AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:48 am

Musk's article has already been linked. I'm a fan, but that doesn't make him perfect. This, for example, appears to be quite wrong:
Musk goes on to state that even given the very best hydrogen technology, it doesn’t come close to the energy density of a modern lithium-ion battery pack like that found in the Model S.
We had fuel cells with twice the energy density of lithium in 2005, and equipment on the bench today has about eight times the energy density.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Fuel-Cel ... 6787.shtml
http://www.parc.com/content/attachments ... e_parc.pdf
Horizon Fuel Cell Aeropak - airborne fuel cells exceed 800Wh/kg
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!copy-o ... tions/ccm4
Image


It appears that he, like many here, are looking at only the personal car slice of the picture. I'm not surprised, considering this is an EV forum and most of you are fairly well educated - by a system that's concentrated for more than 100 years on taking things apart to examine progressively smaller pieces.

In case some haven't groked fully yet, we have a serious problem on this planet and we simply don't have time for painfully slow evolutionary processes. We need people that can see things from a systems perspective - from a big picture - and that can take the required steps to help us out of the hole we're in.

Most world leaders that understand this are 'terrified' according to Rifkin, who's been advising many of them for more than 10 years and is the architect of the plan that basically kept Germany out of the worldwide recession that we're still wallowing in. Their ability to understand the reality of the situation we're in is what's motivating far-right conservatives to work with socialists.

This is the most progressive group I've yet seen. If you folks can't wrap your minds around this, I'm not sure there's hope for our country. And that terrifies me.
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walterbays
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:01 pm

Musk's "energy density" reference seemed doubtful, and I wonder what he really meant by that. The chart you posted looks more like what I'd expect.
AndyH wrote:It appears that he, like many here, are looking at only the personal car slice of the picture.
In a post-oil future I expect that heavy trucks and many medium duty trucks will be hydrogen fueled. I also expect hydrogen to be an important energy storage medium for renewable energy generation. And like most on this forum I don't expect hydrogen fueled personal cars to be prevalent because they will not compete favorably with battery vehicles.

*If* my guesses are right, then the question is how to get there. I don't think a good path is to spend $200M to install a wholly inadequate number of fueling stations for private cars, failing to jump start a fuel cell private car market that is doomed to fail anyway. One better path would be to spend that $200M to install 4,000 more BEV quick charge stations which would probably be adequate to propel the BEV market into the mainstream. Another better path would be to spend that $200M to install hydrogen fueling stations at a few selected locations at trucking company depots, truck stops, and truck scale stations, subsidize some R&D towards building fuel cell heavy trucks, and buying a few prototype trucks to test. Another better path would be to build a hydrogen energy storage facility at a renewable energy plant. Best location would probably be West Texas wind farms but this being California money, maybe a desert solar plant...

ydnas7
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:49 pm

walterbays wrote:Musk's "energy density" reference seemed doubtful, and I wonder what he really meant by that. The chart you posted looks more like what I'd expect.
Musk's energy density regarding storage would be referring to volumetric energy density, not weight energy density. And be automotive focused. Take a Tesla Model S or an Honda Clarity, ignore the cost and space taken up by the fuel stack and the second HV battery for fast acceleration/regenrative braking.
The space taken up li ion cells per mile is similar to a 700bar H2 system and significantly better than a 350 bar H2 system. In all liklihood the cost is probably similar as well, although if current CE hydrogen is any predictor, Li ion is probably signifantly cheaper as well.

or to put it another way, Take a tesla model S, replace the 18650 cells with custom made 350bar or 700 bar H2 canistors (but laid flat) and place a fuel cell stack and a HV battery in the frunk, and the range will be similar for the 700bar system but the 350 bar system will be significanlty less range.

More likely, some the HV battery would be kept and the range of the 700 bar H2 tesla would be less than its plain Jane 18650 equivalent. 700 bar H2 would still be classified as a future automotive technology, Tesla's li-ion cells are in mass production and use today. I don't think anyone is currently wishing to go higher than 700bar H2, for cost, and safety, and infrastucture reasons, (actually i would say for H2, even 700bar is somewhat begrudingly targetted for use, 350bar would've been preferred (CNG being safer and simpler, 700bar is good)

AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:04 pm

ydnas7 wrote:
walterbays wrote:Musk's "energy density" reference seemed doubtful, and I wonder what he really meant by that. The chart you posted looks more like what I'd expect.
Musk's energy density regarding storage would be referring to volumetric energy density, not weight energy density. And be automotive focused. Take a Tesla Model S or an Honda Clarity, ignore the cost and space taken up by the fuel stack and the second HV battery for fast acceleration/regenrative braking.
I'd be interested in reading if you'd care to provide a source for your fuel cell/battery comparisons, especially since the Hyundai Tucson fuel cell SUV we've mentioned has a 700 bar system pressure and an estimated max range of about 471 miles. Thanks.
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/hta ... yundai.pdf
Although Hyundai has been developing its fuel cell vehicles for more than 15 years, it is only with the start of a viable hydrogen refueling network in place that it is considering putting a fuel cell car into series production, the company said.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/07 ... 30721.html

This, I think, is a key point to remember for our BEV-centric comparisons:
“Designed for Transport for London, the (fuel cell) system saves fuel, allowing these vehicles to operate for up to nineteen hours without refueling.”
http://www.ballard.com/fuel-cell-applications/bus.aspx

We've had fuel cell buses on the road since about 2007 and they've driven more than 3 million miles. There are plenty of other well-proven fuel cell vehicles available that are not in competition with BEVs, current or near future.

Instead of a turbine EV extender trailer, why not a FCEL range extender? Even if it reformed CNG, it would emit less CO2 per kWh than burning the same CNG...
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GRA
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:30 pm

AndyH wrote:
ydnas7 wrote:
walterbays wrote:Musk's "energy density" reference seemed doubtful, and I wonder what he really meant by that. The chart you posted looks more like what I'd expect.
Musk's energy density regarding storage would be referring to volumetric energy density, not weight energy density. And be automotive focused. Take a Tesla Model S or an Honda Clarity, ignore the cost and space taken up by the fuel stack and the second HV battery for fast acceleration/regenrative braking.
I'd be interested in reading if you'd care to provide a source for your fuel cell/battery comparisons, especially since the Hyundai Tucson fuel cell SUV we've mentioned has a 700 bar system pressure and an estimated max range of about 471 miles. Thanks.
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/hta ... yundai.pdf
And then there's this, from the Toyota FCHV wiki:

"In 2007 a FCHV was driven 560 km (350 mi) between Osaka and Tokyo on a single tank of hydrogen, proving that a hydrogen vehicle could compete with conventional vehicles for range. In August 2009, Toyota USA announced an estimated FCHV-adv range of 690 km (430 mi) from a 6 kg (13 lb) tank of hydrogen, based on a 331.5-mile (533.5 km) test trip in "real-world" conditions between Torrance and San Diego, California.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FCHV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of these Highlander-based 10,000 PSI/700 bar FCHV-ADVs lives at a house in my neighborhood, usually parked alongside a LEAF and a couple of small CUVs. It apparently weighs 4,145 lb. (1,880 kg) using the previous generation fuel cell (the current cell apparently has 3 x [Edit: 2 x] the power density), which is about 500 lb. lighter than a Tesla S-85. Given the relatively barn-door CdA of the Highlander compared to the S, it seems pretty clear that even at typical U.S. freeway cruising speeds a sedan version will have a range well beyond 300 miles, perhaps even 400.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:51 am

its great that prototypes are doing well but what have they done as far as leakage? compressed Hydrogen leaks at the minimal rate of roughly 2% per day. that means a two week trip will find a third of your tank leaked away. does not bode well for parking it at the airport unless they have a station on premises.

and how long will these tanks last? super high pressures means fatigue and betting we would rather buy new batteries than a new hydrogen tank.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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RegGuheert
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:24 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:its great that prototypes are doing well but what have they done as far as leakage? compressed Hydrogen leaks at the minimal rate of roughly 2% per day. that means a two week trip will find a third of your tank leaked away. does not bode well for parking it at the airport unless they have a station on premises.
That sounds a bit like the Tesla Model S, though assumedly the hydrogen would leak faster at high temperatures while the Model S leaks faster at low temperatures.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:32 am

RegGuheert wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:its great that prototypes are doing well but what have they done as far as leakage? compressed Hydrogen leaks at the minimal rate of roughly 2% per day. that means a two week trip will find a third of your tank leaked away. does not bode well for parking it at the airport unless they have a station on premises.
That sounds a bit like the Tesla Model S, though assumedly the hydrogen would leak faster at high temperatures while the Model S leaks faster at low temperatures.
well, i can only reference data from 2006?? (or earlier maybe) but there is a minimal 1.7% leakage daily. that is only the beginning of the issues
Hydrogen is the smallest element and, as such, it can leak from any container, no matter how well sealed it is. Hydrogen in storage will evaporate at a rate of at least 1.7% per day. We will not be able to store hydrogen vehicles in buildings. Nor can we allow them to sit in the sun. And as hydrogen passes through metal, it causes a chemical reaction that makes the metal brittle. Leaking hydrogen could also have an adverse effect on both global warming and the ozone layer.
Free hydrogen is extremely reactive. It is ten times more flammable than gasoline, and twenty times more explosive. And the flame of a hydrogen fire is invisible. This makes it very dangerous to work with, particularly in fueling stations and transportation vehicles. Traffic accidents would have a tendency to be catastrophic. And there is the possibility that aging vehicles could explode even without a collision.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:23 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:its great that prototypes are doing well but what have they done as far as leakage? compressed Hydrogen leaks at the minimal rate of roughly 2% per day. that means a two week trip will find a third of your tank leaked away. does not bode well for parking it at the airport unless they have a station on premises.

and how long will these tanks last? super high pressures means fatigue and betting we would rather buy new batteries than a new hydrogen tank.
The high leak rate appears to apply to cryogenic storage not high-pressure storage, though I'm still looking for actual tested permeation rates for modern carbon fiber tanks with PTFE liners. Anyone?


http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center/Lib ... rogenMyths

http://withouthotair.blogspot.com/2013/ ... rogen.html

http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/re ... 5%20EN.pdf
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GRA
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:29 pm

The most recent studies I've been able to find with a cursory search are here:

http://web.ornl.gov/sci/eere/research_f ... rage.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Haven't read them yet, but it discusses CFRP as well as metal hydride and nanotube storage tanks.

BTW, finally got around to reading the California Fuel Cell Partnership's "Roadmap: Bringing Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles to the Golden State", which was published in June 2012,

http://cafcp.org/sites/files/A%20Califo ... n%29_1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It doesn't raise any points which haven't already been raised here, but does go into more detail. I was particularly interested to see how well my guesstimates as to needed station deployment matched up with theirs. With a few exceptions for obvious destinations and connectors, I was only able to predict the need for stations in fairly large areas, while the automakers have far better (and proprietary) demographic info on where they expect the early adopters to be, and can be far more precise (I imagine down to specific zip codes if not neighborhoods). Worth a read in any case, as it's only 28 easy pages.

Edit: Googling "CFRP hydrogen tank leakage rates" brought up the above source, and also the following link to a book titled "Hydrogen Storage Technologies: New Materials, Transport and Infrastructure".

http://books.google.com/books?id=VmA1n5 ... es&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clicking on the link will take you to a short section on CFRP tank materials, liners and leakage.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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