V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

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edatoakrun

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7/19/15 edited thread title to include non-stationary applications

6/30/16 edited thread title to include V to G use, while the packs remain in BEVs.

IMO, Nissan is the only BEV manufacturer that seems to understand that the economic viability of BEVs is, to a considerable extent, dependent on making full use of the battery life cycle, with initial use in BEVs, then in stationary applications after they lose energy density.

Good to see the first commercial repurposing of LEAF batteries, though I wouldn't call 400 kWh (I don't think that figure could be correct, if from only sixteen batteries) "large scale".

Sumitomo installs first large-scale power system using used EV batteries

8 February 2014

Sumitomo Corporation has developed and installed the first large-scale power storage system which utilizes used batteries collected from electric vehicles. This commercial scale storage system, built on Yume-shima Island, Osaka, will begin operating in February 2014.

Sumitomo Corporation created the joint venture company, 4R Energy Corporation, in collaboration with Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. in September 2010, to address the secondary use of EV lithium-ion batteries. (Earlier post.) The used EV batteries that will be recycled into this large-scale storage system have been recovered and have gone through thorough inspection and maintenance at 4R, to confirm safety and performance. This prototype system (600kW/400kWh) consists of sixteen used EV batteries.

Over the next three years, the system will measure the smoothing effect of energy output fluctuation from the nearby “Hikari-no-mori,” solar farm, and will aim to establish a large-scale power storage technology by safely and effectively utilizing the huge quantities of discarded used EV batteries which will become available in the future...

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/02/20140208-sumitomo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
another reason why the SYB program is a loser.
some of us may want to repurpose our batteries for our own solar systems or other uses.
also, it has value, and having it taken without compensation is a bad business.
yes, i recognize that the $100-per-month-forever pricing may, in some fashion, take into account the value of the returned battery. if so, none of this has ever been explained, discussed or treated with transparency.
we are getting pretty far into 2014 now, and it is time for Nissan to return to the marketing/communication field about battery replacement.

helllo? anybody out there?
 
A publicity stunt is better than doing nothing at all. A proof of concept demonstration is even better. This is progress.

At 400kWh/16 packs, they are getting batteries with 25kWh still left in them. If "used up" means 70% left, I wonder which vehicles you can buy there that come with 36kWh packs. In a similar vein, I wonder if any LEAFs in Japan have started losing capacity. Maybe the owners are too polite to mention it.
 
thankyouOB said:
...some of us may want to repurpose our batteries for our own solar systems or other uses...

One of the reasons I both own my LEAF and try take reasonable care of my pack, is that I am a candidate for keeping my pack if I ever replace it.

If Nissan (or other pack rebuilders) don't offer a reasonable trade-in credit, I expect that others will probably give me the option of using my pack at home.
 
edatoakrun said:
thankyouOB said:
...some of us may want to repurpose our batteries for our own solar systems or other uses...

One of the reasons I both own my LEAF and try take reasonable care of my pack, is that I am a candidate for keeping my pack if I ever replace it.

If Nissan (or other pack rebuilders) don't offer a reasonable trade-in credit, I expect that others will probably give me the option of using my pack at home.


I expect Nissan is obliged to account for all batteries that are reused to go through official channels. (Be it them or some other company) So they can comply with 'recycling' requirements.

Some time ago a UK dealers piece was linked on this site, in it, there was even a recycing fee for the batteries that was only waived in case of vehicle theft.
 
Storage system powered by used Nissan batteries installed at Japanese solar farm
A large-scale storage system made by reusing electric vehicle batteries has been developed and deployed at a 10MW solar farm in south western Japan by Sumitomo Corporation.
...
The latest project has seen the JV, 4R Energy Corporation develop and install a 600kw/400kWh prototype system made with sixteen used lithium-ion batteries from Nissan’s Leaf model EV.
Now that Nissan has a good way to use the used modules from LEAFs, perhaps they will be ready to offer an upgrade plan with their next generation of batteries for LEAF owners low on capacity?
 
There is no way that the SYB program is ever going to see the light of day. It could work for new sales but there was no way that they were going to get those of us who bought our cars to buy into this scheme.

thankyouOB said:
another reason why the SYB program is a loser.
some of us may want to repurpose our batteries for our own solar systems or other uses.
also, it has value, and having it taken without compensation is a bad business.
yes, i recognize that the $100-per-month-forever pricing may, in some fashion, take into account the value of the returned battery. if so, none of this has ever been explained, discussed or treated with transparency.
we are getting pretty far into 2014 now, and it is time for Nissan to return to the marketing/communication field about battery replacement.

helllo? anybody out there?
 
http://insideevs.com/sumitomo-installs-large-scale-power-storage-system-using-16-old-nissan-leaf-batteries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My only quibble with the article is listing the system as 400 kwh. 16 * 24 kwh (for new batteries) = 384 kwh. I don't think those old batteries are going to total anywhere near 400 kwh.
 
Nice find! It's good to see that some used EV batteries finding a second life. It would be nice to see a block diagram and some photographs showing how this is implemented.

Now if we could only find a home for all of them! I would like to see a home power kit which allows one to build a home PV (or grid backup) system by using the modules (or complete batteries) from the used batteries from one or two LEAFs.
 
Is there an amount of degradation to where the leaf battery pack's loss of capacity levels off somewhat? What would it be? Just trying to find out how long they would last in a stationary application.
 
RegGuheert said:
Nice find! It's good to see that some used EV batteries finding a second life.....snip.....
I guess it's nice .... 16 premature deaths of Leaf traction packs ... unless they were one of yours.
:lol:
.
 
johnrhansen said:
Is there an amount of degradation to where the leaf battery pack's loss of capacity levels off somewhat? What would it be?
I cannot detect any slowing. One owner lost their fourth bar in about the same time as their second (from the previous bar under similar conditions).
johnrhansen said:
Just trying to find out how long they would last in a stationary application.
It depends on the application. For PV, the cycling may limit the further life. But for backup storage, you could perhaps keep it at 50% SOC in an air-conditioned space and get many years of life.

Also, let's consider that future batteries may have different (much slower) degradation rates at end of life in their EV role. Further consider that in the future the capacity may be higher at the beginning of life.
 
johnrhansen said:
Is there an amount of degradation to where the leaf battery pack's loss of capacity levels off somewhat? What would it be?
RegGuheert said:
I cannot detect any slowing.
A couple of highly coarse data points:
First bar: 16 months/10034 miles
Second bar: 11 months/6479 miles (at 16513 miles)
I hope the accelerating trend does not continue... A casual glance at the "real world losses" tables seems to indicate accelerating timeframe of subsequent bar losses but maybe it was just my skewed perspective.
 
aqn said:
A couple of highly coarse data points:
First bar: 16 months/10034 miles
Second bar: 11 months/6479 miles (at 16513 miles)
I hope the accelerating trend does not continue... A casual glance at the "real world losses" tables seems to indicate accelerating timeframe of subsequent bar losses but maybe it was just my skewed perspective.
Accelerating? Given that the first CB is a 15% loss and the second is a 6.25% loss, a casual look at your bar loss seems to suggest a slowing trend, not an accelerating one.

Of course, timing with regard to summer heat makes a huge difference. My capacity was declining steadily over the summer but a few months ago, with the onset of cold weather and battery temperatures at about 2 to 10ºC, the decline stopped dead. I expect it to resume as the weather warms. So, drawing straight lines across seasons isn't useful IME.
 
I'm afraid to say it, but I think the high hopes of using the first generation of Leaf batteries for energy storage are going to be shattered by the reality that these batteries appear to not just be wearing out gradually, but out right failing. A combination of dynamics, mostly heat, is leading to dramatic, accelerated decay. The decline curve is so harsh that I suspect they will be worthless, at least the ones replaced under warranty. they will most likely have to be recycled rather than re-purposed. I figure Nissan has one more real shot at this before the market turns away, hopefully this time, their heat tolerant batteries are actually heat tolerant. Feeling very good about trading in my 2012 loan for a 2012 Lease...likely washing my hands of Nissan in 2015 when the Lease runs out, unless things have really made a turn around with much more range at least as an option and much more durable batteries.
 
dgpcolorado said:
I expect it to resume as the weather warms. So, drawing straight lines across seasons isn't useful IME.
Agreed. I have concluded that until we get better data from someone with LEAFspy, the best we can do is to look at losses between bars 1 and 2 and between bars 3 and 4, and then only if they occur in the same season. I have only found one such data point::
As an example, consider member "cyellen" who experienced the loss of bars one and two during the summer of 2012 and bars three and four during the summer of 2013:
Bar 1 to 2: 73 days and 1400 miles
Bar 3 to 4: 64 days and 1500 miles
Just one data point (since we don't have much data), but it makes it clear that capacity loss does not slow down with degradation. Does it accelerate? It's not clear, but perhaps.
 
Given the preceding comments, I expect some of you folks are far too full of um...disinformation RE Leaf battery life to accept this, but you just might want to consider the estimate of typical~75% capacity after 14 years (in European climate conditions, and with a typically lower miles driven per year than in the USA, I would expect).


...Charging to the future

“Affordable and reliable batteries could have a second life in data centres and in the home, starting around 2020,” Nissan’s director for corporate planning, Redmer van der Meer told TechWeek at the launch of GreenDataNet.

Electric cars still have a tiny share of Europe’s car market, but each one holds a battery that can deliver 24kWh of energy. At the end of its life, that battery could be added to a big stack at a data centre, to provide back-up and also power that could smooth the peaks of demand, reducing the data centre’s load on the electric grid.

Van der Meer reckons an electric car will have a lifetime of around 14 years, after which time the battery’s performance will have degraded, but it will still hold around 18kWh. If electric cars take a significant share of Europe’s vehicle market, then there will be a sizeable number of battery modules available – though it will take hundreds of them to power a data centre for any length of time...

http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/eu-greendatanet-project-data-centres-car-batteries-141648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
Given the preceding comments, I expect some of you folks are far too full of um...disinformation RE Leaf battery life to accept this, but you just might want to consider the estimate of typical~75% capacity after 14 years (in European climate conditions, and with a typically lower miles driven per year than in the USA, I would expect).


so the first thought that comes to mind

50% of vehicles will not have 70% battery capacity after 14 years
temperature and distances, nederlands

Why don't people see a forecasted gradual degradation issue as a 50% liklihood of occurance? then look around, and guess who is on the wrong side of the 50%.
 
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