Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

I think the crux of it is that, yes, they certainly could do it, but since the 2011 and 2012 is a different system and different software, they can't simply patch the old code with the new code from the 2013. Thus, it would require a specific code development cycle to make the change and they are likely not willing to invest the time and cost to do so...

I know it annoys some, but in the overall scheme of things, there are probably better things they can be doing with the resources...

Stanton said:

Why can't a large company--with a lot of resources--do something as simple as port this feature into the 2011/2012 models? There is a HUGE--and I mean HUGE--difference between pressing "OK" EVERY TIME you start the car and once a month

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I'm sure they they will prudently adopt a wait and see attitude... Remember the old adage about "Fool me once..."

edatoakrun said:

What do the "I will never buy a BEV without ATM", and "The LEAF would be a great car, if it only had ATM" party members have to say in response?

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TonyWilliams said:

4. Any competitor to the Tesla products must have a robust quick recharging / battery swapping capability. My advice; buy into the Tesla Supercharger network.

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Just three words to say in response to this suggestion.

Yes yes and YES!!

Actually I have more . With Ecotality in financial straits and allegedly guilty of fudging govt reimbursements, charging a EV may become very challenging in the not to distant future in many LEAF key markets.

If you think I want to go to a Nissan / Infiniti dealer for a charge, guess again. I don't want to beg for a fob, ask permission, fight with for-sale ICE cars in the spots, not open 24 hours, and don't want a leering salesman around. That's the current Nissan CHAdeMO model in the USA.

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This can be addressed. If Boswells a small Harley Davidson dealer in Nashville can make their dealership a destination (some of the best catfish in Nashville), car dealers could do the same. Offer food and/or refreshments while folks juice up. I have zero interest in motorcycles, but I've been to Boswells many times.

5. There is no reason Nissan can't build a better mouse trap, but the committee process of Nissan is not a match for a driven, ambitious, make-it-happen, autocratic guy like Elon Musk. He will eventually move on to other things, but I recommend finding that guy in your company and putting him in charge of that future car, with a budget to make it happen.

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Agreed. The current OEM business model is out dated. If Nissan can be one of the first to reinvent themselves, one product line at a time starting with EV's, they will be poised for great success.

TonyWilliams said:

4. Any competitor to the Tesla products must have a robust quick recharging / battery swapping capability. My advice; buy into the Tesla Supercharger network. I will gladly pay the $1500 - $2500 for "free for life" recharging that I can use anywhere in North America.

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This is a great idea, but I think that it will cost $2000 minimum - and probably significantly more. After all, Tesla charges it's own 60 kWh Model S owners $2000 to use the network (they say some of that cost is hardware, but I think we all know that the hardware cost should be minimal). The bigger issue for a non-Tesla (or specifically Nissan) is - what plug do you use? Do you need a 3rd plug? Or a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter? Or perhaps just go with a single Tesla plug?

Either way - the batteries have to be able to handle 3-5 QCs day to match Tesla with no ill effects - that pretty much means extremely heat resistant battery (which it sounds like this hot-battery may quality) or some sort of thermal management.

smkettner said:

shrink said:

3. There was a claim that a car "Better than the Model S" was in development.

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Better range?
Better acceleration?
Better economy?
Better in the crash test?
Better battery longevity?
Better handling?
Better interior?
Better cool factor?
Better charging?

All of the above? It will be many high bars to hurdle.

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There's no need for Nissan to be specific. It's marketing talk.

Musk is out there saying he's gonna build an affordable EV in 2-3 years. aka a LEAF Killer. He isn't very specific, he's just seeding peoples minds to wait for his 'better car'. Whatever that is at a 'better price' whatever that is.

Nissan have correctly responded by saying we'll see your EV and raise you four new EV's.

Musk has set his targets on the lower end of the EV market, cross hairs on Nissan and GM. Musk has effectively dominated the luxury vehicle market in months, not years; overtaking BMW an entrenched leader. Tesla are a credible threat to all EV manufacturers. Nissan would be derelict in their duty if they didn't respond.

The good news for you and me is that this competition will result in better cheaper EV's for us to buy and drive.

TomT said:

I'm sure they they will prudently adopt a wait and see attitude... Remember the old adage about "Fool me once..."

edatoakrun said:

What do the "I will never buy a BEV without ATM", and "The LEAF would be a great car, if it only had ATM" party members have to say in response?

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The same clueless clown also wrote this:

The good news? I finally lost my first capacity bar the morning after the Vacaville DC charge, at ~20,700 miles.
And still my LEAF still shows no significant loss of range, but I'll post more on that on an appropriate thread.

drees said:

Either way - the batteries have to be able to handle 3-5 QCs day to match Tesla with no ill effects - that pretty much means extremely heat resistant battery (which it sounds like this hot-battery may quality) or some sort of thermal management.

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If they are indeed testing the battery at 45C, we already know that Phoenix can be at that temperature, or higher on an asphalt parking lot.

Then, any quick charge of 1C or 2C will heat up just about ANY battery. What happens to a "hot battery" when I drive the West Coast Electric Highway on a 100F day? It gets really, really HOT, just like the current one.

The "hot battery" is just an improvement over the existing product; that doesn't make it a "capable" battery that is anything like what Tesla is providing with ROBUST temperature control.

QueenBee said:

I'm OK with Nissan keeping us in the dark until the cost is palatable as I will bet this will allow them to sell more EVs to the masses.

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I don’t like being kept in the dark, but I do like that Nissan has shared that is their intention and some of the reasons for doing so.

shrink said:

A few other notes (in no particular order) that I'm not sure have been mentioned previously:

5. The Nissan crew arrived at the hotel in LEAF's.

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I know it’s a little thing, but this makes me happy

chill with the name-calling and/or character attacks.
this happened earlier in this thread by someone else, as well.
it only makes you look small and your point is diminished.

drees said:

Reg, I think we are in violent agreement here.

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Cool!

I'm just concerned because some of the comments about the meeting have made me think that Nissan feels that only hot climates will need the battery with the improved heat resistance. That is simply not true. Nissan needs to consider than the range-limited LEAF can be a very good fit for those of us with minimal driving needs. But this is true IF AND ONLY IF the battery can last for many years just sitting around.

Nissan, please put the heat-tolerant battery in ALL LEAFs!

Yes, I saw that. He should be ecstatic then when he losses his second bar and still has full range! :lol:

TonyWilliams said:

The same clueless clown also wrote this:
The good news? I finally lost my first capacity bar the morning after the Vacaville DC charge, at ~20,700 miles.
And still my LEAF still shows no significant loss of range, but I'll post more on that on an appropriate thread.

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People should also be aware that testing at 45C (the constant internal battery temperature during the test, by the way) does not mean that there is NO degradation at that temperature, simply reduced degradation compared to the old chemistry... Keeping a battery cooler will still decrease degradation; the curve has simply been moved higher with the new "hot battery" chemistry. One note: Craig did indicate that they use QC as one of the 45C testing mechanisms...

TonyWilliams said:

If they are indeed testing the battery at 45C, we already know that Phoenix can be at that temperature, or higher on an asphalt parking lot.

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RegGuheert said:

drees said:

Reg, I think we are in violent agreement here.

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Cool!

I'm just concerned because some of the comments about the meeting have made me think that Nissan feels that only hot climates will need the battery with the improved heat resistance. That is simply not true. Nissan needs to consider than the range-limited LEAF can be a very good fit for those of us with minimal driving needs. But this is true IF AND ONLY IF the battery can last for many years just sitting around.

Nissan, please put the heat-tolerant battery in ALL LEAFs!

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I'm OK with it not being standard as long as it is offered as an option in all markets. It could be the new chemistry is more expensive to manufacturer. Maybe, maybe not.

To save themselves from future complaints, I agree that they should look to put the new chemistry in all LEAF's.

However we don't know what they know; so they may have reasons to be picky. The chemistry chosen has to balance, heat tolerance, safety and cycle losses. You can't increase all three at the same time (at least not without a totally new battery tech). They may sacrifice battery cycles for heat tolerance. I doubt they would sacrifice safety.

We were told that the new chemistry is "slightly more expensive." I was also told separately that the new battery would in fact be used in all cars ultimately due to economies of scale and inventory considerations...

JPWhite said:

I'm OK with it not being standard as long as it is offered as an option in all markets. It could be the new chemistry is more expensive to manufacturer. Maybe, maybe not.

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Will SW sales lag while people wait for the new chemistry, maybe creating better deals on existing stock, or freeing up inventory for the rest of us?

What about future used car sales?

JPWhite said:

The chemistry chosen has to balance, heat tolerance, safety and cycle losses. You can't increase all three at the same time (at least not without a totally new battery tech). They may sacrifice battery cycles for heat tolerance. I doubt they would sacrifice safety.

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JP, I believe that should be possible. The NEC R&D report Stoaty linked upthread added some sulphur into the electrolyte for increased heat tolerance. Nothing was said about cycle life, if I recall correctly. Although there could be a change in that characteristic because of this addition, I wouldn't expect anything dramatic. To go back to the somewhat inadequate metaphor upthread: if a preservative is added to a food item, the consumer may or may not taste or appreciate the difference or notice a change in composition. To me, electrolyte and other changes to the battery chemistry should be on the same playing level, and it should be possible to improve the thermal characteristics without impacting some of the other desirable features of the battery.

TomT said:

People should also be aware that testing at 45C does not mean that there is NO degradation at that temperature, simply reduced degradation compared to the old chemistry... Keeping a battery cooler will still decrease degradation; the curve has simply been moved higher with the new "hot battery" chemistry. One note: Craig did indicate that they use QC as one of the 45C testing mechanisms...

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Thank you for making that point, this is very important to realize and perhaps it's an unfamiliar concept to some readers.

TomT said:

One note: Craig did indicate that they use QC as one of the 45C testing mechanisms..

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One of the guys from Nissan at Casa Grande, Arizona told us we didn't know what we were talking about last summer with hot battery degradation, and that they had already tested Nissan LEAFs "up to 30 days each" in hot temperatures, so "all was well".

TonyWilliams said:

If they are indeed testing the battery at 45C, we already know that Phoenix can be at that temperature, or higher on an asphalt parking lot.

Then, any quick charge of 1C or 2C will heat up just about ANY battery. What happens to a "hot battery" when I drive the West Coast Electric Highway on a 100F day? It gets really, really HOT, just like the current one.

The "hot battery" is just an improvement over the existing product; that doesn't make it a "capable" battery that is anything like what Tesla is providing with ROBUST temperature control.

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Tony: One thing worth noting is that 45C isn't the ambient temperature for testing. That is the constant, internal battery temperature during the testing, which is more severe than temperature cycles that heat up and cool down.

BBrockman said:

Tony: One thing worth noting is that 45C isn't the ambient temperature for testing. That is the constant, internal battery temperature during the testing, which is more severe than temperature cycles that heat up and cool down.

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Yes, we all agree about the 45C battery temp... hopefully, you also understand that a 45C battery can be in a 35C ambient temperature parking lot in Phoenix. At 45C ambient, that same battery can be at 55C.

What happens when we charge it? It heats up further.

One tidbit from my aviation background... testing tended to max out at 50C, and therefore performance data ended there. I have been stopped from operating in the USA by that temperature threshold; can you guess what city?

Folks driving their LEAF aren't going to be constrained by FAR Part 121, and will drive regardless of the temperature.

I'm going to need a couple of years of real-world, independently-verified data before I believe there's any significant improvement in heat-tolerance.

I'm still bugged by the official statements that refer to the current problem as "isolated", or "only affecting a very small number of users", or "only shows up in batteries exposed to extreme heat". We're already having Florida LEAF owners with two capacity bars lost after only 18 months of use. We're on the opposite side of the country from Phoenix and it looks like we're headed down the same path they are.