Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

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thankyouOB said:
jhm614 said:
JPWhite said:
It's a pet peev of mine that so much public money was spent on putting level2 evse's into locations like McDonald's where they are of minimal benefit to EV drivers. That same money spent on encouraging and assisting employers installing level1/2 chargers would have done much more to encourage EV adoption. I may have to switch to my wife's Altima this winter. The 60 mile round trip on a 1 bar loss LEAF is a stretch.
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Yes, workplace charging should have been part of the EV project -- free charger at home, free charger at the work place. Maybe there will be an EV Project V2 -- with ChargePoint at the helm?
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ecotality L2 program DID include installing at work places. Mine, with some 3000 daily commuters, installed a dozen Ecotality devices under the program, though after the first year you no longer may charge for free.
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The problem with the EVProject is that is was heavily weighted towards retail establishments. Reading one of the early EVproject reports, it details how they came to this strategy. In the early report it said that contrary to their expectations, recreational destinations were further away than the workplace. Their logic (which is flawed) is that since recreational destinations were further away than the workplace, then EVSE's should be placed there since the battery charge will be lower. The bit they missed is that you go to work typically 5 times per week, but those recreational jaunts only 1-2 times per week. Looking at total distance for the trip without regard to frequency provided them with the wrong guidance. Another flaw in their logic is they ignored the fact that the EV is an ideal commuter car, so logically one should target the workplace. The gainfully employed didn't buy the LEAF just to go to the cinema, we really bought it to take us to work and back economically. Another obvious fact is that a car is parked for 8 hours or more at the workplace. Maybe just 30 minutes at McDonalds. Place the EVSE where the car is parked the most

They goofed. Plain and simple.
 
thankyouOB said:
jhm614 said:
Yes, workplace charging should have been part of the EV project -- free charger at home, free charger at the work place. Maybe there will be an EV Project V2 -- with ChargePoint at the helm?
Click to expand...

ecotality L2 program DID include installing at work places. Mine, with some 3000 daily commuters, installed a dozen Ecotality devices under the program, though after the first year you no longer may charge for free.
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No, I mean as a 1:1 thing -- the individual participant gets a charger at home and a charger at work. I think it would be fine for the work chargers to have a charging fee as well. Hmmm... I guess you couldn't do it will all of the participants but they could have selected a 1,000 high milage commuters to test, maybe?
 
Wake up everyone. Nissan know it a scam to put you in the $100 monthly fee for battery pack. Guarantee 4 bars lost before they replace new pack. What I have experience is the time you lost the 1st bar. Your mileage range is only good up to 65miles or lower. Now ask yourself, can you handle this new lost bar and driving $100 monthly for 65 miles range.

Nissan will program their software to make it even harder to drop to 2nd or 3rd and 4th. The 4th bars lost will have to reach below a threshold that most battery survives after 7 years.

So imagine you paying $100 monthly on your 2nd years with a lost of 2nd bars now your driving range is less then 50 miles. What a scam Nissan trying to sell us. Your bar method is cheating when 1st bars take a huge hit while your 2n, 3rd and 4th won’t show any effect therefore never register to show up as a lost bars.

Now once you in their stupid scam plan, how in the world you going sell your Leaf at 50 miles driving range! Asking the new owner to pay $100 monthly at 50 miles driving range with 2nd bar lost. Oh forgot here the pitch to the buyer....now if you drive for another 10 years and finally it does drop with 4th lost bar. Nissan give you a brand new spanking battery. Any taker??????
 
oscar said:
Nissan will program their software to make it even harder to drop to 2nd or 3rd and 4th. The 4th bars lost will have to reach below a threshold that most battery survives after 7 years.
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I have seen no evidence to suggest that Nissan would do this. They have enough problems without resorting to outright cheating, and they would certainly be caught. It would be picked up by the LeafDD and the Leaf Battery App in a heartbeat since we have a decent idea at what point bars will be lost, and they would then (rightfully) be subjected to a class action lawsuit and the surrounding negative publicity. Enough with the conspiracy theories.
 
Stoaty said:
I have seen no evidence to suggest that Nissan would do this. They have enough problems without resorting to outright cheating, and they would certainly be caught. It would be picked up by the LeafDD and the Leaf Battery App in a heartbeat since we have a decent idea at what point bars will be lost, and they would then (rightfully) be subjected to a class action lawsuit and the surrounding negative publicity. Enough with the conspiracy theories.
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Furthermore, at the recent Phoenix meeting a Nissan rep verified what the capacity bars represent, and it turned out to be the same as that first edition of the service manual that we have long been using as a guideline. So I think we have a pretty good handle on what losing the fourth bar means (~66% of new battery capacity remains, around 44 Ah by my calculation) and we can measure battery capacity fairly well. No surprises.
 
with the new "heat" battery development announcement along with a bit of backtracking on the replacement program, hoping Nissan has realized that making a statement with so little facts was an invitation to let our imaginations run wild (and did they ever! :shock: )

ya, I think the $100 program will be one of several options that has a chance of working.

the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
...the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
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I'm not so sure Dave. I could make it work if I could do interim charging on my longer trips. Not as convenient as now, of course, but doable. I just don't have any public charge stations in my area. But that's not a problem for the vast majority of LEAF owners, who do have access to public charge stations.

You are already doing interim charging to stretch your range. Surely three bar losers could also do that until they hit four bars and were eligible for a new battery. This is mostly an issue for the 20% of us who purchased our LEAFs, plus any used LEAF buyers who have 50+ mile range needs.

Still, you are probably right that it is an impediment for the "mass market".
 
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
...the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
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I'm not so sure Dave. I could make it work if I could do interim charging on my longer trips. Not as convenient as now, of course, but doable. I just don't have any public charge stations in my area. But that's not a problem for the vast majority of LEAF owners, who do have access to public charge stations.

You are already doing interim charging to stretch your range. Surely three bar losers could also do that until they hit four bars and were eligible for a new battery. This is mostly an issue for the 20% of us who purchased our LEAFs, plus any used LEAF buyers who have 50+ mile range needs.

Still, you are probably right that it is an impediment for the "mass market".
Click to expand...

the problem with the interim charging now is lack of convenient charging options. interim charging could work but only if the current public charging infrastructure was tripled and each additional charger was put in a near perfect spot.

the likelihood of that happening (if it were possible) is not good. We pretty much have to double what we have now to handle the growing demand in my area as it is...
 
the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
Click to expand...

Right, and when GM limited the Volt to its range because of all the surveys they did showed that most people did not travel more than 35 miles per day, they were lying!!!! By the way, I travel less then 30 miles a day and so do all the Leafers I know, granted not that many.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
the problem with the interim charging now is lack of convenient charging options. interim charging could work but only if the current public charging infrastructure was tripled and each additional charger was put in a near perfect spot.

the likelihood of that happening (if it were possible) is not good. We pretty much have to double what we have now to handle the growing demand in my area as it is...
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I agree... but I think that 1:1 workplace charging (or at least 1:0.5 workplace charging is the solution for 70% to 80% of this... It fixes most of the weekday problems (and possibly none of the weekend problems). Still, it seems like the low hanging fruit to me. Of course, I actually know -nothing- of of the regulatory, permitting & infrastructure required (not to mention the funding) to make this happen.
 
jhm614 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
the problem with the interim charging now is lack of convenient charging options. interim charging could work but only if the current public charging infrastructure was tripled and each additional charger was put in a near perfect spot.

the likelihood of that happening (if it were possible) is not good. We pretty much have to double what we have now to handle the growing demand in my area as it is...
Click to expand...
I agree... but I think that 1:1 workplace charging (or at least 1:0.5 workplace charging is the solution for 70% to 80% of this... It fixes most of the weekday problems (and possibly none of the weekend problems). Still, it seems like the low hanging fruit to me. Of course, I actually know -nothing- of of the regulatory, permitting & infrastructure required (not to mention the funding) to make this happen.
Click to expand...

i agree that not provisioning workplace charging for L1 was a mistake. 8 hours of L1 may not allow Steve Marsh to do what he needs to do but it really does boost the range of the LEAF just enough to cover most of the range shortfall for the average driver and allow some errands during or after work.
 
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
...the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure Dave. I could make it work if I could do interim charging on my longer trips. Not as convenient as now, of course, but doable. I just don't have any public charge stations in my area. But that's not a problem for the vast majority of LEAF owners, who do have access to public charge stations.

You are already doing interim charging to stretch your range. Surely three bar losers could also do that until they hit four bars and were eligible for a new battery. This is mostly an issue for the 20% of us who purchased our LEAFs, plus any used LEAF buyers who have 50+ mile range needs.

Still, you are probably right that it is an impediment for the "mass market".
Click to expand...

As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.

The point to the 4-bar 70% EOL (or even less) is economics. Batteries are expensive, the more miles you can get out of one the better off you are. The longer you use it, the more miles you get. Should get about twice as many miles out of a pack to 70% 4-bar loss as with 80% 2 bar. Should get even more miles if you can live with 60% or more reduction in capacity.
 
yes, i will keep my car that i bought and yes, it will be better to milk the current battery for as much use as possible.
the key use is commute to work. that is a must. lose that and i have to sell it.
but along the way, as i shed range, i shed key other uses, such as using the car to go to hollywood on a weekend or some friends' apartments, who live 35 miles away. (they dont have garages and there are no convenient chargers.)
of course, if it were my only car, i would figure a way into the inconvenience of charging on the go-there or return trip.

all that said, it sucks that nissan has pulled the syb program on us. it sucks worse that some came back from the phoenix 2 with the idea that somewhere down the road nissan will set a threshold of mileage or ownership period after which they would sell a battery to owners.

there seems to be some disagreement about what was said about that. nailing the truth of what was said by nissan is less significant because nissan has lied to us before or, to put it more nicely, changed its mind after making promises.

all that said, you would think they would find a way to make early adopters happy (it would not cost them more than $10 million) so we could once again be a source of recommendations and joy.
but then, i dont run a car company.
 
WetEV said:
As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.
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The problem is one of psychology. Even for someone who drives 35 miles or less per day, most of the time, the idea of a car limited to 50 miles or so is difficult to accept for the "mass market". That's why so many here are of the opinion that BEVs won't catch on until the range is substantially higher.
The point to the 4-bar 70% EOL (or even less) is economics. Batteries are expensive, the more miles you can get out of one the better off you are. The longer you use it, the more miles you get.
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I agree and am attempting to figure out how to deal with a 50 mile range battery in the years to come. It is a difficult problem.
Should get about twice as many miles out of a pack to 70% 4-bar loss as with 80% 2 bar...
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Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the battery degradation really does slow anywhere near that much. One factor to consider is that a lower capacity battery requires deeper charging cycles to get the same miles.
 
dgpcolorado said:
WetEV said:
As someone has already noted, surveys of drivers find that well over half drive less than 35 miles a day. "Mass market", yes.
Click to expand...
The problem is one of psychology. Even for someone who drives 35 miles or less per day, most of the time, the idea of a car limited to 50 miles or so is difficult to accept for the "mass market".
Click to expand...
People don't buy for the "average" use. They buy for the 90th percentile or something like that. Ofcourse some have gone overboard and bought huge trucks for everyday use - as some kind of a lifestyle statement.

So, EVs would have to work for the typical trip to friends and family or day trips over the weekend. Just working for commute is a tough sell.
 
46 a day here with significant elevation change...

AP1 said:
the 4 bar option (which i thought was never really viable) is not an option for me or nearly anyone else i know. i do know a few that rarely put more than 40 miles on their LEAF in a day who would be ok but they are far and few between and that scenario simply does not play well for a mass market goal.
Click to expand...

Right, and when GM limited the Volt to its range because of all the surveys they did showed that most people did not travel more than 35 miles per day, they were lying!!!! By the way, I travel less then 30 miles a day and so do all the Leafers I know, granted not that many.
Click to expand...
 

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