How much mileage are you getting in this cold weather ?

Well, I don't think it was the cold that got me today but the wind. We are having some significant wind today. About 20mph from the north, exactly the direction I was going. Aurora to Fort Collins with a 100% charge usually gets me home with a few miles to spare, but right now my car is parked at the end of my street where it finally turtled out. Ambient is in the upper 40's so if that's the cause of the mileage loss, I'm defiantly going to have to take the ICE on my trips to Denver going forward.

It was the wind, all right.

I have yet to ever duplicate that first trip. NEVER get their with 43 miles left (does the gom "adjust" as you go?? ie adapt?)

I also never get a full charge anymore. I know I have lost around 10% of the battery capacity if I am reading leaf spy right but SOC never goes to 100% every. 90 to 93 percent tops.

why does it stop charging early? why won't it charge to 100% available capacity or am I misreading something?

Here is today's leafspy from the trip to work in EHC



what do you guys think? seems I need 11.7kw to get to work (light wind 62' no climate control)

I will do it again tomorrow night when I go home to see if there is any change.

seems I have 7.3kw of excess capacity.

What do you guys think my prospects are for a sub 20' drive like this? do I have sufficient excess to make the trip do you think? with and or without heat ? how close would it be?

I have never actually run the car "empty" because it just takes too long to recharge it until I have L2 charging (2 weeks fingers crossed) so I have no idea what its drop dead range is really going to be.

I am also confused by the readings I am getting. it seems the battery depletes faster in the beginning and then stabilizes. for example driving a flat steady 50mph I definitely get over 5m/kw I drove a 5m segment and only lost .9kw

my trip has what I call 2 legs. the start is some stop and go climb over the BBB bridge etc..

I use the jacksonville rt20 intersection as the hand off or about 13.4miles. that segment I used 3.3kw (far lower than 5m/kw) (right at 4m/kw)

the second segment is pretty constant 50mph with only a couple stops (3 or 4 typically sometimes less if I time the lights right get lucky etc..)

that segment is 39.5miles and used 8.4kw for 4.7m/kw

all this as per leafspy readings.

leaf spy says I have 34.5m to 0% for whatever that is worth

the reason I split the trip is I know its different driving types for those 2 basic segments and also in a pinch I think there is an L2 charging station I can use about a half mile down from where I turn off on columbus rd. so if I got "stuck" at work and the weather turns too cold I MIGHT be able to make it to that charging station and just chill for an hour to add another 15 miles to the car to make the last leg home.

any feedback is greatly appreciated. I really wish I could just toss another 5kw battery into the trunk and be done with it this car REALLY needs just a teeny tiny bit more capacity. Just a tiny bit more to be really worry free.

oddly enough I have no concerns for delivery since I will for started soon have L2 charging at work and second I am never more than 7 miles from the store where I can switch to my backup ice if I need too (94 metro xfi)

which I hopefully won't need once I can L2 charge (have had to use it 3 times now all 3 times I could have finished in the leaf but it would have been "close" and I have a rule. don't use it once I get down to 20 miles range just in case so I KNOW I can get the car home no matter what. so I have 1600 miles so far gas free and have had to put maybe 2 gallons into the metro in total not bad at all for L1 charging limits!

AlanSqB said:

Well, I don't think it was the cold that got me today but the wind. We are having some significant wind today. About 20mph from the north, exactly the direction I was going. Aurora to Fort Collins with a 100% charge usually gets me home with a few miles to spare, but right now my car is parked at the end of my street where it finally turtled out. Ambient is in the upper 40's so if that's the cause of the mileage loss, I'm defiantly going to have to take the ICE on my trips to Denver going forward.

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Maybe charge a bit near your destination? That should allow you to still burn electrons instead of petrol.

I would normally have stopped at the QC in Loveland for 5-10 minutes as insurance, but it has been down for weeks. I got my wife to tow me to the house and then ran an extension cord out to the car to use with the trickle charger. It took over two hours to get it charged enough to pull into the garage where the L2 is. There is no way to push this heavy beast uphill. Feels like pushing an suv.

Lesson learned, stay off E-470. Even if it means sitting in traffic.

yeah and holy crap that E470. drove on that down to pueblo when I was there this summer $13.40 freaking dollars. ouch. (just got the bill in the mail)

Some times I think Denver traffic is so bad on purpose so you have to take the overpriced toll roads. I swear the traffic is worse than any othe metro area I've been to.

Nice how they don't tell you the cost, right? Just lots of signs telling you not to worry, you'll get your bill in the mail. I imagine quite a few people are shocked when it arrives. Especially if you are in a rental and they tack on another surcharge of like $10.

AlanSqB said:

I would normally have stopped at the QC in Loveland for 5-10 minutes as insurance, but it has been down for weeks. I got my wife to tow me to the house and then ran an extension cord out to the car to use with the trickle charger. It took over two hours to get it charged enough to pull into the garage where the L2 is. There is no way to push this heavy beast uphill. Feels like pushing an suv.

Lesson learned, stay off E-470. Even if it means sitting in traffic.

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E470 will drain the battery like no other. I live right near it but I will not take it to the airport, I take gun club because it is so much more efficient battery and wallet wise.

nerys said:

I have yet to ever duplicate that first trip. NEVER get their with 43 miles left (does the gom "adjust" as you go?? ie adapt?)

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Yes, the GOM varies depending on recent driving. If you are going uphill it thinks you are going uphill forever. If going downhill it thinks you are going downhill forever. If you have been driving at 65 mph for awhile it thinks you will be doing that forever. The GOM is useless and should be ignored. Talking about GOM miles as if they were real just leads to confusion.

I also never get a full charge anymore. I know I have lost around 10% of the battery capacity if I am reading leaf spy right but SOC never goes to 100% every. 90 to 93 percent tops.

why does it stop charging early? why won't it charge to 100% available capacity or am I misreading something?

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The LEAF will only allow you to charge to 93-95% of battery capacity and I think that's what LEAF Spy displays: "True State of Charge". That's likely why you don't see 100% on LEAF Spy. [The %SOC meter on newer LEAFs does go to "100%" but that's because it adjusts to always display a full charge that way, regardless of the actual SOC or battery capacity.]

You might get closer to the 95% maximum if the battery is balanced. If you routinely charge to "100%" it is likely that your battery is balanced. If not, that might be why you get a slightly lower figure, although that's just a guess. So, no, your battery seems fine, if somewhat degraded.

Others who use LEAF Spy may be able to give you more detailed information about precisely what it is displaying.

Got my first taste of what cold does to my range today. 53 mile roundtrip commute took 65% of my battery according to the dash today when it normally takes more like 55%. It was 35, windy, and light snow on the way home. Not bad but I still am a little worried about what even colder temps and snow on the ground would do. Battery started the day warm, 6 bars, ended the day with 4.

Can you shift this cold stuff you are talking about down here? We hit 90 over the weekend in Dallas. I want cold weather! Its almost November!

Nfuzzy said:

Got my first taste of what cold does to my range today. 53 mile roundtrip commute took 65% of my battery according to the dash today when it normally takes more like 55%. It was 35, windy, and light snow on the way home. Not bad but I still am a little worried about what even colder temps and snow on the ground would do. Battery started the day warm, 6 bars, ended the day with 4.

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what was you heater temp setting? did you use heated seats?

I used no heat or accessories other the radio. The car had captured enough sun during the day I guess, really didn't need it.

wow 10% drop in the efficiency just due to the cold weather..seems excessive, were you driving at your normal speed?

what were the outside temperatures that day?

range drops relative to the outside temperature:
http://canadianleaf.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/leaf-range-vs-temperature-after-two-winters/

his conclusions regarding how leaf performs in the winter:
Range definitely drops but how much it drops mainly depends on how much you use the cabin heater, not necessarily on the outside temperature.
If you heat up the cabin like a furnace and drive like there is no tomorrow, your typical 140 km range can easily drop all the way down to 60 km or even less. But if you manage to keep your cabin cool, drive conservatively, and use some of the techniques described below, you can still drive 100 km under fairly low temperatures.
With a short commute like mine (17 to 29 km each way), winter range is rarely a concern. However, if I need to run some errands in the evening, I do need to top off the charge during supper. To me, that’s main difference between summer and winter. In the summer, I rarely need to charge during the day.
During the weekends, most of our driving is spread out during the course of the day, with many opportunities to recharge at home. For longer than usual winter drives, we take our range extender (my wife’s car).
Heavy snow fall increases rolling resistance, and heavy freezing rain requires you to run the windshield defrost most of the time. I find these two conditions actually worse than a bone chilling but sunny day.
There are several techniques you can use to minimize the use of the cabin heater. It is essential to pre-heat the car before you leave, using grid power, and take advantage of the heated seats and heated steering wheels, and keep your winter jacket on.
The 2013 model has a more efficient cabin heater that is expected to perform better than the one that I have, but its performance is yet to be tested under very low temperatures.
Range concerns aside, the Leaf is the most comfortable car I’ve ever had in the winter. The extra weight from the batteries and the traction control system make it very safe to drive under heavy snow and slush conditions. It doesn’t have any problem “starting” in the cold, or that heavy and sluggish feeling of a gas car in the winter.

My wife had a bad experience end of last week somewhat related to cold.. She still isn't sure what exactly she did. My guess is that she kicked the defrost on set to a warm temp and left it all the way out. Her trip should have been about 82 miles R/T which is fairly comfortably within our normal 'summer' range (expect return about 5% remaining). She was on the return trip (estimate about 50 miles into trip) and noticed that the car was reporting less than 20% remaining which would not be enough to make it all the way home.

Anyway, she experienced range anxiety for the first time. Found her a charger at a whole foods market and she got about an hour of L2 there before finishing trip home. Now she is more concerned about such trips so we need to benchmark our range - may have to use the gas van on more of these trips during the cold weather. No charging available at her destination so pretty much have to make the R/T (planned stop en-route are out due to time constraints - Friday I had to leave work to pick kids up as a result of this...)

Anyway - once I figure out our range will post, I do wonder where it will land.

2012 with 90% battery (degredation) i get 80 to 85 miles to a charge

How low a temp can i drive and still get 55 miles range? (No heat i have a little gas heater for that)

Maybe seat warmers on (i find they dont seem to take much power)

Work is 55 miles away once a week (yes will 100% charge at work)

Thoughts? This is se pa and s jersey.

This thread got me thinking of factors that could affect range in cold weather. Clearly the battery temperature change would be a factor, but in my case this may well be mitigated by parking in our garage and/or charging to heat the batteries prior to leaving.

Wind resistance came to mind. A google search popped a page up that, while I haven't studied his equations close, seems somewhat well reasoned: http://www.xenodochy.org/ex/index.html?abstract/mileage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The conclusion he draws seems to indicate that for each 10*f drop in temperature, wind resistance decreases fuel economy by about 2% (and I'd figure that should translate into range for us). Obviously actual drag coefficient would have to be considered, but if this is accurate, then range of 90 miles at 80* temps could fall to 81 miles at 30*f (50* difference -> 5*2%=10% reduction, 90-10%=81 miles). That is rather significant and clearly could be even more dramatic at higher speeds.

Anyone vouch for the methodology and/or conclusions here?

Slow1 said:

...The conclusion he draws seems to indicate that for each 10*f drop in temperature, wind resistance decreases fuel economy by about 2% (and I'd figure that should translate into range for us). Obviously actual drag coefficient would have to be considered, but if this is accurate, then range of 90 miles at 80* temps could fall to 81 miles at 30*f (50* difference -> 5*2%=10% reduction, 90-10%=81 miles). That is rather significant and clearly could be even more dramatic at higher speeds.

Anyone vouch for the methodology and/or conclusions here?

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Those numbers seem reasonable to me. In addition to increased drag, cold temperatures also cause increased rolling resistance, due to cold tires and gear lube. Another factor is that a cold battery has reduced capacity, although that depends a lot on whether the car is kept in a garage that is above ambient temperature and how it being charged, since charging warms the battery significantly (unless the battery is extremely cold, in which case the charging speed slows drastically).

Another consideration in Nfuzzy's report above, which has nothing to do with temperature, is wind. That can reduce range by a lot. As can heavy rain and snow, of course.

No, the heater isn't the only culprit in reduced winter range.

Thanks for the feedback. As I said it was also windy last night, so that probably paid a large role as well. Most of the time my commute is half that distance so I don't have as many data points on that longer distance yet.

Well 13 most of the day with a high of maybe 20. Got to try out the heated steering wheel and seat, and used a bit of heat but not the whole commute. Gets warm fast! Used 40% of the battery compared to the normal 30% but then I was driving no more than 45 when 55-65 is the norm. Battery started the day at 4 temp bars and ended at 3. All in all not bad, bring on the colder temps tomorrow!