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Smidge204 said:
DarkStar said:
I have never, never, had my tank filled or seen someone else get theirs filled within 2 minutes (I'm in Oregon though... no self-serve gas). Most gas stations you have to wait in line for, and then wait for the attendant. But then again, what I meant is that when you need one, they'll be plentiful and everywhere you go.



Waiting in line doesn't matter

doesnt matter TO WHO??!!! because i sure as hell dont feel that way and i guess the only one who would feel that way is the person who does not think its a inconvenience to get gas. i dont know ANYONE like that



The notion that you'll leave the house 10 minute earlier and stop by the charging station on your way to work, like you would for gasoline, is completely unrealistic.

umm which is why u plug it in while at home? 110 may be slow but it will work for most of us. 240 is nothing but overhyped BS made to conform to peoples comfort zone

Opportunity charging is not just the optimal model, but really the only workable model. Battery swap stations would only be a niche service that has it's own set of (solvable) problems, but that's another topic.
=Smidge=

bingo!! and the ultimate goal is charging your car ALL the time when its parked ANYWHERE
 
Smidge204 said:
The "gas station" model for EV charging is wrong because a centralized facility for charging is actually counter-productive. Electricity is a low density, high efficiency energy. Hydrocarbon fuel is high density, inefficient energy. That's your trade off, and you pay for it with time-to-transfer. The notion that you'll leave the house 10 minute earlier and stop by the charging station on your way to work, like you would for gasoline, is completely unrealistic. Opportunity charging is not just the optimal model, but really the only workable model.
This requires a paradygm shift, something many are not able to do until they see others who have already made the shift. IMHO, Nissan's tag line Shift the way you move is very appropriate; they need to shift the way people think! Here are some examples of quotes from thoses who hadn't yet made a paradygm shift:
http://wilk4.com/humor/humore10.htm
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
doesnt matter TO WHO??!!!

To the laws of physics! :D


I apologize if the context of what I'm saying isn't clear. Here's the comment I was originally addressing:

DarkStar said:
Obviously, eventually EVSEs will be just like gas stations. When you need one, you just drive a block or two down the road to find one...

Which I take some issue with, since I spent a lot of time arguing against the idea of charging stations being the 1:1 equivalent of gas stations - and argument EV opponents often try to make. My point is there are many reasons that prevent recharging an EV as fast as a gasoline vehicle refuels since electrical energy can only be transferred as a comparatively low rate. That's why the "waiting" portion of your time at a gas station is not relevant when comparing the two at that level.

Electric vehicles require rethinking of how the energy is managed. Right now, vehicle energy (fuel) is managed and distributed at central depots (gas stations). Some people argue that EVs will not be viable because they will not be able to stop at a "charging station" and refill their battery as quickly as they can a gas tank - and they are correct.

My counter-argument is that the very idea of a "central charging depot" is flawed to begin with. People need to discard the idea of needing a special, dedicated facility to re-energize their vehicle.

That is the "paradigm shift" we need as tps so eloquently put it.
=Smidge=
 
My concern with opportunistic charging is that it simply won't scale.

If 10% of Costco's shoppers come in expecting to plug in, that is a whole lot of L2 chargers needed. If there is contention (more cars than chargers), I don't have a lot of faith in my fellow Costco chargers to default to a cooperative system for fair use. I've seen how parking works, shopping carts, and any of the other abused "commons".

It works fine when there are two chargers at a store, and EVs are a novelty. I just don't see this persisting if you predict a future swap of all the Prius cars to EVs. The local mall has "Hybrid Parking Only" spaces (as if more Smug was needed). They're always taken. If this was the ONLY place Hybrids could park, it would fail.

My prediction: Charging is done at your two "home base" locations, maybe work and home.

I have no intention at all of ever taking an "extra-range" trip, with a mandatory charge break. Two reasons:
1) I have no control or priority for the expected charger mid-way
2) I don't want to wait for a charge. If I'm driving 100+ miles to begin with, that's a long time in the car. Adding 30 minutes for a quick charge is just not something I'm going to embrace.
 
its easy to understand the doubts raised with being able to charge everywhere. we are currently so far from that in both the physical and psychological.

and we have a choice. we can either move towards a time where 90% of the parking is devoted to EV's with the remaining gas cars relegated to the back row only or not.
 
GroundLoop said:
2) I don't want to wait for a charge. If I'm driving 100+ miles to begin with, that's a long time in the car. Adding 30 minutes for a quick charge is just not something I'm going to embrace.
Actually ... that 30 minute break "breaks" your trip up a little, makes you a more alert driver, etc. I would be happy to take that break. But I will agree, if there is a significant uncertainty of the charge spot being available it would become a burden. I would not want to wait an undetermined amount of time "in line" to start the charging.
 
i think that it will be months if not at least a year before any area is inundated with Leafs to cause a line up at the charging stations. hopefully synergy of the idea will have taken off by then and many many more will be in the works. i still fully believe that the private sector will take off with the idea when they see the level of adoption of the technology
 
GroundLoop said:
My concern with opportunistic charging is that it simply won't scale.

If 10% of Costco's shoppers come in expecting to plug in, that is a whole lot of L2 chargers needed. If there is contention (more cars than chargers), I don't have a lot of faith in my fellow Costco chargers to default to a cooperative system for fair use. I've seen how parking works, shopping carts, and any of the other abused "commons".

It seems your concern is rooted in a deeper, more generic misanthropy... but for optimism's sake let's say 10% of Costco members want EV charging. In an ideal situation, 10% of Costco's parking lot would eventually be EV charger accessible.

GroundLoop said:
It works fine when there are two chargers at a store, and EVs are a novelty. I just don't see this persisting if you predict a future swap of all the Prius cars to EVs. The local mall has "Hybrid Parking Only" spaces (as if more Smug was needed). They're always taken. If this was the ONLY place Hybrids could park, it would fail.

Please don't confuse opportunistic charging with mandatory charging. That is, even if a charger is not available at my destination, I may not actually need it depending on how local the destination is. If the "Hybrid only" spots are taken, then petition the property owner to assign more spaces.

GroundLoop said:
My prediction: Charging is done at your two "home base" locations, maybe work and home.

I have no intention at all of ever taking an "extra-range" trip, with a mandatory charge break. Two reasons:
1) I have no control or priority for the expected charger mid-way
2) I don't want to wait for a charge. If I'm driving 100+ miles to begin with, that's a long time in the car. Adding 30 minutes for a quick charge is just not something I'm going to embrace.

Here is my personal opinion on a near-optimal infrastructure would look like:

Primary: Just about everyone would have a L2 charger available at their place of residence (house, apartment, condo etc). This would be the primary charging location and handle the bulk of the work.

Secondary: Most (perhaps fewer than above) would also have L2 charging available where they work.

Major destinations: Places that people typically visit for more than one hour at a time would have some number of L2 and L1 charging available. Such places might include large shopping malls, movie theaters, airport and train station parking lots, hotels/motels, amusement parks and some larger restaurants. L1 is more viable given the lengths of time under some situations (eg long-term airport parking).

Minor destinations: Places where people visit typically between 20 minutes to an hour and provide mostly L2 charging. Such places might include smaller shopping centers or large, single stores (eg Costco), most restaurants, salons and boutiques, bus terminals, airport parking lots (short-term/visitor parking), hospitals and other medical centers.

Stopover locations: Places where people are expected to visit only infrequently and for less than 20-30 minutes. These locations would have L2 and L3 charging and include rest stops, roadside diners/fast food/coffee shops and small shopping centers.

And for the really impatient, there is a niche ideally filled by the coveted and nearly mythical battery swap station. Likely to be found only on the outskirts of cities and along intercity highway routes. Lots of little legal/practical issues to hammer out with this plan before widespread adoption but there's at least one company rolling out the technology for it.
=Smidge=
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
i think that it will be months if not at least a year before any area is inundated with Leafs to cause a line up at the charging stations. hopefully synergy of the idea will have taken off by then and many many more will be in the works. i still fully believe that the private sector will take off with the idea when they see the level of adoption of the technology

My thoughts exactly.

If someone snapped their fingers and suddenly 10% of the vehicles on the road were EVs, then yes, infrastructure problems would be all over the place. But the buildup and demand for charging stations, opportunistic charging etc., will occur slowly. Sure, SOMETIMES the Costco charging station will be full....but when it becomes commonplace, then Costco (for example) will hear about it and make the appropriate changes.
 
what we need is legislation mandating each employer provide a growing # of charge stations. L1 is fine. but that wont happen until Nissan proves that the Leaf if here to stay. that will take at least a year of wildly happy Leaf owners spreading the word.

this will cause the money to flow to EV's. then we will see charging stations popping up everywhere. it will be used as an advertising tool.

lets face it, we are bombarded by these tools now

"Kids eat free"
"buffets noon to 3 PM mon-fri"
"buy one get 2nd ½ off"
"Free EV charging"

look at that!! it blends right in!!
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
lets face it, we are bombarded by these tools now

"Kids eat free"
"buffets noon to 3 PM mon-fri"
"buy one get 2nd ½ off"
"Free EV charging"

look at that!! it blends right in!!

WHAT blends right in???

:lol:
 
The eventual distributed-charging solution is like streets and pavement, simple, weatherproof, safe plugin 240v (and possibly 120v) sockets available to every public parking spot. If supported by road-use taxes, like the roads themselves, they will not require billing or any expensive, high-function, credit-card "EVSE" for each parking spot.

There might still be private parking lots, with some additional charging arrangements. Perhaps valet park-n-charge, with an additional fee for the valet service, which might also offer QC services for those grab-n-run shoppers.

Yes, QC charging must be able to operate SAFELY, fill to at least 95%, and be properly regulated by the car's BMS to avoid any abuse or unusual damage to the battery.

Wherever one drives, one simply plugs in their own cord (possibly with one 120/240-socket adapter), capable of using either 120 or 240v to power the car's charger. For now, something like the "universal" 120/240v version of the "included" L1 EVSE.

Then, for longer trips, Quick-E-Fill locations will be necessary, near/on the transportation corridors, used for extended-range trips.

Then, we will have a relatively inexpensive, reasonably efficient, charge-everywhere infrastructure.

$100 per parking spot seems possible, but $3000 is much more of a stretch, especially considering the cost of on-going maintenance required.

In any case, an idea.
 
ok someone probably already posted this one, but what the heck!!

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/12/02/hire-electric-washingtons-largest-solar-charger/
 
Someone earlier mentioned a possible future issue of people going to locations and expecting to charge, but finding it in constant use. A perfect example of this what will happen right away is free parking at the L.A. airport. Even now, with just Rav4's, a few mini-e's and rangers I have seen the parking nearly full. Imagine when a few thousand leafs and volts hit the L.A. area.

Eventually on the site and mobile app, I hope to alleviate some of that through some social networking so people could easily post and you can get on your mobile app, that they are sitting at a location for X number of hours/days, so you know that a certain location is being used. There are no timers currently on any EVSE that I know of that will tell you how long someone is going to be charging.
 
ranchleaf said:
There are no timers currently on any EVSE that I know of that will tell you how long someone is going to be charging.
I put this card on my dash so others know how to get hold of me and how long I need to charge. But connectivity would help.

http://www.evchargernews.com/chargeprotocolcard.pdf
 
KeiJidosha said:
ranchleaf said:
There are no timers currently on any EVSE that I know of that will tell you how long someone is going to be charging.
I put this card on my dash so others know how to get hold of me and how long I need to charge. But connectivity would help.

http://www.evchargernews.com/chargeprotocolcard.pdf

The card is great as a starter for sure, but as you noted about connectivity, being able to get it on your phone or portable device it will be great to know before you show up at the site. Could even add options like OK to pull connector out after X number of hours as well.
 
Jimmydreams said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i think that it will be months if not at least a year before any area is inundated with Leafs to cause a line up at the charging stations. hopefully synergy of the idea will have taken off by then and many many more will be in the works. i still fully believe that the private sector will take off with the idea when they see the level of adoption of the technology

My thoughts exactly.

If someone snapped their fingers and suddenly 10% of the vehicles on the road were EVs, then yes, infrastructure problems would be all over the place. But the buildup and demand for charging stations, opportunistic charging etc., will occur slowly. Sure, SOMETIMES the Costco charging station will be full....but when it becomes commonplace, then Costco (for example) will hear about it and make the appropriate changes.


Agree fully and I think worth stating that the need for opportunistic charging 5, 10, 15 years from now is completely different if the battery technology provides 300 miles per charge. Lots of things moving around in the technology and I think this will all work itself out pretty well.
 
SeattleBlueLeaf said:
Jimmydreams said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i think that it will be months if not at least a year before any area is inundated with Leafs to cause a line up at the charging stations. hopefully synergy of the idea will have taken off by then and many many more will be in the works. i still fully believe that the private sector will take off with the idea when they see the level of adoption of the technology

My thoughts exactly.

If someone snapped their fingers and suddenly 10% of the vehicles on the road were EVs, then yes, infrastructure problems would be all over the place. But the buildup and demand for charging stations, opportunistic charging etc., will occur slowly. Sure, SOMETIMES the Costco charging station will be full....but when it becomes commonplace, then Costco (for example) will hear about it and make the appropriate changes.


Agree fully and I think worth stating that the need for opportunistic charging 5, 10, 15 years from now is completely different if the battery technology provides 300 miles per charge. Lots of things moving around in the technology and I think this will all work itself out pretty well.

Having been an ev driver for a decade now and also driving and charging when there were just a few hundred left in the bay area I can tell you all how surprised you all are going to be how often they'll be used. Particularly the popular ones, like Costco(as you mentioned) or anything near good stuff like restaurants, coffee shops, etc. Remember the airport and other places like it will be hammered due to free parking.

Also here is why I am so excited about the carstations site. It can be more than just where sites are. As I mentioned before we hope to allow folks to use current technology to "check-in" at these sites, letting people know where and how long they'll be charging. Remember, people will be be spending significant time at these stations. What is occurring here at this forum site is only the tip of the iceberg of what will occur in person for the first few years as far as community is concerned. In addition to knowing that popular site A is being used for 2 hours so we can find another one quickly to charge at; I think we'll all find quickly we'll want to know if there is a friendly hanging out(checked in) on EVSE 1 so we can also sit and chat while we charge at EVSE 2 :)

this is the reason i got involved with the carstations.com site and now will be running it. having dreamed of this day coming for years I want to see good, fun accurate info about these charge sites. Not just boring coordinates, but the interesting info that's going to make it truly useful for everyone. I believe we'll be going back to the future in our EV travels, taking a breath and making some new friends along the way.

David
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
comment on duplicity; when talking about any software app, there are a lot of apps that supposedly do the same thing. now how well they work across multiple platforms, user interface, server reliability, etc. is really not quantifiable in advance. so to say "been there, done that" to something that has just started is a bit presumptuous at this point.

I think you're mixing up data with interface. Interfaces can change but the data is the same no matter the interface. Data like where a station is, is it in service and level are all pieces of information that seem more cloud oriented than centralized. I would much rather see a joint effort to create some kind of Google spreadsheet or some such purely data-driven back end that all front-ends use to present the different interfaces to the data they wish to present. Sharing the data collection goal benefits everyone and allows each site to add their own special bells and whistles. It you all agree to use the same source data, then you all benefit from the shared information equally and you can truly compete on aesthetics.
 
ranchleaf said:
Also here is why I am so excited about the carstations site. It can be more than just where sites are. As I mentioned before we hope to allow folks to use current technology to "check-in" at these sites, letting people know where and how long they'll be charging.

The last thing I'm going to want to do when looking for a charge is get into a "Facebook/Twitter-wanna-be" state of mind and let me friends know that I'm cooling my heels at exit 14 waiting for the car in front of me to move. Am I missing the gene that requires I regularly tweet? :shock:
 
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