Networking the free DCQC chargers at Nissan dealers

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PaulScott said:
... We like the ability to set the price, and we were assured we could charge per kWh which I like a lot. We can also use it to incentivize customers by letting our customers use it for free, but a nominal charge for those who bought or leased from competing dealers.

Personally, I'd like to see relatively high (by time, kWh, or preferable both) charges at every public DC, to reduce the freeloader factor, in order to increase reliability.

Paul, what are Nissan Dealers doing or planning to do about DC capable EVs/PHEVs from manufacturers, other than Nissan?

Particularly, when/if Tesla gets their CHAdeMO adapter on the market?

There is a single DC (at Chico Nissan) along my ~200 mile route South to "northern" CA.

I'd hate get there, only to find a Tesla S plugged in there (or at any other DC site I needed to use) taking a multi-hour charge session.
 
I don't like this idea for three reasons...

First, the assumption is that dealer customers would take advantage of it. The problem with this theory is that, often, purchasers live near their dealer and thus would not often need a QC there..

Second, we are trying to expand the usability range of EVs. This would be at odds with that.

Third, a smart dealer could charge nothing and draw in the customers from other dealers around who do charge those who did not buy there...

PaulScott said:
We can also use it to incentivize customers by letting our customers use it for free, but a nominal charge for those who bought or leased from competing dealers.
 
TomT said:
I don't like this idea for three reasons...

First, the assumption is that dealer customers would take advantage of it. The problem with this theory is that, often, purchasers live near their dealer and thus would not often need a QC there..

Second, we are trying to expand the usability range of EVs. This would be at odds with that.

Third, a smart dealer could charge nothing and draw in the customers from other dealers around who do charge those who did not but there...

PaulScott said:
We can also use it to incentivize customers by letting our customers use it for free, but a nominal charge for those who bought or leased from competing dealers.
qcroadtrip


All fair points. I happen to know that a similar policy is being considered by another dealership, and you have to wonder if this is what will end up being implemented at most of them.

We have seen the rise of a new type of EV driver recently. These owners get the LEAF primarily for economic reasons, they often avoid installing a home charging station due to the associated cost, and are not shy to use free public charging at Nissan dealers and elsewhere. There was even a report of an owner, who would come to a Nissan dealership every morning, and demand the fob for the Sumitomo QC without even saying 'good morning' to anyone.

While these cases might be rare, they can and do occur. It's an important consideration when setting the charging policy, and I hope that most dealers will be smart when setting theirs, and will manage to avoid the worst abuse scenarios.

Here is a photo of a LEAF charging at a free Sumitomo QC at a Nissan facility. There was no clear policy set, and the owner called the police, when another owner approached him and asked if he could stop charging at 80%, and move to the adjacent level 2 charging station. The police did indeed show up, and found the whole situation 'ridiculous'. I'm posting this to highlight the importance of sound charging policy, and guidelines to prevent abuse and the so-called 'charge rage'.


nissanqcchargerage
 
surfingslovak said:
Here is a photo of a LEAF charging at a free Sumitomo QC at a Nissan facility.
What a douche-bag. Hopefully the police didn't ticket him for parking in a handicap spot or abusing the 911 system (this was an emergency? :roll:)

I would hope that Nissan dealers have the freedom to deny access to said charging infrastructure. They should share that list to keep these people from charging anywhere. It's pretty clear that free does not work unless man-power is willing to be spent to prevent douche-bags from abusing the system.

I wonder if ChargePoint can be set up to allow some amount of free charging per time period? Allow say 60 minutes of free charging in any rolling 30 day period - once that is exceeded, you are charged $0.25 / minute.

A scheme like that would still allow owners the perk of occasional free charging, but no real free-loading. The flat per-minute rate would also discourage people from charging over 80%.
 
I heard somebody mention one time that they would like to see a $10 charge at the beginning and it gets credited back if you disconnect before 30 minutes. I'm assuming that you'd also have to be sure that they did not immediately reconnect. Should be pretty easy to implement, and would keep people from using the space as a parking space. After 30 min on a DCQC, the charge rates are the same as a L2 J1772, so it should be no problem as far as speed goes.

Essentially charge some fee at the beginning that gives incentive to get done quickly and free up the charger for the next guy. You get the fee back if you cooperate.
 
drees said:
I wonder if ChargePoint can be set up to allow some amount of free charging per time period? Allow say 60 minutes of free charging in any rolling 30 day period - once that is exceeded, you are charged $0.25 / minute.

A scheme like that would still allow owners the perk of occasional free charging, but no real free-loading. The flat per-minute rate would also discourage people from charging over 80%.
Good idea.

Dealers might charge $0.25/minute (or $0.20/minute to match EVgo's alacarte price) and give coupons to their customers for free charging. Buy a car from them and get a handful of coupons. Bring your car in for regular maintenance and get a few coupons. Each coupon could even have a specific month(s) when it was valid so when you get a 6-month service you get 12 coupons which you can use two per month. To use a coupon enter the validation code and you get 20 minutes of free charging. Or instead of coupons just put virtual coupons on the Chargepoint card which doubles as the Nissan dealer's loyalty card.

Many businesses use similar schemes, e.g. Amazon certificates, grocery store gasoline discounts, and there's no reason Chargepoint couldn't implement it. It would let the dealer reward not only customers who bought the car there, but also customers who patronize his service department, in whatever measure he wishes.
 
Let's not forget ... as our traction packs diminish, in order to continue to make use of a vehicle that has a limited range from the get go ... we'll need QC's more frequently, just to get where we use to go w/out a charge. Older/worn packs will up the necessity for all of us to be QC'ing more frequently unles your daily commute is under 15-20 miles. Did Nissan factor that into the infrastructure equasion?
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Another vote for Chargepoint. They have really helped build charging infrastructure in Upstate NY. It's gone from 'virtually nothing' to "You can get a charge in most larger cities and exurbs." They should be rewarded for all the free charging so far.
 
PaulScott said:
We received a notice from Nissan that our first year of free charging may be coming to an end here at the dealer. They are giving us three choices. Please see the following and give me your opinion. We are on the fence, but currently leaning toward the Chargepoint option at our store (Nissan of Downtown LA). We can set a price with Chargepoint for users, but we can't with EVGO. EVGO has a better warranty of 4 years vs. 1 year with Chargepoint.
Paul, has the dealership made a decision yet ?
 
In Texas, our plans aren't quite as good as CA for Evgo. But they are reasonable.

I have:
Blink ($4.95 IIRC per month, month to month)
Chargepoint ($25 balance put on so the cards were free. Used only once so far for $0. So I still have a $25 balance.)
Evgo ($59.95 yearly, but unlimited L2 and $9.95 per session DC. Used it a few times on DC during the trial month. Have not used since.)
L1 at home
L2 at work for free. Blink.
$6/day at work for paid parking if free is occupied. $0 L2.
 
checked Oly Nissan yesterday morning and their pricing was $3 minimum or $10 a day!

unreal

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/03/nissan-dealer-charger-updates.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
PaulScott said:
We received a notice from Nissan that our first year of free charging may be coming to an end here at the dealer .......snip....
Just to clarify - by "We" - do you mean customers got notice from dealers - that 'free' is going away ... or does "We" mean (some) dealers received notice from corporate Nissan that they will no longer pick up costs. Presuming for the moment corporate has been picking up the bill for dealerships (installs, maintenance, and electricity cost?) - couldn't individual dealerships still choose to eat the cost their self, w/out passing it on to users? I'm all for paying anyway - but I'm just curious.

Afterthought to question(s) above - here's a novel idea .... whadaya think ... kind of a Tesla formula ... sell Leafs for a premium/higher price (too bad that can't also be a bigger battery :( ) and you get free priority charging (separate Chademo?) ... and the other folks get what ever pay-as-you-go formula that Nissan (corporate or dealers) wants to implement.
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hill said:
PaulScott said:
We received a notice from Nissan that our first year of free charging may be coming to an end here at the dealer .......snip....
Just to clarify - by "We" - do you mean customers got notice from dealers - that 'free' is going away ... or does "We" mean (some) dealers received notice from corporate Nissan that they will no longer pick up costs. Presuming for the moment corporate has been picking up the bill for dealerships (installs, maintenance, and electricity cost?) - couldn't individual dealerships still choose to eat the cost their self, w/out passing it on to users? I'm all for paying anyway - but I'm just curious.

Afterthought to question(s) above - here's a novel idea .... whadaya think ... kind of a Tesla formula ... sell Leafs for a premium/higher price (too bad that can't also be a bigger battery :( ) and you get free priority charging (separate Chademo?) ... and the other folks get what ever pay-as-you-go formula that Nissan (corporate or dealers) wants to implement.
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it was definitely dealer only communication and the free option is still a possibility although not likely. after more than a year of free charging queues, I MUCH rather see a cost associated but NOT a per session fee.
 
I see several attitudes toward QC pricing

1 Free
2 Priced per kwh
3 Priced per time spent charging
4 Priced to prohibit use or make high profits (penalties for being plugged in after charging, high flat fees, monthly or yearly membership fees, etcetera).

If you want to do free I'm OK with that, if you want to charge a minimal fee I'm OK with that too.

Reasonable fees to me are something like 2x the residential cost per kwh or a flat fee that approximates 1.5x the residential cost per kwh. In my state that is about 10 cents per kwh and so I'd be will to consider paying 20 cents per kwh for L3 charging at a max.

How many kwh am I going to pull from the charger in 25 to 30 minutes if I start from 30% soc and stop at 80% soc? Would that be something like 12 kwh? If so its something like $2 in electricity.

I'm not in favor of a flat fee as I might want to stop for a 10 minute charge if I'm short on range and I'd like to be able to pay half or one quarter of the price if I get half or one quarter of the energy. I don't want to feel like I have to stay for the extra 20 minutes to fill up because I paid a flat fee.

Some argue that free encourages people to stay and charge more than they need, I argue that in addition flat fees have a similar effect.
 
I would much rather find a charging station available and unoccupied than sit in a queue for a free charger.

It may seem like the valuable resource that needs charging for is the electricity. However, just as valuable a resource is the parking spot available to the (capital $ + maintenance $) charger.

I think that the cost structure should create an incentive to remain only as long as necessary. In that case, charging by time (using an assumed charging rate per type of charger) seems the most appropriate, with perhaps a 1-2$ minimum. Even a rate as high as $10/hr for DCQC prorated with a $2 minimum, would accommodate 12 minute sessions, with $5 for 30 mins. I make that to be less than 1/2 the cost of the equivalent gas car mileage. I don't expect public infrastructure to compete with home charging rates... I'd much rather it be available and reliable.
 
vancamp said:
In that case, charging by time (using an assumed charging rate per type of charger) seems the most appropriate, with perhaps a 1-2$ minimum. Even a rate as high as $10/hr for DCQC prorated with a $2 minimum, would accommodate 12 minute sessions, with $5 for 30 mins. I make that to be less than 1/2 the cost of the equivalent gas car mileage. I don't expect public infrastructure to compete with home charging rates... I'd much rather it be available and reliable.
Hey now - stop making sense! ;)
 
TomT said:
Yep! Unless I can arrive there nearly empty and then top all the way up, it simply is not cost effective... It HAS to be by Kwh!

DaveinOlyWA said:
I MUCH rather see a cost associated but NOT a per session fee.

i prefer charge by time since that is the whole point of fast charging, right? time is the critical factor here and have been stuck behind someone staring at the chademo screen thinking they just have to have 2 more percent to make it where they are going. when that 2 percent is the difference between 90 and 92%, we are talking a less then effective use of MY time.
 
drees said:
vancamp said:
In that case, charging by time (using an assumed charging rate per type of charger) seems the most appropriate, with perhaps a 1-2$ minimum. Even a rate as high as $10/hr for DCQC prorated with a $2 minimum, would accommodate 12 minute sessions, with $5 for 30 mins. I make that to be less than 1/2 the cost of the equivalent gas car mileage. I don't expect public infrastructure to compete with home charging rates... I'd much rather it be available and reliable.
Hey now - stop making sense! ;)

ya, common sense does not work well here. I suggested we double the hourly rate to change from AV's $7.50 per session fee to $15.00 an hour in one minute increments. that did not work... they said the SW did not allow them to bill by time... an explanation I find a bit hard to swallow and the "difficulties" of a solution even tougher to swallow
 
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