New Nissan LEAF Survey

DanCar said:

Hmmm, does that mean the 2015 Nissan Leaf will look like the Infiniti LE?

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don't know, but there could be room for both a hatch and a sedan. there is a lot of boot space in the Sentra sedan, as well as underbody potental.
(ie 48 modules under body, 24 modules in boot)
ie 50% increase in cell count + 30% due to voltage increase = 1.95 increase in kWh ie sufficient to get to 150mile EPA from a 84mile EPA start

It sounds like Nissan is considering QC installations country wide and was trying to figure out where to place them. From my answers, the best places would probably be fast food or coffee shops (assuming the 15 minutes charge time they suggested). That way I have the option of using the bathroom or running in for a coffee or quick bite to eat.

As far as 150 mile range, I told Nissan I would be unlikely to consider another 75-mile LEAF, but would definitely consider a 150-mile LEAF. I'm actually considering going for a Volt for my next car after what this winter has thrown at me. But a 150-mile LEAF with nationwide quick charge would definitely make me reconsider.

DO IT, NISSAN.

You know, something just occurred to me. I've often wondered about the logic of Nissan installing a bunch of charging stations because all that will do is make ALL electric cars more viable and thus help increase competition at Nissan's own expense. Tesla gets around this because their superchargers are proprietary. However, since it appears Nissan is going to go-it-alone on the Chademo standard, you might be able to argue that Nissan has their own proprietary standard as well. I realize Mitsubishi uses Chademo, but their market presence is so small it doesn't matter. So, I could see them investing heavily in Chademo stations because those stations will only benefit the Leaf, but will not benefit Ford, Chevy, BMW, or just about anyone else.

Which is sort of irritating. Personally, I'd like to see a large distribution of L2 stations with maybe a 10 to 1 ratio of L2 to L3. My reasoning has always been that I'd rather see L2 stations in every parking lot, which are much cheaper to install, than have a few L3 stations scattered around the area.

L2 are useless, L1 are better for 8 hour parking at work and much cheaper. DCQC Chademo are game changers for a metro area. 20 minute for 80% charging can't be beat.

at work, there are free L1 and Blink L2.
I use the L1 mostly, but on some days, when I need a full charge for a trip not straight home after work, I use the L2.

the same issues apply to all the unsophisticated questions at the survey, which asks questions and offer answers that dont support any answers that would show people want different fees, different waits, different levels of charge for different circumstances.
I would be fine with a restaurant that has L2 if it were 50 miles from home, but if it were 80, I would want L3.

i said i would pay a 3k premium for a 2x battery. the max payment was 5k.

If max retail cost to double the battery is $5,000..... Why can't Nissan sell us a replacement battery for $5,000 maybe even less?

I worry that the current LEAF frame cannot take gracefully take much more increase in weight. Wouldn't a large portion of the extra cells take up trunk space and cause more of front/rear mass imbalance?

I also don't like the idea of the excess wear and tear I'd put on the roads by driving a heavier vehicle.

Personally, I'd be happy for only 4-8 kWh more, achieved mostly by increased energy density, so no increase in weight. Tack on replacing steel by aluminum, less frontal area, and a robust network of DCQC and I'd have no complaints

adric22 said:

You know, something just occurred to me. I've often wondered about the logic of Nissan installing a bunch of charging stations because all that will do is make ALL electric cars more viable and thus help increase competition at Nissan's own expense. Tesla gets around this because their superchargers are proprietary. However, since it appears Nissan is going to go-it-alone on the Chademo standard, you might be able to argue that Nissan has their own proprietary standard as well. I realize Mitsubishi uses Chademo, but their market presence is so small it doesn't matter. So, I could see them investing heavily in Chademo stations because those stations will only benefit the Leaf, but will not benefit Ford, Chevy, BMW, or just about anyone else.

Which is sort of irritating. Personally, I'd like to see a large distribution of L2 stations with maybe a 10 to 1 ratio of L2 to L3. My reasoning has always been that I'd rather see L2 stations in every parking lot, which are much cheaper to install, than have a few L3 stations scattered around the area.

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CT is already installing CHAdeMO, MA and VT in the near future. They may also add Frankenplugs later, but for now it's all CHAdeMO. A Tesla with the new adapter can also use them. Tesla drivers must be pleased.

smkettner said:

If max retail cost to double the battery is $5,000..... Why can't Nissan sell us a replacement battery for $5,000 maybe even less?

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Actually, I've been saying for a while now that I suspect Nissan's cost on the Leaf battery pack is somewhere around $5,000 to $6,000. And I expect that price to drop even more several years from now.

smkettner said:

If max retail cost to double the battery is $5,000..... Why can't Nissan sell us a replacement battery for $5,000 maybe even less?

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Because they don't earn CARB-ZEV credits on replacement battery sales?

ydnas7 said:

(ie 48 modules under body, 24 modules in boot)
ie 50% increase in cell count + 30% due to voltage increase = 1.95 increase in kWh ie sufficient to get to 150mile EPA from a 84mile EPA start

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You're not going to see a significant increase in voltage over ~400V maximum since all the QC stations are pretty much limited to 500V maximum. There is probably a very good reason why all electrified vehicles are all around 400V maximum - namely that higher voltages are harder to handle.

I suppose at some point in time we'll see 1000V systems, but not really necessary for automobiles. Perhaps trucks and other vehicles with large storage requirements. 1000V would be useful for extremely quick charging to reduce cable size, but perhaps an onboard DC-DC inverter would be used on-board to reduce the 1000V to pack voltage.

braineo said:

L2 are useless, L1 are better for 8 hour parking at work and much cheaper. DCQC Chademo are game changers for a metro area. 20 minute for 80% charging can't be beat.

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I disagree, there are a lot of middle ground scenarios that L2 (3-20 kW) works very well for. In fact, I'd like to see more vehicles go with 10-20kW onboard charging like Tesla rather than being limited to 3.3-6.6 kW like the majority of plug-ins today (PHEVs included). The charging stations are a lot cheaper than DCQC stations, too, and at 20kW gets you a lot of range in an hour, or a typical meal break. 10-20 kW charging for a PHEV would let them completely refill over lunch, doubling EV miles, instead of just adding about 10.

adric22 said:

smkettner said:

If max retail cost to double the battery is $5,000..... Why can't Nissan sell us a replacement battery for $5,000 maybe even less?

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Actually, I've been saying for a while now that I suspect Nissan's cost on the Leaf battery pack is somewhere around $5,000 to $6,000. And I expect that price to drop even more several years from now.

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All good questions/points - I have to wonder if the survey targeted the wrong people (current LEAF owners) in terms of battery cost. Most of us really see the value of additional range and are familiar with Tesla's cost of $10k for 25 kWh and a low-end price of the pack being around $5000 (what one can buy almost new cells for off eBay).

Nissan limiting us to $5000 maximum to double the EPA range (or add about 24 kWh of battery capacity) was a surprise to me. I answered about $3500, but I might find it worth up to $5000 over the current cost of a LEAF. But a non-EV owner would probably expect 150 EPA range at the same price as the current LEAF - and that's really who Nissan should be asking about cost.

smkettner said:

If max retail cost to double the battery is $5,000..... Why can't Nissan sell us a replacement battery for $5,000 maybe even less?

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interesting question.

drees said:

Nissan limiting us to $5000 maximum to double the EPA range (or add about 24 kWh of battery capacity) was a surprise to me. I answered about $3500, but I might find it worth up to $5000 over the current cost of a LEAF. But a non-EV owner would probably expect 150 EPA range at the same price as the current LEAF - and that's really who Nissan should be asking about cost.

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I got the impression the 24Kwh version would still be offered on the low-end. So that means ANY buyer would have the choice of two battery packs and this the difference in price is sort of important.

drees said:

ydnas7 said:

(ie 48 modules under body, 24 modules in boot)
ie 50% increase in cell count + 30% due to voltage increase = 1.95 increase in kWh ie sufficient to get to 150mile EPA from a 84mile EPA start

Click to expand...

You're not going to see a significant increase in voltage over ~400V maximum since all the QC stations are pretty much limited to 500V maximum. There is probably a very good reason why all electrified vehicles are all around 400V maximum - namely that higher voltages are harder to handle.

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By voltage increase I'm referring to cells that operate at a higher voltage, http://www.nec.com/en/press/201210/global_20121009_02.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't know Chademo voltage limits, but if there is either
more cells in parallel (for increased Ah)
or less cells in series (due to higher voltage per cell)
then a redesign of the pack would be necessary

(

DanCar said:

Berlino said:

Hasn't the Infiniti BEV been shelved?

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It will be taken off the shelf, after new battery is available.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20130717/OEM05/130719873/infiniti-ev-delayed-to-await-new-technology-exec-says#axzz2rq6BcYDY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Oh boy I am so excited. Another Nissan product with passive thermal Battery management. I sure hope they offer the same GOM, as well as mediocre customer care. Most important - allude that the on board charger will be upgradable, to future Gen II specs. Then deny it, along with any & all range claims

.
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Berlino said:

I worry that the current LEAF frame cannot take gracefully take much more increase in weight. Wouldn't a large portion of the extra cells take up trunk space and cause more of front/rear mass imbalance?

I also don't like the idea of the excess wear and tear I'd put on the roads by driving a heavier vehicle.

Personally, I'd be happy for only 4-8 kWh more, achieved mostly by increased energy density, so no increase in weight. Tack on replacing steel by aluminum, less frontal area, and a robust network of DCQC and I'd have no complaints

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I'm almost positive that the battery will be the same size and of a similar weight. Ghosn has been pretty clear that they are interested in utilizing the same size battery (to paraphrase: "it's boring to stuff more batteries in a car; far more interesting to increase capacity in the same size for less money"), and if their new NMC chemistry is at the heart of this increase, they can do it with similar weight too.

I really hope that they are planning on using the original LEAF battery dimensions as a design guideline going forward so that they can be as interchangeable as possible. Early comments from Nissan seem to support this. I hope this isn't just wishful thinking on my part though.

If the battery actually lasted, it would be a great vehicle for a lot of uses. Not holding my breath on either the range or the longevity of the battery.[/quote]

Nissan has their new Desert Battery being released in April that has been tested at over 140F day and night. It could make a big difference. I call it the Lizard battery!
Tesla also no longer makes the 40 KW model S so it's an open area for Nissan and others to step into. 100+ mile range could be closer.

BoulderLeaf said:

I really hope that they are planning on using the original LEAF battery dimensions as a design guideline going forward so that they can be as interchangeable as possible. Early comments from Nissan seem to support this. I hope this isn't just wishful thinking on my part though.

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I hope your right. If so, we might see the new battery as an option on the existing bodystyle so we could see this on a 2014 or 2015 Leaf. However, I'm personally thinking less than a 20% chance this will happen. More likely that they will be doing this for a new bodystyle with more room for batteries.

SalisburySam said:

Got mine yesterday also, almost finished it, then it began asking the typical demographic questions about gender, annual income, and the like. Unfortunately, these required mandatory answers which I prefer to not do so I exited the survey and my input was lost to Nissan.
.

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Yet you publish your license plate on a public internet forum... :?:

adric22 said:

thankyouOB said:

Not necessarily. Nissan has already demonstrated a Leaf with a 48Wkh battery pack. Very few details about this pack have been released, but we know it exists. Tesla, however, has not demonstrated a Model-E, or even so much as shown us a rendering of what it will look like.

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Range is not the only strong suit of Tesla's, the battery does much better in Arizona, than the Leaf's