2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

dgpcolorado said:

For the future, always have the LEAF in Ready-to-drive mode (green car icon on dash) when using it to jump another car. That way the main traction battery is being used to support the 12 V battery. And be sure to attach the negative jump cable to a fitting away from the battery terminal because there is a sensor attached to the negative terminal.

Click to expand...

What is this sensor, and why does it matter? The entire leaf, and all of its possibly delicate electronics is connected to the positive terminal, so why connect there?

Seriously, if you want the current for the jump to come from the battery, and be most isolated from the leaf by the low impedance of the battery, you should connect to the leaf's battery, both terminals. That way, if you get inductive spikes from the other car's system, it goes straight to your battery, and the (small) resistance of the ground cable and connection in the leaf is bypassed.

So, what is this magic sensor that people refer to, and why would it affect things?

Whatever you do, make sure that the last connection made, and the first removed, is ground to a point away from the battery on the car being started, so the (hopefully small) spark will not happen near the battery.

alanlarson said:

dgpcolorado said:

For the future, always have the LEAF in Ready-to-drive mode (green car icon on dash) when using it to jump another car. That way the main traction battery is being used to support the 12 V battery. And be sure to attach the negative jump cable to a fitting away from the battery terminal because there is a sensor attached to the negative terminal.

Click to expand...

What is this sensor, and why does it matter? The entire leaf, and all of its possibly delicate electronics is connected to the positive terminal, so why connect there?

Seriously, if you want the current for the jump to come from the battery, and be most isolated from the leaf by the low impedance of the battery, you should connect to the leaf's battery, both terminals. That way, if you get inductive spikes from the other car's system, it goes straight to your battery, and the (small) resistance of the ground cable and connection in the leaf is bypassed.

So, what is this magic sensor that people refer to, and why would it affect things?

Whatever you do, make sure that the last connection made, and the first removed, is ground to a point away from the battery on the car being started, so the (hopefully small) spark will not happen near the battery.

Click to expand...

It's a current sensor. I presume the issue is the car will see that more current is going into the battery than is normal and then throw an error code or maybe it could cause the battery to be overcharged? I'm not sure if anyone has described WHY it's a good idea to not connect to the negative terminal but it's been made clear that it is a good idea...

alanlarson said:

What is this sensor, and why does it matter? The entire leaf, and all of its possibly delicate electronics is connected to the positive terminal, so why connect there?

Seriously, if you want the current for the jump to come from the battery, and be most isolated from the leaf by the low impedance of the battery, you should connect to the leaf's battery, both terminals. That way, if you get inductive spikes from the other car's system, it goes straight to your battery, and the (small) resistance of the ground cable and connection in the leaf is bypassed.

So, what is this magic sensor that people refer to, and why would it affect things?

Whatever you do, make sure that the last connection made, and the first removed, is ground to a point away from the battery on the car being started, so the (hopefully small) spark will not happen near the battery.

Click to expand...

Completely wrong.
See the instructions from Ingineer (Phil Sadow) inventor of evseupgrade who knows what he is talking about at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6707&hilit=jump&start=10#p148133" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Read the whole topic as there are more details and pictures later in the topic.

The LEAF battery is a small capacity low CCA and is not suitable for jump starting. But with the LEAF in Ready you have the very robust DC to DC power supply providing the power which is what you need.

QueenBee is correct that connecting direct to LEAF battery mainly generates risk of causing an error code. But direct connection of both leads to a battery is always a bad idea due to hydrogen gas explosion risk.

But the bigger risk of that is on the vehicle that has the discharged battery that you are jumping. So the connections on that vehicle should be done first using ground away from the battery and removed last after the vehicle is running.

RegGuheert is on the right track.


I put a volt meter in the acc outlet and told my wife to start watching how long it stays at 14.4 before it drops on here 20 mile commute. I have noticed that the 2 year old battery never seems to have a full charge. For the last 2 weeks she said it never stayed at 14.4 for more than a few minutes. Then suddenly today she said she left work and it stayed at 14.4 the whole way home. WTF???? Once in 2 weeks????

This charge profile is not going to work. I am willing to bet if anyone with a 2 year old battery or older would go have a proper load test done they would find the battery would not pass. Something is very wrong with the charging algorithm.

Now I have a few comments to add.
1. We know the onboard dc to dc charge system is not working

2. The original batteries in the 2011 2012 cars were manufactured in Japan and they are a much higher quality battery.

3. 99% of the batteries made in the US are Johnson Controls which are Junk! I am sure the Smyna plant is using one of these.

4. In the US only East Penn/Decka , Enyersys, Trojan, Concord and a few other make the highest quality batteries in the US. They are the ones who make the AGM batteries. I will not use anything from Johnson Controls. Delco used to be great until Johnson got them too.

5. Someone suggested a deep cycle style battery and I think that would be very wise if you can find one that fits.

6. Installing an onboard charger that puts out say around 5 or 6 amps hardwired to run during L1 or L2 recharge time would be excellent. (preferably a desulphater type) I am going to look into this along with a deep cycle battery. By the way Optima used to be great until Johnson Control bought them. Now they are hit and miss. (many only last 2 years) The old one in my diesel tractor is 14 years old but it was an original Optima

7. Do not wait for Nissan to solve your problem. I doubt it will happen.

8. The lithiums were a consideration but they need to be held at a much higher voltage than the leaf will give them so they are out. Show me a lithium that is 4 years old in a leaf and I will reconsider this one.

9. The only other option is to buy a cheap battery and replace it every 2 years.

My Two Cents

PS This is kind of what I am thinking. Wheelchair batteries need to be good. Amazon


VMAX857 AGM Deep Cycle Group U1 Battery Replacement for Interstate DCS-33H, DCS33H 12V 35Ah Wheelchair Battery
by VMAX Wheelchair
Be the first to review this item
Price: $104.99 & FREE Shipping
In Stock.
Ships from and sold by bargainshore.

1-L=7.7" W=5" H=6.1" . Screw in post Terminal. Float Service Life span of 5 to 8 years.
2-Superior custom built Military Grade Alloys. Maintenance free. No dangerous toxic gas release.
3-Sealed Non Spill able Non Hazardous Construction. Approved for air, ground and maritime transportation.
4-Warranty applies only if sold by an Authorized Seller. Amazon Authorized seller: bargainshore.
5-goto http://www.amazon.com/shops/bargainshore" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for VMAXTANKS categorized offers, selection and more savings on package deals for two or more batteries.

daaxix said:

...... I had just jumped my ICE car with the Leaf before our road trip, twice
...

Click to expand...

AHHHHHHH!!!

No, don't DO that!!!!

I don't know the rules in the US, but you might have invalidated the warranty doing that.

These are the two things that could happen. Firstly, if the battery is not ICE-cranking capable it might be a lower discharge battery type that cannot sustain cranking loads without damage.

Secondly, if the on-board inverter is active and you try to pull 1000A through it, anything could happen.

If your car is not charging up the 12V battery properly after cranking an ICE then you might well have damaged it.

If you are absolutely desperate to get an ICE going you can charge up the ICE battery with the EV, but just don't crank when you are doing it. Better still, disconnect the ICE battery and use the EV to charge that now isolated battery up.

Page 6-10 of the manual I have:

LEAF cannot be used as a booster vehicle
because it cannot supply enough
power to start a gasoline engine. However,
a gasoline engine vehicle can be
used to jump start LEAF’s 12-volt
battery.

Click to expand...

donald said:

daaxix said:

...... I had just jumped my ICE car with the Leaf before our road trip, twice
...

Click to expand...

AHHHHHHH!!!

No, don't DO that!!!!

I don't know the rules in the US, but you might have invalidated the warranty doing that.

These are the two things that could happen. Firstly, if the battery is not ICE-cranking capable it might be a lower discharge battery type that cannot sustain cranking loads without damage.

Secondly, if the on-board inverter is active and you try to pull 1000A through it, anything could happen.

If your car is not charging up the 12V battery properly after cranking an ICE then you might well have damaged it.

If you are absolutely desperate to get an ICE going you can charge up the ICE battery with the EV, but just don't crank when you are doing it. Better still, disconnect the ICE battery and use the EV to charge that now isolated battery up.

Page 6-10 of the manual I have:

LEAF cannot be used as a booster vehicle
because it cannot supply enough
power to start a gasoline engine. However,
a gasoline engine vehicle can be
used to jump start LEAF’s 12-volt
battery.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You really should read and study the posts from Ingineer.
See the links I included above.

You are correct that the Nissan manual advises against using the LEAF to start an ICE.
But they likely did that because way too many people would do it wrong.

It can only be done safely and correctly with the LEAF in Ready mode and needs to be done following all the steps Ingineer clearly outlined.
The DC to DC converter is rated for 1.7 kW or about 135 amps.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9578&p=219510&hilit=DC+inverter#p219510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
It is current limited.
Has been used by lots of people to power inverters during loss of grid power and to start ICE vehicles.

Whether Nissan would attempt to void a warranty for doing it is a legal question. I am not an attorney and never give legal advice.

But if done correctly following everything Ingineer outlined the LEAF is a marvelous tool for starting an ICE vehicle with a dead battery. Or even a LEAF with a dead 12 volt battery.

TimLee said:

The DC to DC converter is rated for 1.7 kW or about 135 amps.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9578&p=219510&hilit=DC+inverter#p219510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
It is current limited..

Click to expand...

If it is current limited then it won't make 12V under a 1000A load. The impedance of the load (the starter motor) under cranking is, say, around 900A at 9V, around 0.01 ohm. So at 135A it'd deliver 1.35V.

If you try to draw 900A off a low discharge lead acid battery, the plates will fragment as they are not designed to take such a current load.

You either need a 900A capable generator, and/or a cranking battery.

donald said:

If it is current limited then it won't make 12V under a 1000A load. The impedance of the load (the starter motor) under cranking is, say, around 900A at 9V, around 0.01 ohm. So at 135A it'd deliver 1.35V.

If you try to draw 900A off a low discharge lead acid battery, the plates will fragment as they are not designed to take such a current load.

You either need a 900A capable generator, and/or a cranking battery.

Click to expand...

Correct, it will voltage sag and current limit.

But where are getting the idea that starting an ICE with a weak battery could ever attempt to pull 1000 amps?

I am now considering this Exide Edge AGM battery. $160 with a 4 year free replacement warrenty. Looks like and exact fit however most battery sites are not up to date with the leaf. Fits the Prius. Agm has a much lower self discharge that wet cells.

http://www.amazon.com/Exide-FP-AGM51R-Sealed-Automotive-Battery/dp/B00AAX3KXG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Exide Edge FP-AGM51R Flat Plate AGM Sealed Automotive Battery
by Exide

TimLee said:

But where are getting the idea that starting an ICE with a weak battery could ever attempt to pull 1000 amps?

Click to expand...

Depends on the car of course, but sure what do you say it is?

donald said:

TimLee said:

But where are getting the idea that starting an ICE with a weak battery could ever attempt to pull 1000 amps?

Click to expand...

Depends on the car of course, but sure what do you say it is?

Click to expand...

That is why I asked, I didn't have any good data on it.
I found the following in an online guide to resolving ICE starting problems.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/us1296.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A good starter will normally draw 60 to 150 amps with no load on it, and up to 200 amps or more while cranking the engine. The no load amp draw depends on the rating of the starter while the cranking amp draw depends on the displacement and compression of the engine. Always refer to the OEM specs for the exact amp values. Some "high torque" GM starters, for example, may have a no load draw of up to 250 amps. Toyota starters on four-cylinder engines typically draw 130 to 150 amps, and up to 175 amps on six-cylinder engines.
An unusually high current draw and low free turning speed or cranking speed typically indicates a shorted armature, grounded armature or field coils, or excessive friction within the starter itself (dirty, worn or binding bearings or bushings, a bent armature shaft or contact between the armature and field coils). The magnets in permanent magnet starters can sometimes break or separate from the housing and drag against the armature.
A starter that does not turn at all and draws a high current may have a ground in the terminal or field coils, or a frozen armature. On the other hand, the start may be fine but can't crank the engine because the engine is seized or hydrolocked. So before you condemn the starter, try turning the engine over by hand. Won't budge? Then the engine is probably locked up.

Click to expand...

I think those values are more typical.
I think the highest currents would be the starter locked rotor current value, but I did not find a good source for those.
But probably under 300 amps.

I guess there is some possibility that the bad battery on the ICE might have developed a complete short. But that is pretty unlikely, they sometimes short individual cells, but not usually the overall battery.

Jump starting an ICE is an activity that does present risks. Are way too many injuries every year when people do it wrong.
But carefully following Ingineer's carefully outlined instructions using a LEAF in Ready mode there is a lot less risk than many other approaches.

TimLee said:

I guess there is some possibility that the bad battery on the ICE might have developed a complete short. But that is pretty unlikely, they sometimes short individual cells, but not usually the overall battery.

Click to expand...

Even if there are no shorted cells in the dead battery, the highest currents will occur if that battery has been discharged all the way down to 0V. In that case, it will look like a direct short initially. Based on that possibility, I would likely decline to start an ICE with no signs of life.

Otherwise, it the other vehicle is clicking or some such when you try to start it, then I have no qualms about starting an ICE from the LEAF with it in READY mode, following Ingineer's connection instructions.

That said, it is interesting that the LEAF battery does not have any information printed on it regarding its current capabilities. Donald may be correct: it may be quite low.

69800 said:

I am now considering this Exide Edge AGM battery. $160 with a 4 year free replacement warrenty. Looks like and exact fit however most battery sites are not up to date with the leaf. Fits the Prius. Agm has a much lower self discharge that wet cells.

http://www.amazon.com/Exide-FP-AGM51R-Sealed-Automotive-Battery/dp/B00AAX3KXG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Exide Edge FP-AGM51R Flat Plate AGM Sealed Automotive Battery
by Exide

Click to expand...

Thanks for that recommendation! That looks like a nice battery! I have never put 2-and-2 together to see that the LEAF battery is really just a 51R, which is the same thing we have in our Honda Civic Hybrid. It appears to be available for $152 shipped from a vendor other than Amazon.

I think I would have very little concern jump-starting other vehicles after replacing the OEM battery with this one.

I currently need a battery for another vehicle right now. I may consider one like this.

Thanks again!

I've had my 2013 S for almost a year and a half. Intermittent vampire drain issue the whole time. Disconnecting the battery will reset it for a while, up to 2 months sometimes, then it returns. Will drain at almost an amp. I've given up on it. Dealer replaced the battery once, no joy. They want to see it again but it's 80 miles one way. I purchased a DC clamp meter to look for the culprit. Appears to be in the brake servo/master cylinder area, as I see the same draw there with my clamp meter as I see at the battery. The car has to be on a battery tender at all times when not being driven. The last time I reset it the drain returned in 2 days so I just gave up.

The public charging infrastructure remains non-existent over here, not a single station added since I leased my Leaf. Constant range anxiety, and I can't take a trip anywhere conveniently. Probably gonna terminate my lease a few months early and look for a used Volt, or as a last resort, a Prius.

voganni said:

I've had my 2013 S for almost a year and a half. Intermittent vampire drain issue the whole time. Disconnecting the battery will reset it for a while, up to 2 months sometimes, then it returns. Will drain at almost an amp. I've given up on it. Dealer replaced the battery once, no joy. They want to see it again but it's 80 miles one way. I purchased a DC clamp meter to look for the culprit. Appears to be in the brake servo/master cylinder area, as I see the same draw there with my clamp meter as I see at the battery. The car has to be on a battery tender at all times when not being driven. The last time I reset it the drain returned in 2 days so I just gave up.

The public charging infrastructure remains non-existent over here, not a single station added since I leased my Leaf. Constant range anxiety, and I can't take a trip anywhere conveniently. Probably gonna terminate my lease a few months early and look for a used Volt, or as a last resort, a Prius.

Click to expand...

Kettle Falls, WA, correct?
100 miles north northwest of Spokane, about 15 miles south of Canadian border?
Is your closest dealer in Spokane?
Sorry about your neverending 12 volt battery problem.

By the way I have read that If you buy an AGM battery online you need to buy from a real battery dealer or your replacement warranty may not work. Several amazon buyers have stated this. I will pay a little extra for my Exide AGM from a dealer and NOT use amazon for this.

I run one of these (link below) in my Subaru...a LI Ion 12V battery that weighs just 2lbs. Stuck the 10lb AGM battery (stock Leaf battery weighs 26lbs) in my Leaf the other day.

Now even though the Battery Pack tops off the 12V battery, and you'd think using a smaller 12V would lessen range as a result, maybe the loss of 16lbs off the car will "buy" some of that range back. That is my thought at least. When my 12V AGM goes out I'll but another Li Ion 12V for the Leaf. Here's the link to the Li Ion battery on Amazon for $99! I run a couple smaller versions of this one in both my Honda scooters for weight savings.

http://www.amazon.com/YTZ12S-Z12S-Lithium-Sealed-Battery/dp/B00DCXEY7C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=02QT1Z4M1HS4GNHA7YJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

pointlomadave said:

Now even though the Battery Pack tops off the 12V battery, and you'd think using a smaller 12V would lessen range as a result,

Click to expand...

Why would you think that a lower capacity 12v battery would impact the range?

pointlomadave said:

I run one of these (link below) in my Subaru...a LI Ion 12V battery that weighs just 2lbs. Stuck the 10lb AGM battery (stock Leaf battery weighs 26lbs) in my Leaf the other day.

Now even though the Battery Pack tops off the 12V battery, and you'd think using a smaller 12V would lessen range as a result, maybe the loss of 16lbs off the car will "buy" some of that range back. That is my thought at least. When my 12V AGM goes out I'll but another Li Ion 12V for the Leaf. Here's the link to the Li Ion battery on Amazon for $99! I run a couple smaller versions of this one in both my Honda scooters for weight savings.

http://www.amazon.com/YTZ12S-Z12S-Lithium-Sealed-Battery/dp/B00DCXEY7C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=02QT1Z4M1HS4GNHA7YJA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Wow, that is one HUGE battery

"Product Dimensions 150 x 87.1 x 92.9 inches"

Ok, so millimeters? Quite small. Between that, the weight, and the low-low price I'm thinking the capacity must be pretty small. Another reason to suspect small capacity is that nowhere do they mention the amp-hour rating, only CCA which is meaningless for LEAF application. Amp-hours is important because the car does draw power continuously. Regardless of the battery chemistry it will run flat if the dark current consumes the available capacity. This battery may serve well for motorcycle starting but unless you can find an amp-hour rating I'd worry that it might go dead in a matter of days in a parked LEAF. If you never go more than a couple of days without driving it may do fine.

Wasn't sure which thread to post in...

Count me in the dead 12 volt camp now. Let's just hope it doesn't happen to me every 2 weeks, or even more often. I've been reading about the supposedly crappy 12 volt charging algorithm for awhile.

My leased '13 Leaf SV w/both packages never had a dead 12 volt. But then again, I never monitored it nor did I ever put it on any charger or tender. I also didn't have Leaf Spy nor any OBD2 BT dongle until the last few weeks I had the car. The dongle I bought was http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009F4JHHO (says ELM 327 in orange on the top, ASIN B009F4JHHO) and I'm now using it w/my owned Leaf.

My owned '13 Leaf SV w/premium package (only) I bought used in mid-July 2015 and it's been fine, until today. More recently, I decided to sometimes on weekends charge up the 12 volt with my Tecmate Optimate 4 (http://tecmate.com/products/OptiMate4dp/) which I use to maintain and charge my Prius' tiny 12 volt. I think I last charged the 12 volt in my owned Leaf a week or two ago (max two weeks).

This morning, I couldn't get my Leaf into READY mode no matter how hard I tried. It'd basically go into ON or keep telling me to press the brake (which I was). I noticed Leaf Spy w/*uncalibrated* dongle was reading low 9.x volts! I turned off the car and measured using a multimeter across the terminals about mid-10 volts.

I have no idea if the dongle caused the drain or if there's something Leaf Spy does that can cause the car to stay in/get stuck in a state where it drains the 12 volt/prevents some module from going to sleep. I don't recall if Leaf Spy was running on my phone overnight. I normally don't have sufficient BT range between my garage and where my Android phone usually is.

I was already late to meet w/someone and had no 12 volt jump pack so I had to take my Prius. Sigh.... I was going to give the person I was meeting a Leaf demo.

voganni said:

I purchased a DC clamp meter to look for the culprit

Click to expand...

Which one did you get? Can anyone recommend an inexpensive one?

Some folks in other threads have mentioned data loggers. Anyone have an inexpensive one they can recommend?

Since I'm the second owner of the Leaf, I have no idea if this Leaf had trouble like this before nor whether its 12 volt is in bad shape. I did add distilled water when I first took possession as it looked a little low. I added a bit more today, as well.

Car's almost never plugged in overnight. It's usually only charged at work and w/the occasional use of free public L2. I last charged it on Saturday at free public L2 charging for maybe an hour. Sunday morning is when I got the unpleasant surprise.

I bought a jump starter pack and I guess I'll have to carry it around all the time, just in case. And, I'll be charging my 12 volt more often now.

It seems goofy that the car won't automatically start charging the 12 volt from the HV battery if it gets below a certain voltage.

Cwerdna,

If you leave Leaf Spy running on your phone and the ELM unit plugged in to the OBDII port, I think the app keeps asking for information so it keeps the Leaf's modules from going dormant. I have left my 2011 and 2015 parked for as long as 3 weeks and never had a problem except the one time I left the ELM unit plugged in and the app running on the phone which I left laying on the seat. I came back to a dead car and dead phone after only 6 days. I doubt that the ELM unit and app would drain the battery that low just overnight, but maybe the battery was not well charged due to a short traction battery charging session and limited driving. I carry a lithium booster pack (not much bigger than a laptop battery) and I used it a couple of times to start the V8 in my SUV at work when it's battery was failing.

Gerry