Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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Bay Area Leaf
Lost first bar Oct 9, 2013
Mileage 28,600
Received vehicle May 12, 2011

It doesn't appear that I will have 80% capacity at 5 years and 70% capacity at 10 years even in the relatively mild Bay Area climate.

Anyone have a guess if I'm on track to qualify for the battery replacement before 60,000 miles?
 
^^^
Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

As for "relatively mild Bay Area climate", it really depends on where. Folks who live in places like SF, Half Moon Bay, Pacifica, etc. have very mild climates. Those who live in say Walnut Creek and Concord have it much hotter in the summer.

Example average highs below:
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/94044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/USCA0459" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/94598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/USCA0247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
cwerdna said:
Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

As for "relatively mild Bay Area climate", it really depends on where. Folks who live in places like SF, Half Moon Bay, Pacifica, etc. have very mild climates. Those who live in say Walnut Creek and Concord have it much hotter in the summer.
Click to expand...
ChipsLeaf is in East Bay. San Ramon and Hayward were mentioned in an earlier post.
 
ChipsLeaf said:
Bay Area Leaf
Lost first bar Oct 9, 2013
Mileage 28,600
Received vehicle May 12, 2011

It doesn't appear that I will have 80% capacity at 5 years and 70% capacity at 10 years even in the relatively mild Bay Area climate.

Anyone have a guess if I'm on track to qualify for the battery replacement before 60,000 miles?
Click to expand...

The best calculation I have found for if you will hit the battery replacement is in Tuning the battery aging model.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You will need to get an Ahr reading on your battery pack with the Leaf Spy app. The App is well worth the 15 bucks for the pro version.
Lots of good information on your battery pack.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Garaged in San Ramon during night. Parked in mostly shade in Hayward near the Bay during the day.
cwerdna said:
^^^
Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

As for "relatively mild Bay Area climate", it really depends on where. Folks who live in places like SF, Half Moon Bay, Pacifica, etc. have very mild climates. Those who live in say Walnut Creek and Concord have it much hotter in the summer.

Example average highs below:
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/94044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/USCA0459" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/94598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/USCA0247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click to expand...
 
ChipsLeaf said:
Bay Area Leaf
Lost first bar Oct 9, 2013
Mileage 28,600
Received vehicle May 12, 2011

Anyone have a guess if I'm on track to qualify for the battery replacement before 60,000 miles?
Click to expand...

I think you are going to just miss the warranty. :(
I received my LEAF same month and I believe I have maybe 50/50 chance.
Best of luck.
 
ChipsLeaf said:
Garaged in San Ramon during night. Parked in mostly shade in Hayward near the Bay during the day.
Click to expand...
In the summer, I'm guessing San Ramon garaged at night is probably about the same temp as the Hayward daytime max. I sometimes ride between the two, and there's typically at least a 10 degree difference in the max temps, often 15 degrees. Especially if you're down near the Bay/airport. Being east of the hills is often worse temp-wise than being in the south bay.

I think you're going to be close.
 
TimLee said:
I think most of the LEAF drivers that regularly drive to LBW or VLBW have bought devices to know where they are on status of charge.
Click to expand...
I drove my 2011 12,750 miles before exchanging it for a 2013. During that time I went below LBW 68 times, and 14 of those times I went below VLBW. Only once did I go to Turtle, and that was just as an experiment, driving around the block near home for the last couple of miles. Unlike Tim's guess, I never had any external device. I did keep close track of trip mileage at LBW and VLBW, and used Tony's rule of thumb that the distance from VLBW to Turtle was half the distance from LBW to VLBW.

My total mileage was low, and my climate not too bad, though we do have a number of days over 100°F each summer. The car always sat outside and nearly always charged at night -- usually to 80%. Even on the hottest days the nights cool to below 90°.

I didn't have data to allow any sort of accurate battery capacity calculation, but rough estimates based on miles, m/kWh, and charge bars suggest that I might have lost 2% to 5% capacity, but probably not much more than that, in the nearly 13K I drove the car. This leaves me with the impression that using DOD below 80% is not significantly harmful. I do have a different impression about going below VLBW (~90% DOD), though. I remember seeing a graph (perhaps from TickTock?) that showed a sharp knee in the voltage drop at about VLBW. I'm no battery expert, and you'll have to excuse the anthropomorphism, but that looked to me like a scream of pain from the battery.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
TimLee said:
I think most of the LEAF drivers that regularly drive to LBW or VLBW have bought devices to know where they are on status of charge.
Click to expand...

I did keep close track of trip mileage at LBW and VLBW, and used Tony's rule of thumb that the distance from VLBW to Turtle was half the distance from LBW to VLBW.

but that looked to me like a scream of pain from the battery.

Ray
Click to expand...

I do go below LBW fairly frequently (once a week or so) but rarely to VLBW (fear of battery degradation, but I don't think there is much field data to support that fear). I avoid Turtle, but have done it twice in testing.

For those w/o a meter for measuring SOC and have a May 2013 or later Leaf, I think the most reliable indication of "near turtle" is to use the disappearance of the last fuel bar, seems to occur at 7 mi before turtle. (Boomers data suggest the last fuel bar disappears at 4 mi, driving at 4.0mi/kwh)

Ray,

Love the "scream of pain" :lol: :lol:

Have you checked your 2013 to see if "Tony's Rule" still holds? My 2013 actually has more miles between VLBW and Turtle (18) than between LBW and VLBW(10 miles at 4.5 mi/kwh). While there have only been a few people reporting, it appears that the Leafs made in May or later have many more miles between VLBW and turtle than the 2011 and 2012 Leafs. Not sure about the 2013s made before May.

Since you now have a meter, do you now go below LBW more often?

I don't go to Turtle except for testing (twice in my S, once in my wife's SV) but now keep a chart in the cars, based on a combination of my tests and Boomers:

Distance to Turtle vs SOC (LeafSpy, LBA, etc- not the dashboard SOC)(at 4.5mi/kwh)

12%=10mi
9%=8
7%=5
6%=4
5%=3
4%=2
2.6%=1
1.6%=Turtle
 
I think a lot of us with '11 and '12 LEAFs who live in the South Bay (SF Bay Area) are going to be concerned about being qualified for battery replacement before 60K.

I've just crossed 40K miles at 25 months (lost 1 capacity bar at 35K). I started charging the car at L1 overnight during the past summer, and only started putting the car back in the garage again during the past 2 weeks to charge at L2. The car mostly sits in the shade on weekdays in Cupertino.

The car is still mostly useful, though Blink's demise (along with poor reliability of the Blink DCFC units) and uncertainty of when/if those existing units will be replaced and repaired have put a damper on trips to SF from SJ on the 101 corridor.

I have mostly charged to 100% overnight on a daily basis during the past summer (on L1), drive-off within 2 hours after 100% charge. Only QC'ed once during the past summer (ambient temp at ~65 in each case). Before summer 2013, I had QC'ed at least 2 to 3 times per month.

At this rate, I will likely hit 52-55K by 36 months (lower than the 1600 miles/month I've been averaging, given more trips needed on the ICE). Forecasting possible 2 bar loss at 60K--2 bars short of the 4 bar minimum.

Will be interesting on what Nissan presents for options (if any) on the battery lease plan, battery purchase, T&C/exit on battery lease, etc.

I'm sure I'm echoing a lot of people here--the LEAF had surpassed our expectations in many ways, and met 90% of our needs (EXCEPT on the battery capacity issue). Never would have thought that our South San SJ climate would even be remotely "severe" enough to degrade the battery. Or made me paranoid about how hot the battery gets during the day (even in early autumn or late spring), or paranoid about how hot the garage gets in 3 out of 4 seasons of the year (garage gets to the 80s in the summer and ICE in garage keeps garage in the 70s in spring and autumn). Guess I wasn't paranoid--it truly is the reality.

I don't have Android, and I decided to get the LEAF DD unit instead. I probably should have done that earlier, but better now rather than later.

Ivan Jue

ChipsLeaf said:
Bay Area Leaf
Lost first bar Oct 9, 2013
Mileage 28,600
Received vehicle May 12, 2011

It doesn't appear that I will have 80% capacity at 5 years and 70% capacity at 10 years even in the relatively mild Bay Area climate.

Anyone have a guess if I'm on track to qualify for the battery replacement before 60,000 miles?
Click to expand...
 
planet4ever said:
I didn't have data to allow any sort of accurate battery capacity calculation, but rough estimates based on miles, m/kWh, and charge bars suggest that I might have lost 2% to 5% capacity, but probably not much more than that, in the nearly 13K I drove the car. This leaves me with the impression that using DOD below 80% is not significantly harmful. I do have a different impression about going below VLBW (~90% DOD), though. I remember seeing a graph (perhaps from TickTock?) that showed a sharp knee in the voltage drop at about VLBW. I'm no battery expert, and you'll have to excuse the anthropomorphism, but that looked to me like a scream of pain from the battery.

Ray
Click to expand...

Last time I was down at VLBW (24/25 Gids) I seem to recall the voltages were still a healthy bit above 3.6V (which btw some recommend as the ideal storage voltage). When you get down towards 10 Gids or so the voltage is dropping like a rock (a scream of pain, if you will..) As a general rule of thumb you probably don't want to be doing heavy discharges when your cells are down at 3.2 volts(!).. but everything seems perfectly normal and happy between LBW and VLBW and probably even a bit below VLBW. On the LeafDD I graph instantaneous pack voltage down to 330V (3.4V/cell) but hardly ever see it get that low. I would think if you can keep the voltage over 3.6V (345V) you've got nothing to worry about... That's probably around 15-20Gids(?), well below VLBW.
Edit: Just took it down to 10Gids last night to have another look. Everything is fine between LBW and VLBW but by VLBW things are starting to fall apart.. At VLBW pack was down to 350-355v (not bad) and cell to cell deviations had risen from about 16mv to 50-60mv.. Still not so bad. But from VLBW (24) down to 10 Gids, the wheels more or less came off.
28 Gids 355v 45mv dev
21 Gids 350v 100mv dev
18 Gids 347v 135mv dev
14 Gids 339v 170mv dev
10 Gids 335v 200mv dev
I realize I could have gone a bit further before my low cell (#1) brings out the turtle, but that's low enough for me. So in sum, LBW no big deal.. VLBW not so bad.. But you probably don't want to get too close to the turtle if you can help it..
 
Unfortunately for many of us, myself included, the loss of capacity and range has overwhelmed all the other positives and swamped the expectations...

CayenneSJLEAFy said:
I'm sure I'm echoing a lot of people here--the LEAF had surpassed our expectations in many ways, and met 90% of our needs (EXCEPT on the battery capacity issue).
Click to expand...
 
does the LEAF DD give you Ahr? if so, what Ahr did you lose your first bar and what are you at now?


CayenneSJLEAFy said:
I think a lot of us with '11 and '12 LEAFs who live in the South Bay (SF Bay Area) are going to be concerned about being qualified for battery replacement before 60K.

I've just crossed 40K miles at 25 months (lost 1 capacity bar at 35K). I started charging the car at L1 overnight during the past summer, and only started putting the car back in the garage again during the past 2 weeks to charge at L2. The car mostly sits in the shade on weekdays in Cupertino.

The car is still mostly useful, though Blink's demise (along with poor reliability of the Blink DCFC units) and uncertainty of when/if those existing units will be replaced and repaired have put a damper on trips to SF from SJ on the 101 corridor.

I have mostly charged to 100% overnight on a daily basis during the past summer (on L1), drive-off within 2 hours after 100% charge. Only QC'ed once during the past summer (ambient temp at ~65 in each case). Before summer 2013, I had QC'ed at least 2 to 3 times per month.

At this rate, I will likely hit 52-55K by 36 months (lower than the 1600 miles/month I've been averaging, given more trips needed on the ICE). Forecasting possible 2 bar loss at 60K--2 bars short of the 4 bar minimum.

Will be interesting on what Nissan presents for options (if any) on the battery lease plan, battery purchase, T&C/exit on battery lease, etc.

I'm sure I'm echoing a lot of people here--the LEAF had surpassed our expectations in many ways, and met 90% of our needs (EXCEPT on the battery capacity issue). Never would have thought that our South San SJ climate would even be remotely "severe" enough to degrade the battery. Or made me paranoid about how hot the battery gets during the day (even in early autumn or late spring), or paranoid about how hot the garage gets in 3 out of 4 seasons of the year (garage gets to the 80s in the summer and ICE in garage keeps garage in the 70s in spring and autumn). Guess I wasn't paranoid--it truly is the reality.

I don't have Android, and I decided to get the LEAF DD unit instead. I probably should have done that earlier, but better now rather than later.

Ivan Jue

ChipsLeaf said:
Bay Area Leaf
Lost first bar Oct 9, 2013
Mileage 28,600
Received vehicle May 12, 2011

It doesn't appear that I will have 80% capacity at 5 years and 70% capacity at 10 years even in the relatively mild Bay Area climate.

Anyone have a guess if I'm on track to qualify for the battery replacement before 60,000 miles?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Lost first bar Oct 13, 2013
Mileage 37,500
Received vehicle June 2011
San Francisco Bay Area

L2 Charge to 100% every night
L3 Charged once
 
I expect to hit it about 4 months before my lease is up... Assuming that comes to pass, it will be interesting to see Nissan's stance on replacing the battery that close to lease turn-in...

Weatherman said:
It sure seems like a lot of Californians are going to be "close but no cigar" when it comes to getting a replacement battery under warranty.
Click to expand...
 

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