dhanson865
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:50 am

TomT wrote:What surprised me was that Billy or Erik - I forget which one and my notes fail to reflect who it was - indicated that there was even very large resistance at the $4K level...
phxsmiley wrote:- The Battery Price survey indicated that even prices in the 5-8K (from memory, correct me if I'm wrong) range were unacceptable to the current and potential drivers.
Funny, if they had said $4,000 it would have greatly increased my confidence in the leaf. That price doesn't scare me at all.
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:53 am

that is a fine report in green car.
they apparently were told by Nissan that information FROM Nissan would be out today on the meeting on Saturday.

i am especially interested in the tip that a battery will eventually be offered for sale.

i love my LEAF, and want to keep it going for at least 10 years. but i would never buy a car without being able to own and replace the battery.
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FairwoodRed
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:21 pm

TomT wrote:Andy indicated last night that Nissan has no interest in making a profit on the replacement of batteries... They feel they will loose money on the early side of the replacement or lease curve, in fact.
Last January, Andy also said that he would give us a price to buy a pack in Spring and that Spring meant April/May in his language. With no apology, explanation, or even acknowledgement of missing this commitment, I am not likely to believe what Andy said this weekend either.

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TomT
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:30 pm

One problem, as numerous Nissan folks there told us, is that they know the price of the battery is going to drop with time. Thus, if they pick a price before the cost has stabilized at least somewhat - which is a good ways off at least - they are afraid that that price will scare away customers who may not realize that the price three years, five years or more down the road will be substantially lower... It's a fair concern.
FairwoodRed wrote:Last January, Andy also said that he would give us a price to buy a pack in Spring and that Spring meant April/May in his language. With no apology, explanation, or even acknowledgement of missing this commitment, I am not likely to believe what Andy said this weekend either.
Last edited by TomT on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KeiJidosha
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:37 pm

scottf200 wrote:Nissan Tests New Heat-Resistant Battery For Leaf Electric Car
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/108 ... ectric-car" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is an interesting comment. Must be some downsides to the new pack. Some characteristics that make it better in moderate climates or cost or whatever. Seems like it will cause some confusions if LEAFs are transported to other states and be sold (ie. after a lease).
Nissan has not yet decided whether the new battery would be fitted to all new Leafs, executives told Green Car Reports in an interview.
Summary:
The executives told the Leaf owners that, assuming the new battery goes into production, Nissan will provide a coupon to every owner who has a pack replaced before next April [2014].

That coupon, keyed to the car's VIN, and fully transferable, will entitle the owner to a further replacement pack based on the new chemistry if required, for a period of five years.
As Tony pointed out what Nissan does with the LEAF has lots of ramifications to the EV movement.
Nissan's original gamble was that their in-house battery chemistry would perform over a wide enough temperature range to not need TMS. Saving the margin on batteries purchase outside (50%?), and the price, weight, safety, and complexity of TMS. This trade-off provided additional margins, and may have been the value proposition that let the LEAF EV program proceed.

Knowing now that the calculation was wrong, is Nissan buying or licensing outside battery technology that is more capable without TMS (like Toshiba's SCiB)?
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BBrockman
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:40 pm

Sorry for the delay. As you can imagine, with several folks in the room, different voices weighed in on the post. Add to that a late evening and travel schedules, and this took a bit longer than we'd have preferred.

Several of the attendees have doing a good job in the interim, so you've already been hearing the gist of the conversation. Since we couldn't get everyone in the room, we wanted to provide a couple of key details directly.

LEAF battery performance in hot climates:

To date, there have been a very small number of battery replacements related to capacity loss, and all of them have involved scenarios that included prolonged exposure to extreme heat. These have been very localized, but we are taking them very seriously.

Currently, we have almost completed testing of a new battery chemistry intended to substantially slow capacity loss in extreme heat. During constant testing at battery temperatures of 45 C/113 F, the new battery chemistry is performing similar to the manner that the current battery performs in temperate areas like San Francisco or Seattle.

We expect that, if testing continues on its current path, we will have this new chemistry ready to implement by mid-2014, and it will be compatible with 2011-2013 model vehicles. For those owners who have already had a replacement due to heat-related capacity loss, we intend to provide a transferable coupon for a battery with the updated chemistry to use within five years.

Battery replacement program:

We still expect to be ready to offer this by mid-2014, and are trying to use your feedback to refine it. We want to address the two biggest questions that we are seeing on the forum now. As we stated before, this program is still in development, so we don't have specific answers for every question. We will be able to provide more specifics as they are finalized.

Q. Why is there no outright price for a swap?
A. There are two main reasons we decided against releasing an outright battery price: 1. Customer research steered us a different direction; and 2. the evolving costs of batteries over time make it impractical to do so.

Weighing feedback from current and potential owners, we found that most favored a monthly payment approach and wanted to have ongoing assurance on the health of the battery. This approach provides the best balance of cost to the owner and increased receptivity among potential future buyers.

Q. Can I exit the battery program and keep my car in a functional state with a battery that I own?

A. We understand this sentiment and are investigating as we finalize the program. We are open to constructive suggestions and dialogue. Based on suggestions here and in other places, we are also evaluating mileage and capacity options to lend a degree of flexibility to this program.

Finally, we are very proud of LEAF, and are committed to supporting you, our customers. We take your feedback seriously.

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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:47 pm

TomT wrote:One problem, as numerous Nissan folks there told us, is that they know the price of the battery is going to drop with time. Thus, if they pick a price before the cost has stabilized at least somewhat, they are afraid that that price will scare away customers who may not realize that the price three years or five years down the road will be substantially lower... It's a fair concern.
FairwoodRed wrote:Last January, Andy also said that he would give us a price to buy a pack in Spring and that Spring meant April/May in his language. With no apology, explanation, or even acknowledgement of missing this commitment, I am not likely to believe what Andy said this weekend either.
That's something of a frustrating cop-out by Nissan. Things that are new to market cost more. I'm not going to bore the group again with the things I've adopted early over the years and page HUGE amounts of money for that are either just a couple of hundred dollars now or are even given away free. Any customer who doesn't understand this simple economic principle should probably just stick to buying a base Versa or leasing a LEAF, and then the price of the battery doesn't matter a jot.

Nissan should at least give those of us who have already purchased and foresee needing one a pack price, even if it requires an "on pain of death" NDA to get it.
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:56 pm

Thanks for the two question FAQ. I do like what I’m reading and hope that it ends up in a way that works for me (22k miles a year/78 month loan). I look forward to seeing what gets put into writing.

I have been following TaylorSFGuy’s posts with a lot of interest because he is the highest mileage driver we have sharing his experiences. He is also very near his pack’s useful life (Only a couple months left for him). I would certainly like to hear him say “I can’t disclose the details, but Nissan is taking care of my needs”. I want him to keep driving his LEAF.

To that end, please consider reaching out to him to see what solution can be worked out. I know that he has tried everything he can to reach out to Nissan and has found no satisfaction.

BBrockman wrote:Sorry for the delay. As you can imagine, with several folks in the room, different voices weighed in on the post. Add to that a late evening and travel schedules, and this took a bit longer than we'd have preferred.

Several of the attendees have doing a good job in the interim, so you've already been hearing the gist of the conversation. Since we couldn't get everyone in the room, we wanted to provide a couple of key details directly.

LEAF battery performance in hot climates:

To date, there have been a very small number of battery replacements related to capacity loss, and all of them have involved scenarios that included prolonged exposure to extreme heat. These have been very localized, but we are taking them very seriously.

Currently, we have almost completed testing of a new battery chemistry intended to substantially slow capacity loss in extreme heat. During constant testing at battery temperatures of 45 C/113 F, the new battery chemistry is performing similar to the manner that the current battery performs in temperate areas like San Francisco or Seattle.

We expect that, if testing continues on its current path, we will have this new chemistry ready to implement by mid-2014, and it will be compatible with 2011-2013 model vehicles. For those owners who have already had a replacement due to heat-related capacity loss, we intend to provide a transferable coupon for a battery with the updated chemistry to use within five years.

Battery replacement program:

We still expect to be ready to offer this by mid-2014, and are trying to use your feedback to refine it. We want to address the two biggest questions that we are seeing on the forum now. As we stated before, this program is still in development, so we don't have specific answers for every question. We will be able to provide more specifics as they are finalized.

Q. Why is there no outright price for a swap?
A. There are two main reasons we decided against releasing an outright battery price: 1. Customer research steered us a different direction; and 2. the evolving costs of batteries over time make it impractical to do so.

Weighing feedback from current and potential owners, we found that most favored a monthly payment approach and wanted to have ongoing assurance on the health of the battery. This approach provides the best balance of cost to the owner and increased receptivity among potential future buyers.

Q. Can I exit the battery program and keep my car in a functional state with a battery that I own?

A. We understand this sentiment and are investigating as we finalize the program. We are open to constructive suggestions and dialogue. Based on suggestions here and in other places, we are also evaluating mileage and capacity options to lend a degree of flexibility to this program.

Finally, we are very proud of LEAF, and are committed to supporting you, our customers. We take your feedback seriously.

thankyouOB
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:03 pm

BBrockman wrote:
Q. Why is there no outright price for a swap?
A. There are two main reasons we decided against releasing an outright battery price: 1. Customer research steered us a different direction; and 2. the evolving costs of batteries over time make it impractical to do so.

Weighing feedback from current and potential owners, we found that most favored a monthly payment approach and wanted to have ongoing assurance on the health of the battery. This approach provides the best balance of cost to the owner and increased receptivity among potential future buyers.

Q. Can I exit the battery program and keep my car in a functional state with a battery that I own?

A. We understand this sentiment and are investigating as we finalize the program. We are open to constructive suggestions and dialogue. Based on suggestions here and in other places, we are also evaluating mileage and capacity options to lend a degree of flexibility to this program.

Finally, we are very proud of LEAF, and are committed to supporting you, our customers. We take your feedback seriously.
thank you for posting. i love my LEAF and plan to keep it for as long as possible.

that said, I constructively criticize and dissent.
you are ignoring the part of your market that BUYS cars, doesnt lease them.
people such as myself would never have bought the car, if you had told us what you are telling us now. this is bait and switch, and will lead to a bad outcome for all in terms of publicity, marketing and worse.

we would love to see data from this survey that you keep citing. it seems to me that you are listening only to the future and past market potential of leasees. if you want to market a lease-only product or a lease-only battery you need to do that from the start, not surprise and then ignore people who have invested in your product.

this is bad customer relations and will only lead to very bad word of mouth.

evolving cost of battery problem is solved the same way you have solved the heat-battery development issue -- with a coupon or a credit.
or you could vary the value of the return pack so that the pricing is even over time.

moreover, if you continue down the road of not offering for sale the most expensive part of the car, what do you propose to do about resale of a car that comes with a battery owned by nissan and a perpetual lease?
surely, you see that as a problem for buyers that you must resolve????

--
and what FairwoodRed said about TaylorSFGuy.

i have all my bars at -- 29k and 28 months, but there is every indication that one is about to go.
range loss is not crippling for my commute, but is a major issue for some other uses.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
--
ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
--
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red SL with etec L3
SOLAR POWERED since 2008

thankyouOB
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:07 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
BBrockman wrote:Thanks for the quick and warm welcome!
Brian, a hearty welcome from San Diego. Thanks for the update.

Can we expect a new or remanufactured battery price with this announcement?

Tony
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