A Note From A Leaf Salesman

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P71VIC said:
I don't care. I just don't care. I don't want to care about a sales man and what he makes or doesn't make. I care only about the car that I am either evaluating or after decision has been reached, purchasing.

  • When I am trying to find out information about a car I want to be able to do this in a way that I trust and on my own terms.
    When I am ready to hands on evaluate a car, I want to be able to do this quickly, conveniently and at my own pace.
    When I am ready to buy a car I need the process of trading money for vehicle to be easy, transparent, trouble free, and then have the car delivered quickly.

Never in this process do I want to think about the mechanics of the transaction, worrying if I have played the game right or wrong.
That is probably what most car buyers would say. Buying my Leaf 3 years ago was nearly ideal. Decided I wanted to buy the car after a short test drive at a Nissan event in Santa Monica. Got a quote from Fontana Nissan, accepted it. Went to the dealer, did the paper work, paid for the car and drove home. First time I have ever had a pleasant car buying experience. If Nissan gets their act together and comes out with Leaf 2.0 with 125-150 EPA miles and a Lizard-like battery, I will be back at Fontana Nissan in a few more years. Otherwise, it will be the next generation Tesla.
 
Stoaty said:
Went to the dealer, did the paper work, paid for the car and drove home. First time I have ever had a pleasant car buying experience. If Nissan gets their act together and comes out with Leaf 2.0 with 125-150 EPA miles and a Lizard-like battery, I will be back at Fontana Nissan in a few more years. Otherwise, it will be the next generation Tesla.
+1
 
Stoaty said:
Went to the dealer, did the paper work, paid for the car and drove home. First time I have ever had a pleasant car buying experience. If Nissan gets their act together and comes out with Leaf 2.0 with 125-150 EPA miles and a Lizard-like battery, I will be back at Fontana Nissan in a few more years. Otherwise, it will be the next generation Tesla.

Arisha @ Downtown Nashville Nissan (no longer works there) made my LEAF purchase as painless as possible. I walked in with a bank check of an agreed upon price and was ready to go. The one hangup was that I purchased after 5pm on a Friday, so there was only one of the people there who take care of the money/financing/whatever and 2 couples right before me got hung up at that point of their purchase. But she helped me entertain my 2 small children while we waited and was a genuinely "good hang" for the hour and a half the back side took.

I was happy to give her a 10 at every point on the survey and I'll have to say, hands down, it was the best car purchase experience I've ever had. (Oh & when I originally called offering my Low Ball price, they responded with "We can beat that by $50"?!?!? Amazing people.
 
Thanks for posting all that! Great insight on the specifics of Leaf sales compared to selling other cars, and the ridiculousness of the top-heavy customer surveys.

If anyone else here liked that insight, I'll also recommend that you to This American Life's radio program showcasing the pressures car salesmen face in general to hit a certain number of cars sold. Was glad I listened to it before starting the car buying process. Helped to humanize the sales folks for me.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/513/129-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had a great experience with my salesman (Michael Skierka at Nissan of Van Nuys) when I purchased my Leaf, and I did indeed give him all 10's on the survey. After reading the original post here I am glad I did, and this post motivated me to go ahead and write a positive Yelp review for Nissan of Van Nuys as well. (Not sure if the latter helps at all, but it's something.)
 
P71VIC said:
This isn't going to sound polite, but I don't mean it that way to the individual who posted this. I just have a strong opinion about the car buying process from the consumer point of view. Thank you for your write up, it was interesting.


I don't care. I just don't care. I don't want to care about a sales man and what he makes or doesn't make. I care only about the car that I am either evaluating or after decision has been reached, purchasing.

  • When I am trying to find out information about a car I want to be able to do this in a way that I trust and on my own terms.
    When I am ready to hands on evaluate a car, I want to be able to do this quickly, conveniently and at my own pace.
    When I am ready to buy a car I need the process of trading money for vehicle to be easy, transparent, trouble free, and then have the car delivered quickly.

Never in this process do I want to think about the mechanics of the transaction, worrying if I have played the game right or wrong.

This is what is so fundamentally broken with the automotive dealer system in this country. It fails in nearly all of these ways.

I have had two extremely negative experiences at dealers.
#1 at a Chevy dealer, where they wouldn't let me test drive a sports car, because I was a young man I guess, type cast as someone who couldn't afford such as car and only wanted a joy ride. I bought a sports car from another manufacture in the same price range two weeks later.
#2 at a VW dealer. I told them I wanted a particular model, with particular options and that I was willing to pay appropriate for it. Dealer said "great Mr. P71, I have one exactly like that on a boat right now inbound for the dealer. It is due here in about 10 days. I'll give you a call." I ask if they want a deposit, they say no. 11 days later, no call and they sold the car out from under me. I bought a car from another manufacture in the same price range two weeks later.

Both of these times, incompetent independent dealers soured me from a whole brand. This whole terrible brand tarnishing system is what Tesla is trying to up end and I applaud them for it. They meet almost all of my requirements above, except delivering quickly after ordering with their whole reservation system.

I have been able to buy computers configured the way I want them and delivered shortly there after with no sales man involved for over 15 years now. Why can't I do this for a car?

So Mr. Sales man, I'm sorry, but I just don't care. Get out of my way and let me buy a car. Your employer hired you to preform a role in a sales process that is broken, and as car buyer I just don't care and don't want the transaction to work the way it does at all. You profession has been deprecated, at least for me, and other customers like me.
+1x10^6

I think the simplest and easiest fix is to eliminate the commission sales model. Tesla got this right. I was fortunate that selling AE wasn't my sole or sometimes even my primary source of income, so I wasn't dependent on it and thus never had a conflict of interest with a customer. A commission-based sales model, especially one with quotas, has an inherent conflict of interest unless the salesperson has another source of income like I did. Again, it's the difference between customer service, and sales. I want to deal with a customer service person and _not_ a salesperson, whose job is to sell me things I neither need or want, for their and their company's benefit rather than mine.
 
My LEAF salesman didn't have to work very hard. I did all my research here, and knew what I wanted. He earned the business when he replied to my first email. Eleven other dealers either ignored me, came back with an amazingly high counter offer, or responded with "call me", or "come see me". Jim McCall at Marlboro Nissan responded with a firm, lowball counter offer, and the deal was done. Sale closed. I gave him solid tens on the survey and he deserved it. If he and the dealership make good money, and I get a good deal without crazy games, that's a workable model.

But it only works with people like those on this forum. People who study and research and are willing to re-think what driving means. And with salesman like Jim who don't waste time or energy in negotiating.

Having your income depend in part on the survey answers of an uninformed general public is nuts. If Nissan doesn't make allowances for that, they're only hurting themselves. Most people are too used to the convenience of gas cars.

CT is offering awards to dealerships that sell EVs. It's not clear if the awards are monetary, but policies like that might help salesman make the transition.
 
I bought from Mossy in San Diego: I did not give a perfect score on my survey, and I now I feel even better for doing so.
Tesla has got the whole car buying experience and owner support perfected. Looking forward to the end of dealers and salesmen. Still do wish well to the nice OP, though.
 
Pretty sure the problem for dealers isn't the LEAF itself, it's the type of person it attracts. The same type you don't want to seat on a jury.
 
As an interesting perspective from a millennial - I will have to say my Leaf purchase was as close to a Tesla sales model I have seen.

Also as a millennial I WANT TO BUY ONLINE - I WILL PAY MSRP (and maybe more) JUST TO BUY ONLINE. The problem with the current sales model is going to hit a wall when more of my generation buys cars (is coming just wait until they have to move out of their downtown loft to a suburb that has good schools and needs to get a car). I want to pick all my options and choices click the buy button and be done. Yes, I know it will never be that easy because of finance stuff, but I don't want to haggle the price or play games, I don't want to come in, I don't want to talk to anyone, and I don't want to be pressured either - hell my generation - buying online is IMPULSE buying. You will get more sales from us online (which will soon be the bulk of your sales) than going in.

My leaf purchase was almost straight up that way - before it was really offered in Texas (we were lagging a few months behind) I found a dealership in a town 4 hours away that was getting Leafs from orders and then selling them (instead of having to order them) - called the guy up, he gave me the price from online I had already discussed with the wife, he gave me the APR and the bank offer - done deal. 10 minutes of calling. It was delivered and I signed 3 sheets including one for my trade-in (he appraised it over the phone). Now could I have gotten more for the trade-in or a better rate or cost of the car if I went somewhere and haggled? Sure? Did I want to - HELL NO. If I buy another leaf, I want the same way. I would rather pay MSRP for less hassle a 10 minute phone call (email preferred, remember, we like computer contact better) than to go down and argue for a few hours. The best thing about us - we know what we want, we did all the research, we just don't want hassles or other interactions. So, if you are completely direct with simple interactions and straight forward - you can make full MSRP and more with my generation.

Now contrast to what my wife went through for her Volt. We KNEW exactly what we wanted and the options - it was going to be ordered and we were just going to pay price - sweet deal for the salesman. But we had to come down to the dealership to even order the vehicle, that took over an hour...really? Then when we came to pick up the car and finalize the purchase took us 4 HOURS (they had it the entire day - we went in the evening to prep the car). A car that we delivered just for us took SO LONG. Why did it take forever. They still tried to play games with us (what for? they are getting full price), we even bought a few options. Uggh. Awful. I know what I want, I told you what I want, let me shove money in your face to get what I want. Why is this so difficult?
 
I'm on the boomer/Gen X cusp and I agree with the above, except I'm not going to pay MSRP. Give me a price online, I'll buy or I won't, and I want to be in and out as speedily as possible with no shysterism at the dealer. It is simply astounding how often simple requests for emailed prices get "come on down!!!!! Give me a call!!!!" responses. I never reply to them. They may have been willing to sell lower than the best emailed price but they just lost their commission by not responding to a basic and reasonable customer request. I don't need questions answered - never found a sales rep who knows what I know after even desultory research on the car. I don't need rustproofing, extended warranties, and other garbage rip-offs. I'll buy from the best response that matches my actual request. Idiots don't get a second chance.
 
Like any other system, it will evolve. The dealerships that can better adapt to internet sales will do better, the others will die off. Hopefully.

There's a trend here for dealerships to convert to a "no haggling" one price model, but I'm not sure if it's better for them, or us.

One things for sure, as the struggle Tesla is going through shows, dealerships and their associations aren't going away any time soon.
 
My largest complaint with car dealerships is that they over-complicate the purchase process. When I bought our Leaf, I already had the "price" from the dealership and I knew the destination charge and what the title and registration fees were. The dealer worked with the local electric vehicle group for a number of months educating us on the Leaf (before release), so I wanted to give them my business, even if another dealer offered $100 or $200 less.

In my opinion, the dealership should have zero concern about how they are paid for the vehicle - so we pre-arranged our financing with our local credit union.

Now, we go to the dealership to pick up the car and all of the sudden they "forget" the price (good thing I brought the NissanUSA.com printout), then make me submit to a "mandatory" NMAC credit check - despite financing already arranged.

Next, they send us to the "finance" office to take care of the title and registration - where they attempt to up-sell everything in their arsenal. Once I convince him we weren't budging from what was already arranged, he finally got the idea and wrapped things up. We finally had the keys to the car and were able to drive it home about 2.5 hours after we walked in the door. For comparison, we closed on our house in about 30 minutes...

The two largest issues that caused us to be dissatisfied with the process where the mandatory credit check and the repetitive up-selling (we had to tell him "no" at least 5 times for a single extended warranty).
 
MikeinDenver said:
You appear to be missing a lot. Customers are forced to do the dance. The dance is perpetuated by the dealers. If I know I cannot get the vehicle price any lower and it is fair I will pay that price. But dealers don't want that because they couldn't gouge so many people that way.

As for the F&I guys they deserve their bad rap. Despite saying no they will continue to push it or give you attitude etc. The car buying experience would be a lot better without them in the picture. If people want those things they can/will ask. If they don't you don't have to try to shove it down their throats or coerce them into paying way too much for something.

You are leaving out the part about a trade-in. Most car sales involve a trade-in. There is no way for you to "know" that you cannot get a better price. I know that is what you want, but it's not going to happen. As long as there is a profit involved, there is a retailer willing to accept less profit and sell the vehicle cheaper. People are not going to stop trading in vehicles. There is a MSRP. If that's what you want, just pay it. Don't do the dance. It is unfair for you to assume that the dealer wants to gouge you. Is it possible for a dealer to want to get you the car you want and make an honest profit? Is that possible. Or does your mind envision only that everyone is out to get you? Do you negotiate for groceries, appliances, electronics or houses? I bet that some you do and some you don't. and what determines that a dealer made too much money on a deal? How many dealers are out of business that were in business 10 years ago. Apparently, they didn't make enough money.
 
kikbuti said:
MikeinDenver said:
You appear to be missing a lot. Customers are forced to do the dance. The dance is perpetuated by the dealers. If I know I cannot get the vehicle price any lower and it is fair I will pay that price. But dealers don't want that because they couldn't gouge so many people that way.

As for the F&I guys they deserve their bad rap. Despite saying no they will continue to push it or give you attitude etc. The car buying experience would be a lot better without them in the picture. If people want those things they can/will ask. If they don't you don't have to try to shove it down their throats or coerce them into paying way too much for something.

You are leaving out the part about a trade-in. Most car sales involve a trade-in. There is no way for you to "know" that you cannot get a better price. I know that is what you want, but it's not going to happen. As long as there is a profit involved, there is a retailer willing to accept less profit and sell the vehicle cheaper. People are not going to stop trading in vehicles. There is a MSRP. If that's what you want, just pay it. Don't do the dance. It is unfair for you to assume that the dealer wants to gouge you. Is it possible for a dealer to want to get you the car you want and make an honest profit? Is that possible. Or does your mind envision only that everyone is out to get you? Do you negotiate for groceries, appliances, electronics or houses? I bet that some you do and some you don't. and what determines that a dealer made too much money on a deal? How many dealers are out of business that were in business 10 years ago. Apparently, they didn't make enough money.


You can get multiple quotes on your trade in. We did with my wifes car. It is not unfair for me to assume the dealer wants to gouge me. I have seen it many times first hand let alone thousands and thousands of stories. I understand they need to make a profit to stay in business. But that doesn't have to be an exorbitant amount. I bet many of those dealers went out not because they solely made less money but probably due to despicable practices and people no longer shopping there. The biggest issue is the process and the BS. One can always shop for a better deal endlessly. Why can't dealers just post their price online like pretty much every other type of retail product and let people choose where they purchase it. You look up a TV at Best Buy then see it on Amazon for $200 cheaper. You buy it off amazon and wait or you go to the local best buy and buy it. But there is no BS!

I as an educated consumer know what the invoice is, I know about the holdbacks etc. So I will pay what I deem a fair price. Not more.
 
Much as my heart aches for anyone (service deliverer or service user) caught out in a load of badly thought-out mis-planned service delivery protocols, all I can say is that this is the same in many many walks of life. The details will vary, but it is not unique to car sales.

So all I can really say to the salesman, appreciative as I may be at his effort to regale the finer points of his trade, is 'Awww Didums!'.

To my mind, this is an easy fix with a better sales model, which is exactly what many here have already said. I'll suggest an alternative, though. For example:-

First, you have vehicle manufacturers who makes the cars and interact with their dealers, which may be franchise or business units owned by the VM.

Second, the dealers provide a priced service to the VM for a) providing some defined test-drive and acquaint visit, and b) handling and delivering a car for a customer.

Then, an interested customer registers an interest with the VM on line. The VM makes an appointment for the customer to visit a dealer nearby, and they can pick the dealer who, in their opinion, provides the best mix of convenience to the customer and price for the acquaint visit (taking into account feedback from customers who have attended previous acquaint visits at that site).

The customer attends the acquaint visit and test drive. After, they go away and think about it. If they want the car, they click on a 'buy-it-now' on a website at the price given in the literature they were presented with, or they don't buy the car. They can ask the dealer of their choice to 'buy-it-now' for them if they choose or can't be bothered/don't have internet.

VM delivers car to dealer of customer's choice (default, the acquaint dealer). Dealer provides PDI and handover service.

Dealer charges VM for acquaint visits and the PDI/handover. Dealer competes with other dealers to win acquaint visits and PDI/handover based on pricing to the VM and customer feedback. It might easily be possible that one dealer in an area delivers all the acquaint visits but hands over few cars, and another gives few test drives but is good at delivery. Both will make money in this model.

Is this more of a modern model that could be followed? I'm sure there are plenty of wrinkles that would need to be ironed, but it sounds a load better than the model described above. The only thing the salesman's note says to me is that the current system is a failed system.
 
A fantastic podcast on the actual workings of the automotive dealership sales and compensation process with real sales people and general managers. A fascinating 70 minutes.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/play_full.php?play=513" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
MikeinDenver said:
kikbuti said:
MikeinDenver said:
You can get multiple quotes on your trade in. We did with my wifes car. It is not unfair for me to assume the dealer wants to gouge me. I have seen it many times first hand let alone thousands and thousands of stories. I understand they need to make a profit to stay in business. But that doesn't have to be an exorbitant amount. I bet many of those dealers went out not because they solely made less money but probably due to despicable practices and people no longer shopping there. The biggest issue is the process and the BS. One can always shop for a better deal endlessly. Why can't dealers just post their price online like pretty much every other type of retail product and let people choose where they purchase it. You look up a TV at Best Buy then see it on Amazon for $200 cheaper. You buy it off amazon and wait or you go to the local best buy and buy it. But there is no BS!

I as an educated consumer know what the invoice is, I know about the holdbacks etc. So I will pay what I deem a fair price. Not more.

Thank you, MikeinDenver. I still say that it is unfair for you the characterize the dealer as wanting to gouge you. They want to earn as much as they can, just as you do on your job. You're not gouging your employer or your customers, are you? Nobody is trying to gouge anybody. There's the retail price, the dealer's invoice, the dealer's actual cost, AND the dealer's inventory cost. When you're buying a car, you're the hero. Of course, it's better for the dealer if you pay full retail, but that's not gouging you. It's the suggested retail. If you don't like the suggestion, offer your educated price.

Some dealers do post prices online. Some price MSRP plus SALE prices. Of course, once you see the SALE price and go to XYZ dealer down the road and buy it for $200 less, that dealer just shot himself in the foot by advertising a sale price. For that reason, many unscrupulous dealers advertise a price that is below cost. No other dealer is going to undercut it. When you show up to buy it, they use all kinds of tricks to either bait and switch or sell additional items to make the deal profitable. With an electric car like the Leaf, the dealer isn't going to earn money servicing it. Keep in mind that the service and parts departments of dealerships absorb the total cost of running the dealership (absorption rate.) The dealers' profit comes from sales of new and used cars.

Yes you can get multiple quotes on your trade-in. In Ohio as in many states, we pay sales tax on the difference between the purchase price and the trade-in.... so it IS advantageous to trade it in instead of selling it outright to CARMAX. Dealers lowball you on your trade-in.... as much as 5 or 6 thousand dollars. They're taking a chance that they will be able to sell your trade and make a profit, so their trade-in allowances are typically very conservative.

Bottom line... the horse trading business IS necessarily complicated. It's not complicated if you agree to pay retail like everyone does when they buy a Tesla vehicle. It is not too complicated for someone like you. I can tell that you have the skills to buy whatever you want. I understand that people want everything simple. The more that something costs, the more complicated the purchase. Automobiles are typically the second largest purchase people make, so buying one will be the second most complicated.
 
kikbuti said:
MikeinDenver said:

Thank you, MikeinDenver. I still say that it is unfair for you the characterize the dealer as wanting to gouge you. They want to earn as much as they can, just as you do on your job. You're not gouging your employer or your customers, are you? Nobody is trying to gouge anybody. There's the retail price, the dealer's invoice, the dealer's actual cost, AND the dealer's inventory cost. When you're buying a car, you're the hero. Of course, it's better for the dealer if you pay full retail, but that's not gouging you. It's the suggested retail. If you don't like the suggestion, offer your educated price.

Some dealers do post prices online. Some price MSRP plus SALE prices. Of course, once you see the SALE price and go to XYZ dealer down the road and buy it for $200 less, that dealer just shot himself in the foot by advertising a sale price. For that reason, many unscrupulous dealers advertise a price that is below cost. No other dealer is going to undercut it. When you show up to buy it, they use all kinds of tricks to either bait and switch or sell additional items to make the deal profitable. With an electric car like the Leaf, the dealer isn't going to earn money servicing it. Keep in mind that the service and parts departments of dealerships absorb the total cost of running the dealership (absorption rate.) The dealers' profit comes from sales of new and used cars.

Yes you can get multiple quotes on your trade-in. In Ohio as in many states, we pay sales tax on the difference between the purchase price and the trade-in.... so it IS advantageous to trade it in instead of selling it outright to CARMAX. Dealers lowball you on your trade-in.... as much as 5 or 6 thousand dollars. They're taking a chance that they will be able to sell your trade and make a profit, so their trade-in allowances are typically very conservative.

Bottom line... the horse trading business IS necessarily complicated. It's not complicated if you agree to pay retail like everyone does when they buy a Tesla vehicle. It is not too complicated for someone like you. I can tell that you have the skills to buy whatever you want. I understand that people want everything simple. The more that something costs, the more complicated the purchase. Automobiles are typically the second largest purchase people make, so buying one will be the second most complicated.


Maybe I am bundling it all together. Selling gap coverage for $800 that you can get for $25 a year is gouging and seriously. I would be willing to pay a bit more if the process was better. But if I know I'm going to have to go through the wringer I'm not going to pay for that privilege. As for the dealer listing it below cost just to get you in there, just walk right back out as soon as that is known. I had an experience at a Ford dealer around Sacramento that had a sticker on a truck of around $14k. I went in and we started the process and they said the price was $24k. I said no no the sticker on the truck said $14k. Well come to find out after the test drive they had swapped the stickers on the truck and it now said $24k. I walked right out and next door. The salesman at the Dodge dealer showed me a sheet showing what they had in stock for what price. Drove it. Bought it. I felt it was a fair price so I paid it, no haggling, no BS. Buying my house was easier than buying a number of cars. That is not how it should be. All a dealer/salesperson has to be is respectful, honest and upfront. There are a million car dealers and no reason to buy at a bad dealer.
 
The long history of why there are dealers to begin with is fascinating. The need for parts distribution and other considerations have led to the antiquated system we have now. Nobody likes it.

The thing that I find most interesting and sad is the fact that these companies spend billions on research and development, produce amazing cars with outstanding engineering, and then have so little control over the last little piece of distribution. Most of the sales folks know so little about their own vehicles. They just need to move the merchandise. So when a vehicle like the Leaf comes along, the company tries to educate the sales force, but usually we know more about the car than they do. This is where the Tesla model is better.
 
dndrich said:
The thing that I find most interesting and sad is the fact that these companies spend billions on research and development, produce amazing cars with outstanding engineering, and then have so little control over the last little piece of distribution.
Very good. That's quite the 'killer argument' to put to the CEO of a few VMs!

Mind you, it is possibly explained that technology developments are lead by engineers who can objectively see what needs to be done, even if the accountants interfere in the resources to do it, whereas the business models for dealerships, parts, servicing, etc., are accountant decisions all the way!! :)
 
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