The market will decide if the rental model will be accepted.

I will see what my options are when the time actually comes for me to get a battery and have decided to not worry about that until I need to. Too many things not worked out at this point.
 
+1

TaylorSFGuy said:
I wouldn't worry about the price/method of battery replacement until you actually need one. The market will decide if the rental model will be accepted.
I will see what my options are when the time actually comes for me to get a battery and have decided to not worry about that until I need to. Too many things not worked out at this point.
 
thankyouOB said:
but are we really saying that nissan doesnt have the ability to post something that says: we will have our report up on
Tuesday?
i am looking for some courtesy and communication, instead of the usual blank wall and bait-and-switch, which is what the SYB program is.

this is about restoring faith with the early adopters who bought the car and want fairness with regard to the battery replacement program.

Your act is getting really old. If you want to know what was said at the meeting so badly, why did you decline your invitation to attend? You were the first person invited!

There may or may not be a formal statement from Nissan. They are in the middle of a month long Nissan 360 worldwide event and you expect them to post to this message board to satisfy your demands?

You have no right to complain. You had your chance to meet these guys in person in a very small setting to express your concerns and ask your questions. You were the first invitee and you declined.

I was personally very grateful for the chance to attend and enjoyed the evening. Nissan is trying and listening. We might not like what they have to say or how long it takes to say it, but I give them a lot of credit. The VP of a major global automaker took the time to meet with a small group of concerned owners face to face - and I repeat, thankyouob was the first invitee and he declined.

So stop complaining. They reached out to you personally and you turned them down. Now you're posting here demanding answers you could have asked them yourself? Why didn't you man up and ask them yourself?

I would also like to point out you were personally invited after a one-to-one with Chelsea and you still declined. You were probably the only one personally invited - the rest of us was likely via email.

You simply have no right to make accusations about "courtesy and communication."
 
TaylorSFGuy said:
I wouldn't worry about the price/method of battery replacement until you actually need one. The market will decide if the rental model will be accepted.

I will see what my options are when the time actually comes for me to get a battery and have decided to not worry about that until I need to. Too many things not worked out at this point.
Good strategy - how's yours been holding up? Are you still able to make your commute without charging or do you have to top up along the way?
 
Yes, i was invited and did speak in person at length with chelsea, where i expressed my views and listened to what she had to say. she too is frustrated with nissan's SYB* program and lack of responsiveness due to corporate inertia.

i have no knowledge of other invitee names or how they were invited.

To respond to your personal attack on me, it was not possible to travel from my home in CA to Phoenix. I told chelsea i would be happy and pleased to attend a meeting in LA , but it was not possible to travel due to family issues.
folks can look at your ID and see what was involved in your going to the meeting.

your act may be new here but your comment is truly offensive, aggressive and unwarranted.

to be clear and to correct errors in your post, nissan did not reach out to me or invite me. It was chelsea who reached out to me, invited me and, as a result, i met with her in the LA area.

As it was explained to me, she is not paid or employed by nissan but helped organize the meeting. i have never heard a word from nissan other than through this forum. no one has ever called, emailed, written or otherwise engaged with me.

perhaps, you would like to share where and from whom you received this incomplete and wrong information.

to repeat, perhaps, you would like to share where and from whom you received this incomplete and wrong information; or maybe what you were told was correct, but you dont know how to listen or repeat things with accuracy.

--
now, let's get back to discussing what nissan plans to do about improving battery capacity, heat tolerance, availability as replacement parts, and their ability to communicate with people on this forum with accuracy and timeliness.
 
Nissan Tests New Heat-Resistant Battery For Leaf Electric Car
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086498_nissan-tests-new-heat-resistant-battery-for-leaf-electric-car" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is an interesting comment. Must be some downsides to the new pack. Some characteristics that make it better in moderate climates or cost or whatever. Seems like it will cause some confusions if LEAFs are transported to other states and be sold (ie. after a lease).
Nissan has not yet decided whether the new battery would be fitted to all new Leafs, executives told Green Car Reports in an interview.
Summary:
The executives told the Leaf owners that, assuming the new battery goes into production, Nissan will provide a coupon to every owner who has a pack replaced before next April [2014].

That coupon, keyed to the car's VIN, and fully transferable, will entitle the owner to a further replacement pack based on the new chemistry if required, for a period of five years.
As Tony pointed out what Nissan does with the LEAF has lots of ramifications to the EV movement.
 
drees said:
Good strategy - how's yours been holding up? Are you still able to make your commute without charging or do you have to top up along the way?
I currently am down 1 bar with another expected to drop soon. According to the Bluetooth Android App, I am down 24%. Having the app has allowed me to go further than I otherwise would based on standard dashboard information. I am completing the commute somewhere between LBW and VLBW. So I am not stopping either way right now for a top off on a regular basis. Throw in some good headwinds and a lack of traffic and it has been dicey but still made it just after VLBW. The winter is coming and new tires are being put on so things may change around. Will post more details as they come along.
 
TomT said:
I forgot to mention one item that may be of interest to some: The P3227 update. We were told that the tolerance prior to the update was plus or minus 10 percent... After the update it is now plus 0 and minus 4 percent.
More details, please--what does this mean? "Tolerance" of what? Plus or minus in relation to what? I don't understand the statement, but it sounds important....

TT
 
We asked at the Phoenix meeting and were told that it was slightly more expensive. They claim no difference in capacity or other parameters... Also, what I was told would seem to indicate that wider use is planned for the battery than what the article alludes to. If you think about it, it ultimately makes no sense to have two different batteries to deal with in manufacturing, inventory and distribution without a very strong incentive to do so...

scottf200 said:
This is an interesting comment. Must be some downsides to the new pack. Some characteristics that make it better in moderate climates or cost or whatever.
 
This was almost an aside comment, and I didn't have the chance to query in detail, but the gist was that the BMS prior to the P3227 upgrade had a much wider tolerance in its capacity measurement, display, and battery control, and also did not compensate for temperature optimally. This was greatly tightened up in the update and is now similar to the 2013 algorithms. So, depending on the particular circumstances of a given car, you may have already been in the center of the tolerance and there would be no appreciable difference, or you might have been at outlier and experience something more of a difference, post update.

ttweed said:
TomT said:
I forgot to mention one item that may be of interest to some: The P3227 update. We were told that the tolerance prior to the update was plus or minus 10 percent... After the update it is now plus 0 and minus 4 percent.
More details, please--what does this mean? "Tolerance" of what? Plus or minus in relation to what? I don't understand the statement, but it sounds important....
 
TomT said:
This was almost an aside comment, and I didn't have the chance to query in detail, but the gist was that the BMS prior to the P3227 upgrade had a much wider tolerance in its capacity measurement, display, and battery control, and also did not compensate for temperature optimally. This was greatly tightened up in the update and is now similar to the 2013 algorithms. So, depending on the particular circumstances of a given car, you may have already been in the center of the tolerance and there would be no appreciable difference, or you might have been at outlier and experience something more of a difference, post update.
Thanks TomT. That is interesting and seems to explain the variable results we've seen after the update.
 
cwerdna said:
dhanson865 said:
Oh and as to the battery price issue, how many Prius owners do you think Toyota lost by having a $5000 battery replacement price on the Gen II (2005-2009). You do know that a few Prius owners over the last decade have had to buy a replacement battery (though many bought batteries from totaled vehicles or bought rebuilt packs some did pay outrageous prices from a Toyota dealership)?
Prius replacement batteries are NOT $5000. See lots o text

Yes, Prius batteries are NOT CURRENTLY $5000, I'm talking past tense back in the day the Toyota dealers used to charge much more for a Prius battery + installation, the price has dropped considerably since then and even past or present dealers will charge you different prices depending on who asks and who they ask.

Please don't jump the gun and try to refute my comment about past issues with quotes about current pricing and don't assume just because the list price is reasonable that a single dealer somewhere won't rip someone off.

Oh and if you think those prices for old battery replacements were harsh talk to the Honda Insight and Honda Civic Hybrid owners that got charged even more for replacement batteries.
 
TomT said:
This was almost an aside comment, and I didn't have the chance to query in detail, but the gist was that the BMS prior to the P3227 upgrade had a much wider tolerance in its capacity measurement, display, and battery control, and also did not compensate for temperature optimally. This was greatly tightened up in the update and is now similar to the 2013 algorithms. So, depending on the particular circumstances of a given car, you may have already been in the center of the tolerance and there would be no appreciable difference, or you might have been at outlier and experience something more of a difference, post update.
It was my impressions that the change was to the small "state of health" bars and not large "state of charge" bars. Correct?

j.
 
Back
Top