135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

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drees said:
I also don't consider it much of a "warranty" if the battery loses the 4th bar just outside of warranty, too, as so many southern California LEAFs appear to be on track to do.
And my low mileage, cool climate, mountain LEAF. I broke below 58 Ah yesterday now that the weather and battery (18ºC) have warmed up. Should drop the fourth bar in the 66 to 70 month range, so far as I can determine. (My hypothesis is that the high kW required for mountain driving heats up the battery significantly more than flatland driving.)

Nevertheless, with the first ever public charge station due to get installed in my destination city next month — paid for by our state EV registration fee — I will be able to cope with my wilting LEAF for many years to come and I remain happy with it. (You folks with L2 public charge stations all over the place don't realize how good you have it.)
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
We can never say for sure what Nissan *won't* do at some point in the future. If you have a bunch of six year old Leafs out there with range so badly impaired that all you can do is back out of the driveway and pull back in it's hard to see them not doing something. Once those cars get to the 10 year mark I wouldn't expect them to care any more.

You'd think they would have to do something based on their own self-interest. If people start seeing 5 or 6 year old practically useless LEAFs, that can only be a very bad thing for Nissan.

I continue to hope that they are working frantically to solve this. Either that or they're whistling on the deck. :?:
 
Back in 1999 the Production EV Drivers Coalition put together a survey of the EV drivers (mostly EV1) for a report before the California Air Resources Board. One of the survey questions dealt with range and had costs associated with each range option proportional to best understood battery costs at the time. Surprisingly 100 miles was only the second highest result.. the most popular response was 90 miles. Of course back then the EV1 was doing 60-70 miles on a charge (sound familiar?) The NiMH gen2 EV1 could do well over 100 miles.. 120 was common and some could squeeze over 140 miles out of it.
While people like to fantasize about a 150-200 mile range affordable EV I think given current technology and costs, many would be satisfied with a car that could reliably do 90-100 miles on a charge and had a good infrastructure of DCQC stations. A 36kWh Leaf with 125mi EPA range and hopefully more heat sensitive batteries could easily fit that bill... IMHO.
 
GregH said:
Back in 1999 the Production EV Drivers Coalition put together a survey of the EV drivers (mostly EV1) for a report before the California Air Resources Board. One of the survey questions dealt with range and had costs associated with each range option proportional to best understood battery costs at the time. Surprisingly 100 miles was only the second highest result.. the most popular response was 90 miles. Of course back then the EV1 was doing 60-70 miles on a charge (sound familiar?) The NiMH gen2 EV1 could do well over 100 miles.. 120 was common and some could squeeze over 140 miles out of it.
While people like to fantasize about a 150-200 mile range affordable EV I think given current technology and costs, many would be satisfied with a car that could reliably do 90-100 miles on a charge and had a good infrastructure of DCQC stations. A 36kWh Leaf with 125mi EPA range and hopefully more heat sensitive batteries could easily fit that bill... IMHO.
I think the main question is how much EPA range does it take to give people a 'reliable' 90-100 miles? I think a reliable 50-70 would be enough for most people's commutes and local use, but as I've said upthread I think that requires at least 150 EPA miles to cover the majority of climates and drivers in the U.S., my definition of 'reliable' including EoL degradation, free use of HVAC and a reserve while being driven the 'wrong' way.
 
GregH said:
Back in 1999 the Production EV Drivers Coalition put together a survey of the EV drivers (mostly EV1) for a report before the California Air Resources Board. One of the survey questions dealt with range and had costs associated with each range option proportional to best understood battery costs at the time. Surprisingly 100 miles was only the second highest result.. the most popular response was 90 miles. Of course back then the EV1 was doing 60-70 miles on a charge (sound familiar?) The NiMH gen2 EV1 could do well over 100 miles.. 120 was common and some could squeeze over 140 miles out of it.
While people like to fantasize about a 150-200 mile range affordable EV I think given current technology and costs, many would be satisfied with a car that could reliably do 90-100 miles on a charge and had a good infrastructure of DCQC stations. A 36kWh Leaf with 125mi EPA range and hopefully more heat sensitive batteries could easily fit that bill... IMHO.

[edited]

Would like to move on from the status quo. More than 3 years past the introduction of the Leaf, and fifteen years past the survey you reference, and we are still sitting here waiting for the major auto OEMs to offer us the option of paying them more money and allowing us something closer to the ranges many of us really need in a sub-$50k BEV. Yes, Tesla is going to finally render this discussion moot in two or three years, but why should we have to wait another two or three years?
 
dgpcolorado said:
drees said:
I also don't consider it much of a "warranty" if the battery loses the 4th bar just outside of warranty, too, as so many southern California LEAFs appear to be on track to do.
And my low mileage, cool climate, mountain LEAF. I broke below 58 Ah yesterday now that the weather and battery (18ºC) have warmed up. Should drop the fourth bar in the 66 to 70 month range, so far as I can determine. (My hypothesis is that the high kW required for mountain driving heats up the battery significantly more than flatland driving.)

Nevertheless, with the first ever public charge station due to get installed in my destination city next month — paid for by our state EV registration fee — I will be able to cope with my wilting LEAF for many years to come and I remain happy with it. (You folks with L2 public charge stations all over the place don't realize how good you have it.)

Can you elaborate on this new public charger? What type will it be? How did you find out abut it? Do you know of other planned chargers in the state?

Thanks!
 
BoulderLeaf said:
Can you elaborate on this new public charger? What type will it be? How did you find out abut it? Do you know of other planned chargers in the state?

Thanks!
There are three towns over here on the far Western Slope that have received charge station grants: Montrose, Ouray, and Mountain Village. I presume that there are others around the state, but I only heard indirectly about the ones here*. All are Level 2, so far as I am aware. The one in Montrose will be a double charge station but grant terms require that one parking space be "accessible" (I think that means "handicap accessible"), so it appears that there will only be one usable space, although that remains to be seen. (This info came from the Montrose city official who did the grant application.)

* The Colorado Energy Office says that: "The Colorado Energy Office (CEO) Charge Ahead Colorado program is leading this expansion of local EV infrastructure. To date the program has provided financial assistance for the installation of over 42 charging stations across Colorado." This is the source of funds for the stations here.
Grant Application Information
 
dgpcolorado said:
BoulderLeaf said:
Can you elaborate on this new public charger? What type will it be? How did you find out abut it? Do you know of other planned chargers in the state?

Thanks!
There are three towns over here on the far Western Slope that have received charge station grants: Montrose, Ouray, and Mountain Village. I presume that there are others around the state, but I only heard indirectly about the ones here*. All are Level 2, so far as I am aware. The one in Montrose will be a double charge station but grant terms require that one parking space be "accessible" (I think that means "handicap accessible"), so it appears that there will only be one usable space, although that remains to be seen. (This info came from the Montrose city official who did the grant application.)

* The Colorado Energy Office says that: "The Colorado Energy Office (CEO) Charge Ahead Colorado program is leading this expansion of local EV infrastructure. To date the program has provided financial assistance for the installation of over 42 charging stations across Colorado." This is the source of funds for the stations here.
Grant Application Information

Cool, thanks for the info!
 
"Yes, Tesla is going to finally render this discussion moot in two or three years, but why should we have to wait another two or three years?"

Dream on!
 
GRA said:
... majority of climates and drivers in the U.S., my definition of 'reliable' including EoL degradation, free use of HVAC and a reserve while being driven the 'wrong' way.
The idea is not to "appeal" to majority of people or climates. It is to get enough people interested to get to the next level in terms of sales. Leaf doesn't need to be practical for 5 Million new car buyers to sell 60 thousand a year. 50% improvement in EPA rating will net lot more than 50% extra sales - in the areas it is already selling well. No need to build something for Montana and Alaska.
 
kmp647 said:
I know this is a lot of speculation, but its plain to see the future sucess of the Leaf or Nissan EV will depend on larger capacity batteries and longer range. I believe Nissan will see a sales plateau in 2014 which will only be broken by a redesign, and or longer range option for the 2015 Leaf. read this as , whatever 2014 sales are Leaf would never sell much above that level ever unless it was offered with significantly longer range and improved styling. Now they might well capture some additional sales by offering the E-nv200 , but it might also steal sales from the Leaf.
To grow its market capture they will need a much improved range .

ask yourself if you would buy or lease another , say a 2015 or 2016 model if there were some minor improvements but no additional range?

I know my answer , no way.

My answer is no way also, but I think Nissan probably will probably have to offer a longer-range BEV under $40k or so to stay competitive especially since Tesla has brought some clarity to the timeline and competition with its Model E plans.

If they offer an under-$40k BEV with a legit 36kwh + and an improved outlook on battery degradation, then my question is will they offer existing lessees a completely (totally) non-penalizing and hassle-free way to trade into the new vehicle before leases are technically up. If they do make a special trade-in offer, I'd consider it but couldn't at all guarantee taking it since I am already out money to deal with the issue (i.e.: trying to set myself up with a used gasoline vehicle), and since the range of choices appears to be slowly expanding, while I wait.
 
evnow said:
GRA said:
... majority of climates and drivers in the U.S., my definition of 'reliable' including EoL degradation, free use of HVAC and a reserve while being driven the 'wrong' way.
The idea is not to "appeal" to majority of people or climates. It is to get enough people interested to get to the next level in terms of sales. Leaf doesn't need to be practical for 5 Million new car buyers to sell 60 thousand a year. 50% improvement in EPA rating will net lot more than 50% extra sales - in the areas it is already selling well. No need to build something for Montana and Alaska.
Montana, Alaska, Wyoming and similar states are the last ones I'm thinking of. They're big, low density and lack major population centers, in addition to having extremely cold winters. I'm thinking of people living in Kansas City, Twin Cities, Detroit, Buffalo etc. and their suburbs, i.e. mainstream urban/suburban America. We have to get past the early adopter crowd in the next generation, if EVs are to prosper. And we need to do it before 2017, because who knows what will happen politically then.
 
Anton Wahlman is doubling down on his story:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/12673069/1/nissan-turns-up-the-heat-in-the-electric-car-race.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Anton Wahlman is doubling down on his story:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/12673069/1/nissan-turns-up-the-heat-in-the-electric-car-race.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"Nissan did not say precisely how the battery will be improved this time, or by how much capacity -- and therefore range -- would be improved.

Nissan did say that once every few years we should expect a step function in battery improvement that would be a lot more than the single-digit percentage incremental version."

If they have a 10% improvement that is much more than a single digit improvement from 5%. "A lot more" is very subjective but somehow he has translated the Nissan words into 135 miles. The issue is there is no quote to substantiate his actual figure other than his opinion so far. In Nissan speak "a lot more" could mean exactly 10% which is a double digit number :lol:
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Anton Wahlman is doubling down on his story:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/12673069/1/nissan-turns-up-the-heat-in-the-electric-car-race.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think the messenger did a pretty good job of delivering this message. The message itself is partially painful to read:

...
3. View on battery size.

On this point, Nissan was somewhat contradictory, in my view. Nissan said it believes people are fine with an 84-mile electric car. Why? Because it says it knows people aren't driving nearly as far as 84 miles most of the time.

In my view, this is total nonsense. Of course people aren't driving more than 84 miles -- or some such number -- in a Nissan Leaf. They can't! It's like telling a starving person in Africa they have no need for an American diet because to date they have been observed to only eat 500 calories per day.

[...]
In any case, the fact that Nissan Leaf drivers almost always drive fewer than 84 miles per trip means nothing as to their need or want to have a car that can go longer. Every single Nissan Leaf driver I know -- and I know many of them -- have one complaint with their car, and one only: Please give us a version that has 150 or 200 miles of range. Or 250. That's what they want. It's the only thing they want to improve their Leaf. The need for much longer range is total and uniform, not the other way around.

Otherwise, if the EV can't handle 150, 200, 250 miles, they can't get rid of their other (gasoline or diesel) car, and they can't be sufficiently happy in their Leaf. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

I heard a similar argument recently, too, from another major automaker, which shall remain unnamed for the moment. Their idea is that 99% of the time you don't need to go more than 80 to -100 miles of whatever, and that therefore a car that can go 80 to 100 miles will be enough.
...
 
GRA said:
I'm thinking of people living in Kansas City, Twin Cities, Detroit, Buffalo etc. and their suburbs, i.e. mainstream urban/suburban America. We have to get past the early adopter crowd in the next generation, if EVs are to prosper. And we need to do it before 2017, because who knows what will happen politically then.
No we don't need to appeal to those people to get to 5% market share.
 
evnow said:
GRA said:
I'm thinking of people living in Kansas City, Twin Cities, Detroit, Buffalo etc. and their suburbs, i.e. mainstream urban/suburban America. We have to get past the early adopter crowd in the next generation, if EVs are to prosper. And we need to do it before 2017, because who knows what will happen politically then.
No we don't need to appeal to those people to get to 5% market share.


"suburbs" Remember one of the key reasons for suburbs near big cities? Oh the irony.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Anton Wahlman is doubling down on his story:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/12673069/1/nissan-turns-up-the-heat-in-the-electric-car-race.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's added some more conjecture to his previous conjectures. Which he now presents as fact!

As background, I wrote back on March 27 on the subject of the upcoming estimated 135-mile range Nissan Leaf.

Now, Nissan may well be preparing higher range models, and sooner or later it's practically inevitable. But, they certainly have not confirmed the feverish dreams of this fellow.
 
I would love to be able to buy a LEAF with double the current range, however according to this article it will NOT happen this year.

And for those of you hoping for the surprise introduction of the next generation LEAF, or possibly a significant battery/range upgrade, it appears you will have to wait until next year (as originally anticipated).
http://insideevs.com/2015-nissan-leaf-new-color-choice-range-changes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
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