Mini-QC Rapid-Charger (RC) Project for LEAF QC Port

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valerun said:
We will be posting a demo of the 240VAC supply shortly (the one we just posted was a demo equivalent to 3-phase 380V supply).
Anyone else picturing something that has a J1772 receptacle on it than can do up to 80A on 208-240VAC for 20 kW charging on the road? :) And then plug into a NEMA 14-50 at home for 10 kW charging at home.
 
drees said:
valerun said:
We will be posting a demo of the 240VAC supply shortly (the one we just posted was a demo equivalent to 3-phase 380V supply).
Anyone else picturing something that has a J1772 receptacle on it than can do up to 80A on 208-240VAC for 20 kW charging on the road? :) And then plug into a NEMA 14-50 at home for 10 kW charging at home.
I'm curious about loss %. 240VAC to DC traction battery, versus 3-phase 380V (via a relatively efficient 240V to 380V - 3 phase rotary converter/motor) to traction battery loss.
.
 
hill said:
drees said:
valerun said:
We will be posting a demo of the 240VAC supply shortly (the one we just posted was a demo equivalent to 3-phase 380V supply).
Anyone else picturing something that has a J1772 receptacle on it than can do up to 80A on 208-240VAC for 20 kW charging on the road? :) And then plug into a NEMA 14-50 at home for 10 kW charging at home.
I'm curious about loss %. 240VAC to DC traction battery, versus 3-phase 380V (via a relatively efficient 240V to 380V - 3 phase rotary converter/motor) to traction battery loss.
.

Yes we were wondering about that, too. Unfortunately such a mechanical converter is quite heavy.

For our systems (assuming output is ~400VDC for a Leaf):
* A 208/240VAC system is ~95% efficient at 240VAC input / 22kW output, ~94% at 208V input / 18kW output
* A 380VAC system is ~96% efficient at 25kW output
* A 600VAC system is ~94% efficient at 18kW output

In all cases, the heat output is ~1kW - this is about as much as we can get out of that enclosure with air cooling before we hit thermal derating with 25C ambient (derating happens starting at 55C
heatsink temp).

J1772 input is possible. It's a good idea for us to demo sometime soon - thanks for suggestion. The chargers already support J1772 protocol natively so this should be relatively seamless.

V
 
Would this theoretically allow a Tesla without the second on-board charger to achieve 20kW charging from an 80amp J1772 charger by using this device combined with a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter? Probably not at all cost effective, but a cool thought nonetheless.
 
NYLEAF said:
Would this theoretically allow a Tesla without the second on-board charger to achieve 20kW charging from an 80amp J1772 charger by using this device combined with a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter? Probably not at all cost effective, but a cool thought nonetheless.

theoretically - yes. Practically, I would just add a second charger (I think it's a Tesla-supported upgrade for $4-5k, right?)
 
valerun said:
NYLEAF said:
Would this theoretically allow a Tesla without the second on-board charger to achieve 20kW charging from an 80amp J1772 charger by using this device combined with a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter? Probably not at all cost effective, but a cool thought nonetheless.

theoretically - yes. Practically, I would just add a second charger (I think it's a Tesla-supported upgrade for $4-5k, right?)

$3500 installed.

http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/2nd-onboard-charger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
First of all, a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this project. It's a remarkable piece of engineering, electrically and mechanically.

Even though I'm not an expert in high power electronics I have a background in tube guitar amp building. So I had a look at the EMW charger schematics. The power stage uses some serial/stacked capacitors in order to increase the maximum voltage. This is common practice in tube amps, as well. However, it seems advisable to add balancing resistors so the two caps share the voltage equally. Without balancing resistors the center voltage is not guaranteed to be at half the total voltage and may drift due to age, temperature and tolerances. Eventually, one of the caps may experience a voltage in excess of its rating which will destroy it. Two 100k 1/2W resistors in parallel to the caps should do the trick.

The discussion about the QC connector pins and materials also caught my attention. I did some research on IEC 60309 plugs which are rated up to 125A. These are somewhat similar in construction and contact design. The pin material on these industry standard plugs is brass up to 32A and nickel (or nickel coated brass) for 63A and 125A. However, I was unable to find out the exact plug and pin diameters. I have some 16A plugs at home and the pin diameters are 5mm for the phases and 7mm for the neutral. Since there are so many different types of these plugs I'm wondering if there is one that has 9mm pins. These may be a good starting point for a DIY chademo connector. I will go to a hardware store and take measurements.
 
Heinz said:
First of all, a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this project. It's a remarkable piece of engineering, electrically and mechanically.

Even though I'm not an expert in high power electronics I have a background in tube guitar amp building. So I had a look at the EMW charger schematics. The power stage uses some serial/stacked capacitors in order to increase the maximum voltage. This is common practice in tube amps, as well. However, it seems advisable to add balancing resistors so the two caps share the voltage equally. Without balancing resistors the center voltage is not guaranteed to be at half the total voltage and may drift due to age, temperature and tolerances. Eventually, one of the caps may experience a voltage in excess of its rating which will destroy it. Two 100k 1/2W resistors in parallel to the caps should do the trick.

The discussion about the QC connector pins and materials also caught my attention. I did some research on IEC 60309 plugs which are rated up to 125A. These are somewhat similar in construction and contact design. The pin material on these industry standard plugs is brass up to 32A and nickel (or nickel coated brass) for 63A and 125A. However, I was unable to find out the exact plug and pin diameters. I have some 16A plugs at home and the pin diameters are 5mm for the phases and 7mm for the neutral. Since there are so many different types of these plugs I'm wondering if there is one that has 9mm pins. These may be a good starting point for a DIY chademo connector. I will go to a hardware store and take measurements.

Thanks Heinz for your kind words and for your suggestions. You are absolutely correct regarding balancing resistors. This will have to be done in the next revision of the boards.

Regarding pins - after a reasonably long search, we now can finally make complete plugs with pins and all. We have found a local 3D print shop that is not charging an arm and a leg for large prints and who was willing to work with us through 3+ iterations of the build parameters to avoid warping, account for shrinkage, etc, etc. We have also found a precision machine shop that could build the pins to our exact specs. Finally, we found a precision plating shop that could nickel & silver-plate our pins to the same spec as Nissan parts (yes, we measured the silver thickness with precision instruments). large 9mm pins are pure 110 copper with 1 mil silver plate, small signal pins are brass with 0.5 mil nickel plate.

Pins pic attached. You can now buy the plugs from our store with just 2-week lead time.

Val
 

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Val, great work on the pins. We've been going through much the same motions with our own pin production issues, so I am intimately familiar with how much leg work is required.
 
The pins are beautiful.

I have read through the whole thread (which took me quite a while ;) ) and I noticed that the idea of using server power supplies was abandoned. I still believe that this approach has some potential so I would like to revive the discussion. It looks like CISCO power supplies could be a good starting point. They provide almost all their power on a 42V output and they come in different power ratings up to 8.7kw (continuous). The most interesting one is in fact the 8.7kw unit (WS-CAC-8700WE). It has a 3-phase input and provides all the neat stuff like galvanic isolation, short circuit protection and PFC. It doesn't even need a trigger for starting up. In addition, these units are rated for 300.000h MTBF so they are very sturdy. The unit weighs 18kg so it is still somewhat portable. Specs can be found here:
http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/doc...s_Installation/Cat6500/6500_ins/0apwsply.html

There is currently one on ebay for around 400€.

To turn these into a charger we would need to add a DC converter (probably a buck-boost) to step up the charging voltage to 400V and make it adjustable. I have a feeling that this circuit can be relatively simple, small and inexpensive.

I know that 8.7kw is far below the targeted charging power but it is still a lot more than the measly 3.7kw in the 2011 models and even more than the 6.6kw in the newer models. Power could be increased by combining multiple smaller units (e.g. 3x4kw, one per phase). Connecting them in a serial configuration would require modifications to the power supplies (disconnect DC side from AC ground). Connecting them in parallel may kill them (and even if it is possible the currents will exceed 250A) so it's probably not a good idea. It would also become very heavy but might still be usable as a stationary/home charger.
 
garygid said:
We intend to deliver our work into the public domain, and we
request that our collaborators endorse this same philosophy.


Thanks everyone for sharing this info, it is terribly appreciated.
I've got a plug printing (thanks jclemens!), is there an implementation of a ch@demo controller posted somewhere for reference, or other useful information can message repository that I might have missed somewhere?
 
Heinz said:
I know that 8.7kw is far below the targeted charging power but it is still a lot more than the measly 3.7kw in the 2011 models and even more than the 6.6kw in the newer models.

This is what I'm hoping to accomplish too, use existing power supplies up to the 10kw range and a buck converter/controller. but so far the messaging part is still pretty cryptic, and it is just a convenience to avoid hacking the battery connectors really.
 
Greetings!

I'm an owner of the Tesla Model S, and recently acquired the CHAdeMO adapter. I already have dual changers in the car and can charge at 20kW from 240VAC/80A, and supercharging is enabled for DC charging.

However, I've been working on a large off-grid solar project that has roughly 4000Ah of 48VDC battery storage (salvage modules from totaled Tesla Model S), over 44kW of PV input, and 64kW worth of off-grid DC->AC inverters. Ideally, I'd love a complete DC->DC charging solution, a possibility opened up by the CHAdeMO adapter since it supports DC charging up to 50kW/125A. I figure DC->DC would have to be more efficient, and possibly higher power, than DC->AC->DC that is done with normal at home charging @ 240VAC/80A from my inverter bank. (Some details here on the TMC forum: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34531-Plan-Off-grid-solar-with-a-Model-S-battery-pack-at-the-heart?p=916002&viewfull=1#post916002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Fortunately with the Tesla I have no need to build a CHAdeMO connector. I can simply dismantle the adapter and make direct connections if desired. (After buying a second adapter for this purpose that is, hehe)

Anyway, unfortunately I don't have time to read this thread's dozens of pages and hundreds of posts... but how are you folks making out with this? Any hope for my 40-50VDC input 40-50kW CHAdeMO charger using anything you guys have come up with? :)

Someone at the TMC forum directed me here when I started a thread about a DIY CHAdeMO charger ( http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/43453-DIY-DC-DC-Charging-Station" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Thanks. :)

-wk
 
Hello veteran Leafers!
I took delivery of a 2013 Leaf S WITH Chademo and 6 KW charger
on MONDAY in Virginia. And had an adventure driving it back
to Northern NJ - 277 miles in in 60-mile increments.

I guess trying to get 84 miles to a charge (or 100!)
was optimistic for a new Leaf owner.

Although work should be an easy trip,
I REALLY would love to be able to get a bit more range.

I am here to learn about and perhaps help
with building/testing a Chademo "Dump Charger."
My Camry EV project got stuck in the long list of todos for it
and other unrelated projects...

So, I have 50 Thundersky 100Ah cells available
to see if they fit in the trunk or on a cargo tray
That would be about 18.2KWh = about 55-60 mi.
I have a Manzanita Micro PFC charger for the cells.

On Wednesday, I drive to work with 2 other adults.
Going, I used local streets which saves energy
and bypasses the 3 miles of traffic at the George
Washington Bridge. No time was lost in that choice.
At work, the meter said I had 45 miles. The trip is 30.
So, I used the highway and had heat on.
When I dropped off my carpool guy, I had 7 miles.
When I turned the corner and went up the hill
to my house (3 blocks), it went to empty.

I am still learning how to conserve energy,
mostly in Accessories.

On Thursday, I had a brief conversation with my boss.
I had asked about EV charging 8 years ago...
He said to talk to the CFO, and it will happen :)
Other divisions of our organization have L2 in
their paid parking lots. (If I had a meeting there,
I could park for free)

I am quite flexible. If they give me an outlet,
I'll be able to get home. If they give me an L2,
I'll be able to go visit my brother up in Yorktown after work :)
If they give me a DCQC..... :)


I don't know a lot about power supplies,
but I do know a bit about communication...
I do UNIX Systems Integration for a hospital.

(I actually learned in school how to calculate
the bandwidth of a T1 circuit, 1/4 century ago :)


Seth
in Northern NJ
 
PS another thought....

It sounds like the communication protocol for Chademo is almost
reverse-engineered....I imagine there should be documentation on
Combined Charging System DC fast charging.

Would it be possible to build a black box, a dongle,or an adapter
that plugs into the Chademo socket and accepts a CCS?
Or perhaps it spans the J1772 and the Chademo and presents a CCS.

(or for that matter, Tesla Super Charger port :)

Likewise, I would like to have the ability to use
L2 or Chademo or CCS to recharge my dump charger pack ...

I could drive 1.5 hours, stop at a scenic overlook and dump charge,
drive another 1.5 hours to a full service stop, hook the car
to the Chademo or CCS, and hook the dump charger up to L2 charging....
 
pachai126 said:
PS another thought....

It sounds like the communication protocol for Chademo is almost
reverse-engineered....I imagine there should be documentation on
Combined Charging System DC fast charging.

There's nothing to "reverse engineer"... use the actual documention from the CHAdeMO Association or from SAE.

Would it be possible to build a black box, a dongle,or an adapter
that plugs into the Chademo socket and accepts a CCS?


Of course. How much time and money do you want to devote to this?


Or perhaps it spans the J1772 and the Chademo and presents a CCS.


This sounds far more expensive and clunky.


(or for that matter, Tesla Super Charger port :)


What exactly would that do for you?


Likewise, I would like to have the ability to use
L2 or Chademo or CCS to recharge my dump charger pack ...


$$$$
 
pachai126 said:
So, I have 50 Thundersky 100Ah cells available
to see if they fit in the trunk or on a cargo tray
That would be about 18.2KWh = about 55-60 mi.
I have a Manzanita Micro PFC charger for the cells.

I think your best bet to use these would be to rig them up to provide power for an EVSE. If you're parked at work for at least 5 hrs even if they are just supplying the 120v 1kWish unit that comes with that car that will put 1kWh into the battery for every hour you're parked, or about 4.5%.

It would be best to size it so that you aren't hauling extra weight that you don't need so that the batteries have maybe 10-20% more capacity than what you use in a full work day.

If you want more single charge range it would become much more complex.

pachai126 said:
On Wednesday, I drive to work with 2 other adults.
Going, I used local streets which saves energy
and bypasses the 3 miles of traffic at the George
Washington Bridge. No time was lost in that choice.
At work, the meter said I had 45 miles. The trip is 30.
So, I used the highway and had heat on.
When I dropped off my carpool guy, I had 7 miles.
When I turned the corner and went up the hill
to my house (3 blocks), it went to empty.

Don't pay any attention to the miles left on the gauge, or Guess O Meter (GOM). Use the % gauge and start to learn the different legs of your trip that take different amounts. On every trip reset the mile/kWh gauge. Do a reset for to work and for home. One will almost always be higher, that's the uphill leg and/or against the prevalent winds(unless your home and work are at the same elevation and there isn't much wind). It's easier to live with the leaf when your return trip is the one that requires less juice as the error in the GOM will favour you. We really are getting off topic here but you can read about it in other posts and continue with questions there.
 
I hope I am not causing any inconvenience by posting to an old thread but I am hoping to tap into the wealth of knowledge that is out there and this might be relevant to this project.

Here in New Zealand we have started to see more DCQC being installed with the first in our capital city Wellington opened two days ago. We have an issue with the charge finish level, especially when the DCQC is set to 80% on the 2011-2012 Leafs that are sourced via Japan and as it has now been seen on two different makes of CHAdeMO DCQC it might also be relevant to more DCQC like this project.

The symptoms are with a 80% termination set on the charger a 2014 Leaf works as expected and charge terminates at 80% on the car dash display and about 80% SOC on Leaf Spy. For the 2011-2012 models the charge stops at lower levels - e.g. "When the fast charger was done leaf spy pro reported battery charge statuses of 73, 73, and 70% in the 3 cars. We also tried charging 2 of the leafs to maximum on the fast charger, which turned out to be 95% on the fast charger screen. That gave 86.7% and 80.1% SOC for the 2 leafs"

The chargers display the SOC which I assume is being signalled from the car although I have not yet found any obvious reference to this message type in these threads. There is discussion on this issue at https://www.facebook.com/groups/NZEVOwners/permalink/1674356442831663/

There are indications that some of the firmware updates to the 2011-12 Leafs might be relevant but there may be differences between the US and Japan market models. Can anyone please advise whether there have been issues with different reported SOC values between DCQC and Leaf Spy for 2011-12 models and if so the improvement achieved for which firmware update.
 
Hi Don.

Its a very complex issue. Its CANBUS messages and HOW they are interpreted.

A software update won't fix it, its the controller itself.

Early Leafs and Veefill are not 100% compatible, welcome to being an early adoptor :)
 
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