2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

I use antigravity batteries in my racebikes, because they are so light.

They are lighter than other lithium ion batteries because of the cell technology, somewhere on their website they explain it. Basically, the shape of the cells is how they do it.

The important thing to know about these, and other lithium batteries is how they react to cold weather. The Leaf doesn't use the 12V battery to try to turn over and start an ICE, like it does on the motorcycles, but on the bikes it won't start them immediately when the air temps fall below about 40F. It's not a big deal for us, you turn the bike ignition on, try and fail to start it, then let it sit for about 30 seconds while the battery warms itself. Then it will start.

Since starting this thread I've purchased a small jumpstart pack that serves as a jumper, flashlight and portable USB charger. And it fits in the glovebox. It provides between 200-400cca which should be more than enough for a Leaf. Nissan should probably include one of these!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D42AFS8/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I haven't had a chance to use it but feel more confident I won't get stuck with a dead battery.

Unlike ICE cars where the alternator keeps the lead acid battery charged at 14.4V during operation, the Leaf hovers between 14 and 12, usually the latter. I suspect this to be a factor with waking up to a dead battery.

Phatcat73 said:

Unlike ICE cars where the alternator keeps the lead acid battery charged at 14.4V during operation, the Leaf hovers between 14 and 12, usually the latter. I suspect this to be a factor with waking up to a dead battery.

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Me, too. The only justification I can think of for this design decision is perhaps Nissan was concerned that the LEAF spends about 6X as much time charging as driving, which means the 12V battery would be charged 7X as long as any other car if they kept it at 14.4V all the time. So they drop it down to 13.1V most of the time to prevent premature loss of electrolyte.

Proposed simple solution (for Nissan): Charge at 14.4V when the car is in READY mode (being driven), and hold charge by using 13.1V when charging. Voila! Your battery gets fully charged whenever it is driven and not at other times, which should closely match every other car on the road. If the battery is very low, 13.1V is high enough to bring it to about 50% SOC, so it won't go dead while charging.

I got to thinking about this and thought I should put my Deltran battery tender 1.25 amp 4 stage charger on the leaf battery. I usually top off our TDI and van battery once a week in winter just to be safe. They usually take about 60 minutes to top off, about 1.25 ah in an 80 ah battery. I connected the charger up and it took just over 5 hours to get the battery to flashing green (absorb stage) and another 2 hours to go to solid green (float stage). That is about 1.25 *5 or 6 ah back in that little battery. Does anyone know what capacity it is, if I had to guess I would say 30ah?

Anyway since the car is used regularly, 1000 miles in the last two weeks I was surprised it took that much to top it off. Bottom line I think I will do this more often, maybe weekly in winter and less in summer?

Just thought I would share.

A few months ago I purchased the CTEK 93-56-865 US 0.8 Black 12V Battery Charger that Ingineer recommended. I've used it many times, sometimes several times in a week. Since all of my trips are short, I would expect the Leaf to charge the PbA battery at maximum for at least 10 - 20 min. However, I have also observed that it takes several hours to charge using the CTEK. As you said, this suggests that the Leaf isn't keeping the PbA battery fully charged. I've done the same thing with my ICE PbA battery, and yes, it only takes about an hour or two even though it is a much larger battery.

Float charging for lead acid is ~13.4V. They could simply hold it steady at that voltage, forever.

I spoke to a person at AntiGravity Batteries about their current products and the Leaf, and he stated that their current batteries are made for starting. As we all know, this is not needed for the Leaf. He did say that they are working on a Leaf-specific battery that will pack a lot of AHs without the need for cranking capacity, as the Leaf start-up draw is minimal. They are designing a battery with BMS as part of it. As to working in the cold, they have batteries that are used in snowmobiles without any issues.

Keep looking at their website to see if one shows up - at last a 12v battery designed specifically for the Leaf!

donald said:

Float charging for lead acid is ~13.4V. They could simply hold it steady at that voltage, forever.

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most lead acid batts require a charging profile which charges to something in the neighborhood of 14.5 volts until it hits a point then it goes into a sort of cell balancing mode where it drops to 13ish volts. but this part is generally less than 30-45 minutes or so. i had a ZENN with lead acid and different types of lead acid chemistries have slightly different charging profiles but all followed a similar pattern.

a charger will stay in hold mode but most will not indicate active charging in this mode

pyrotech said:

... I talked with the Service Manager and explained that I didn't want to pay $34K for a new car and not be able to start it without a jump every morning, and he said that seemed reasonable, but he needs it to fail the tests on Nissan's machine in order to do a warranty replacement.
I sense some finger pointing to what seems maybe a rock and a hard place for me.

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Bullshit. Something is wrong with your car. Maybe it isn't the battery, but something is wrong. Escalate this to Nissan. Carefully document every problem and every attempt to fix it. Forward this account to the Service Mgr and Nissan. Don't take no for an answer.

davewill said:

pyrotech said:

... I talked with the Service Manager and explained that I didn't want to pay $34K for a new car and not be able to start it without a jump every morning, and he said that seemed reasonable, but he needs it to fail the tests on Nissan's machine in order to do a warranty replacement.
I sense some finger pointing to what seems maybe a rock and a hard place for me.

Click to expand...

Bullshit. Something is wrong with your car. Maybe it isn't the battery, but something is wrong. Escalate this to Nissan. Carefully document every problem and every attempt to fix it. Forward this account to the Service Mgr and Nissan. Don't take no for an answer.

Click to expand...

+1

Actually, most modern ICE cars don't do this anymore. Most now use monitored feedback charging which maintains a much lower voltage than in the old days. It is easier on the battery and requires less energy from the engine, while maintaining tighter control over the battery charge state..

Here's a video that explains the Ford system.

http://youtu.be/FAJeDX-T-Eg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Phatcat73 said:

Unlike ICE cars where the alternator keeps the lead acid battery charged at 14.4V during operation, the Leaf hovers between 14 and 12, usually the latter.

Click to expand...

TomT said:

Actually, most modern ICE cars don't do this anymore. Most now use monitored feedback charging which maintains a much lower voltage than in the old days. It is easier on the battery and requires less energy from the engine, while maintaining tighter control over the battery charge state..

Here's a video that explains the Ford system.

http://youtu.be/FAJeDX-T-Eg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Phatcat73 said:

Unlike ICE cars where the alternator keeps the lead acid battery charged at 14.4V during operation, the Leaf hovers between 14 and 12, usually the latter.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for that video! Very interesting!

I must say that unless Ford has done an outstanding job of monitoring charge balance and returns 115% or more of what is used, they will be essentially trading battery life for better fuel economy, much as Nissan has apparently done with the LEAF. (And, just like the LEAF, the Fords will also need to return all energy lost while the vehicle was off, which is where Nissan seems to have missed the boat.)

By way of update on our LEAF's 12V battery, I am convinced that it is currently about 35% sulfated. Each afternoon last week I put it on our trickle charger (which charges at up to 1.5A and absorb charges at about 14.7V) and then measured the voltage in the morning. In every case, it the voltage had dropped to between 12.25V and 12.35V, which is about a 65% SOC. This indicates that about 35% of the capacity is already lost to sulfation. (Here is a good article from Rolls on this topic.)

I may pull it out of the car and try to perform a recovery charge (at about 15.6V and low current) to see if I can break down the sulfation.

If all the manufacturers are starting to do this, that may explain why the 12V batter manufacturers have nearly all abandoned their long pro-rated warranties. Most now only offer a one- or two-year full warranty and nothing beyond that. I just bought a battery for our HCH at Costco because they offered a 3-year full warranty with 100 months prorated at rock-bottom prices. But they are definitely the exception these days.

RegGuheert said:

TomT said:

Actually, most modern ICE cars don't do this anymore. Most now use monitored feedback charging which maintains a much lower voltage than in the old days. It is easier on the battery and requires less energy from the engine, while maintaining tighter control over the battery charge state..

Here's a video that explains the Ford system.

http://youtu.be/FAJeDX-T-Eg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Phatcat73 said:

Unlike ICE cars where the alternator keeps the lead acid battery charged at 14.4V during operation, the Leaf hovers between 14 and 12, usually the latter.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for that video! Very interesting!

I must say that unless Ford has done an outstanding job of monitoring charge balance and returns 115% or more of what is used, they will be essentially trading battery life for better fuel economy, much as Nissan has apparently done with the LEAF. (And, just like the LEAF, the Fords will also need to return all energy lost while the vehicle was off, which is where Nissan seems to have missed the boat.)

By way of update on our LEAF's 12V battery, I am convinced that it is currently about 35% sulfated. Each afternoon last week I put it on our trickle charger (which charges at up to 1.5A and absorb charges at about 14.7V) and then measured the voltage in the morning. In every case, it the voltage had dropped to between 12.25V and 12.35V, which is about a 65% SOC. This indicates that about 35% of the capacity is already lost to sulfation. (Here is a good article from Rolls on this topic.)

I may pull it out of the car and try to perform a recovery charge (at about 15.6V and low current) to see if I can break down the sulfation.

If all the manufacturers are starting to do this, that may explain why the 12V batter manufacturers have nearly all abandoned their long pro-rated warranties. Most now only offer a one- or two-year full warranty and nothing beyond that. I just bought a battery for our HCH at Costco because they offered a 3-year full warranty with 100 months prorated at rock-bottom prices. But they are definitely the exception these days.

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When you measure the voltage in the morning are you doing so with it disconnected from the car?

QueenBee said:

When you measure the voltage in the morning are you doing so with it disconnected from the car?

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No. But I have previously measured the load current to be around 20 mA. Also, I have previously measured the battery voltage in our LEAF and noted that it did not drop to such low voltages even after several days of sitting:

Yesterday afternoon I did a desulfation charge at ~15.6V for a couple of hours. This morning, the battery is at 12.7V. I am going to do another charge at that level now.

RegGuheert said:

Yesterday afternoon I did a desulfation charge at ~15.6V for a couple of hours. This morning, the battery is at 12.7V. I am going to do another charge at that level now.

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O.K. I charged our LEAF's 12V battery at 15.9V for a bit over three hours this morning. It bubbled steadily during that time. After standing for about one hour, the voltage is now at 13.0V. We'll see how the voltage holds up over the next few days, as I do not think we will be driving the LEAF until at least Saturday.

(BTW, I decided to charge the battery without removing it from the vehicle. 15.9V is pretty high, so I am not recommending that others do this. I'm hoping the electronics in the car have been designed for higher voltages. I think 17V is the normal upper limit.)

I'm seriously considering getting this for my leaf (as well as another SLA I have that has seen very little use): Battery Desulfator

I would use it with the battery disconnected from the leaf and a small trickle charger also attached. DON'T use this with the battery still attached to the leaf! The key to de-sulfation is pulses tuned to the resonance of the sulfate crystals to break them apart. An elevated charge voltage works too, but is less effective and causes unnecessary heating and hydrogen generation.

Also for those with the little caps on the battery (I think '11-'12s only): CHECK YOUR WATER LEVEL!!! (I'm sure Reg has already done so )

This to has happened to my 2011 LEAF just about a month ago. The Pilot Signal from the EVSE seems to require the 12 volt Battery to Send the Pilot Signal back to the EVSE Dock. After I disconnect the 12 volt battery and then Metered it. It was as 10 volts. I then recharged the Battery, reset the Car and got it to fire up again.. But while it was dead I did some testing and Discovered that the EVESE Dock was Drawing about 2 amps off the 12 volt battery. The car had sat long enough for the EVSE to run the Battery down .. I thought the LEAF did a Vacation Draw down and Recharge with Traction Pack and the 12 volt battery. I have left my LEAF for longer in the past with no issue.

But for some reason this time the EVSE dock did Discharge my 12 volt Battery. I think We had some power surges in some storms that caused the Power to go out and then come back on.. Some how this confused the ECU and the Car did not reset itself .. So the EVSE kept Drawing the Pilot Signal from the 12 volt Battery.

Now when I leave it for longer than a Week I Unplug it from the EVSE Dock..

I wonder if some evse's use the 12v from the car to close the contractors? What else would pull 2 amps at 12v?

RegGuheert said:

QueenBee said:

When you measure the voltage in the morning are you doing so with it disconnected from the car?

Click to expand...

No. But I have previously measured the load current to be around 20 mA. Also, I have previously measured the battery voltage in our LEAF and noted that it did not drop to such low voltages even after several days of sitting:

Click to expand...

Let me start by stating that I now realize that my old current measurements were not applicable to this case. The reason is that I had forgotten to remove the ELM327 during the entirety of recent testing. So this morning I measured the current draw of the LEAF with it plugged in: 175 mA. That is 10X the quiescent draw of the LEAF without the ELM327 plugged in! On other words, our ELM327 devices have contributed to further 12V battery degradation beyond what the Nissan charger design already achieves.

But does that invalidate my belief that our LEAF's 12V battery is badly sulfated? Not at all. At 175 mA load, the battery should be depleted less than 5% of the nameplate capacity of 55 mAh overnight. Still, I have removed the ELM327 for now to reduce the overnight load.

RegGuheert said:

O.K. I charged our LEAF's 12V battery at 15.9V for a bit over three hours this morning. It bubbled steadily during that time. After standing for about one hour, the voltage is now at 13.0V. We'll see how the voltage holds up over the next few days, as I do not think we will be driving the LEAF until at least Saturday.

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I measured the voltage this morning after 19 hours of sitting (with the ELM327 still in place): 12.40V. That is a marked improvement over the tests I did last week since a higher voltage, and thus, a higher SOC, was achieved after sitting 1.5 times as long. This result represents about a 10% improvement in capacity, which is about what I would expect given that the high voltage charges have only put a total of about 6 Ah of charge into the battery. Several more of these sessions will be required to eliminated all of the remaining sulfate. I just started another desulfation charge this morning.

(BTW, I am convinced that yesterday's reading of 12.70V was erroneous. Likely the charger had just finished a charge not long before my reading. Now I am removing it altogether to prevent similar occurrences.)

JeremyW said:

Also for those with the little caps on the battery (I think '11-'12s only): CHECK YOUR WATER LEVEL!!! (I'm sure Reg has already done so )

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Absolutely! And our LEAF's battery's cells' fluid levels are each just slightly above the upper "FULL" line, just as they have been since we bought it. The bottom line: the LEAF's charger stays so far away from a full charge that it does not seem to electrolyze ANY of the water in the battery. As a result, it is likely that no LEAF batteries will fail from a loss of water, but that most will fail prematurely due to sulfation.

One thing I love about this battery is that the case is translucent so you can easily check the battery fluid levels without removing the caps. Simply hold a stubby flashlight behind the battery and shine it below the water level. The level can then easily be seen.

thew said:

The car had sat long enough for the EVSE to run the Battery down.

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Just for reference, all of the testing I have done to date has been with the EVSE unplugged. I believe that gives me the lowest current draw.

Just thinking out loud. Is there a way to tap in to the incoming level 1 / level 2 power at 120vac? I ask because I was thinking of throwing a water proof 800mA battery tender jr under the hood and just leave it connected. Then when the car is plugged in it would just charge the 12v battery without me popping the hood and connecting an external charger. I think once a week topping off the 12v will work out, but it would be nice if it wasn't something I would have to mess with.