Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

XeonPony said:

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Standard 40 amp 240 is fine in the home, time is not an issue here, it is the on road L2, here in Canada most every one is 70 to 90 amps.

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Adding to the fact I stated that the smallest L2 in Canada universally are no less then 70AMp (Average being 80 to 90A) (I'd wager it is true in the states as well) the 12Kw capable charger is perfectly logical in preceding a larger battery.

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You appear to be confusing DCQC CHAdeMO with L2.

You are correct that higher kWh battery vehicles will need faster charging.
The Tesla S has that, both option of second on board charger and very fast supercharging.

But if Nissan builds a 48 kWh vehicle, unlikely the on board charger will be upgraded past 10 kW.
Most homes will not support more than that.

For higher than that they will depend on DCQC CHAdeMO which currently goes to 50 kW, about 120 amps.
And a higher capability DCQC CHAdeMO is proposed.

TimLee said:

XeonPony said:

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Standard 40 amp 240 is fine in the home, time is not an issue here, it is the on road L2, here in Canada most every one is 70 to 90 amps.

...
Adding to the fact I stated that the smallest L2 in Canada universally are no less then 70AMp (Average being 80 to 90A) (I'd wager it is true in the states as well) the 12Kw capable charger is perfectly logical in preceding a larger battery.

Click to expand...

You appear to be confusing DCQC CHAdeMO with L2.

You are correct that higher kWh battery vehicles will need faster charging.
The Tesla S has that, both option of second on board charger and very fast supercharging.

But if Nissan builds a 48 kWh vehicle, unlikely the on board charger will be upgraded past 10 kW.
Most homes will not support more than that.

For higher than that they will depend on DCQC CHAdeMO which currently goes to 50 kW, about 120 amps.
And a higher capability DCQC CHAdeMO is proposed.

Click to expand...

No I am not confusing any thing, you how ever seem to be. for the sake of goats I gave you voltages e

again HOMES DO NOT NEED TO, I spelled this out as well!!!!!! The point is on-the-road usability, this is where speed is king, right now for a long drive I need to plug into an L2 mid way for well over 3h, longer is best to fully recharge with a 12kw charger would be a meer 1.5 or less if not going as far. This for the average person doing a quick top off will be even more useful, now for a coffe n snack they have significantly more usable range. Basically no matter what it is all win for us and Nissan.

Homes, standard 40amp 240 volt evse (Charger can be ten gigawatts but it will draw what the evse says it can!)

L2 in Canada is all ready min 70 amps 90Amp average at 240V (On-the-road values)

(V*A=WATTS 240V*90A=21.6KW) Hmmm seems to me just a tad over the needed capacity there! So with a 12Kw charger we'd have 9.6Kw of head room on an average L2 in Canada! (They built them for the teslas higher charge rate abilities and some future proofing!) the U.S. I'd assume they'd manage the same 90Amp standard!

Fast chargers would be glorious! had we any actually installed in the rest of Canada (They are either in Vancouver or Quebec, not much any where ells of use for the bulk of ev drivers out here)

So again the cheapest solution for Nissan to add a huge factor of convenience and usability would be to put in place a 12Kw charger, or hell even a 10! as every L2 charger in Canada all ready exceeds the needs by 9.6KW!! on average!

As you all ready agree with bigger battery we need a bigger charger we are on same page there.

You are errantly connecting battery charger with Ampacity, I think you are geting hung up here, the evse tells it what it can draw, so the home can be 1amp evse if you wanted or a 200Amp (48Kw) mind you nothing ells in the house can be on!! (Average new home in Canada is 200Amp 240V service)

So there is all ready this flexibility in the system, so Nissan will be wise to take advantage of it, and we will gain tons!

XeonPony said:

... L2 in Canada is all ready min 70 amps 90Amp average at 240V (On-the-road values)
...

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Please clarify.
Maybe the power supply and breakers have been set up to support 70 to 90 amps?
But that has not been a common practice in the US J1772 commercial installations.
Most have been 40 amp and the EVSE is only rated for 30 amps.

There have been very few EVSE available that go beyond 32 amps.
Tony Williams company is now producing some at high amps.
Mentioned in this topic:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=19096&start=0#p411320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But the standard only goes to 80 amps.
And some questions whether the standard is suitable for that.

What is the amp rating of the Canada EVSEs?

90 average some odd bals 70 to 80 amps.

for on road units

average in home is 40amp.

Sun country is the usual suplier of the evse, and so far from bc to sask, all have been 90Amp rated.

^ Interesting. Yes, faster L2 charger would be great (I have the 3.8 KW so I know the pain, but it's still much faster than L1). I would suggest that Nissan will keep the Chademo and L2 plug, they have to since they have supported so many Chademo installations (even if we don't think there enough in N.A. as opposed to Japan). A faster ability to L2 charge would certainly help in those locations where Chademo is not available. From my personal experience, 48 KW Chademo and 3.8 KW L2 for that matter are both too fast and not fast enough. Yes, that's what I said. When traveling through multiple charge events, some stops need more time than 20 min (eating, drinking, sleeping, restroom) and other stops are just too long (especially with the 20 KWH 2011 Leaf battery). With a larger battery, the number of stops gets cut in half, so perhaps those boring stops will be eliminated (who needs another coffee, doughnut, or meal when you just had one 50 miles back?). At times I would do a quick 5 min DCQC, then switch over to L2 and then go to the restaurant. With faster L2 (say 10-15 KW), yes I might just plug in to L2 and skip the DCQC all together (especially for a longer 2 hr lunch, golf, hike, etc.). The 3.8 KW L2 would be glacially slow when traveling with a 48 KWH Leaf, even for overnight sleeping (but it is too fast for the 20 KWH 2011 Leaf). Yes, I know it's a strange concept, but there I've said it: There both too fast and too slow.

However, what I really wanted to say is the next gen Leaf should have CSS (Frankenplug) L2/DC plug included IN ADDITION to the Chademo. This would allow the Leaf to charge at all future stations (except Tesla) whether they are Chademo, CSS, or a combination (which seems to be what most public installations will be going forward). Yes, there aren't a huge number of CSS only stations, but I can see certain dealerships and community only installing these.

XeonPony said:

90 average some odd bals 70 to 80 amps.

for on road units

average in home is 40amp.

Sun country is the usual suplier of the evse, and so far from bc to sask, all have been 90Amp rated.

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Thanks for the information.

I think where some of my confusion came from is you are using breaker rating, which has become the typical model naming convention.

A lot of the Sun Country installations are UCH-90, 90 amp breaker feed, 72 amp to the vehicle, 17.2 kW.

Some are UCH-60, 60 amp breaker, 48 amp to vehicle, 11.5 kW. A few 30 or 32 amp to the vehicle installations which is most of what is installed in US.

But they do have a UCH-100, 100 amp breaker, 80 amps to the vehicle (maximum of the J1772 standard), 19.2 kW that can charge a Tesla S with dual on board chargers at the fastest J1772 rate.

Would be nice if LEAF Gen 2 had that, but seems doubtful.

I sure hope they put thermal protection on both the EVSE and the vehicle. Doing such current without it seems like a significant deficiency.

We do not have public EVSEs in the USA that are 12kw and over 6kw is very rare. Not to mention the cost of a 9kw or 12kw charger is very expensive at retail car pricing nor would they build that option for a small market like Canada. I would highly doubt they would ever offer 12Kw without a steep premium because of the relative NRE and 9kw would be an option likely. The 9.6kw charger on the RAV is only there as it was on the Tesla drive and it was HIGHLY subsidized. If anything the points seem moot since a pack this size in a LEAF is likely a way out.

dam that sucks for U.S. drivers! most the L2 EVSE's where set up to service all J1772 socket electric vehicles with some future proofing.

The 90Amp figure is the delivered current not breaker fyi, most of those are on the high way and in cities, going through plug share seems most peripheries and such are the more common 25-40 amp range (haven't come across any that small personally)

I just wish these cars could use a fraction of the available current. Nissan will not be helping their sales out with out facilitating faster charging like tesla has, yes it is expensive so what? So is a car so is gas so is a quality cup of coffe.

small price to pay to have a vehicle that can behave a bit closer to a gas vehicle in terms of fuelling up! and more so criticle if going to a larger battery! and there are ways they can integrate a all ready made design like the bursa charger in parallel to their main inverter/charger system via can bus.

It is easily achieved if they chose to, and I am sure most sane and rational people would be happy to have the higher speed even if the over all price was up a bit.

The key word is yet far as 6 to 21Kw EVSE's in the U.S. and Canada is not going to be a small market for long as here there has been a ton of energy going to get EV infastructure don, not as good as the U.S has don on fast chargers but the L2s are going up fast and feriously.

Tesla nailed it by making their charging system capable of fast effective charging with out needing a dcqc, Nissan has a sound car, they just need to take a clue from tesla and do some thing about charge rates.

Simply put for wide range of acceptance they need to do it, even more so with larger battery.

XeonPony said:

The 90Amp figure is the delivered current not breaker fyi

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That's not possible, J1772 spec is 80A delivered, max. Typical Sun Country EVSEs are either 72A or 80A on a 90A or 100A breaker respectively at either 208VAC or 240VAC depending on what the site has available. The 80A model is the SCH-100 and the 72A model is the SCH-90.

http://suncountryhighway.com/Content/Docs/SCH-100_brochure_v1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But anyway, that's all picking nits at this point. I think that most would agree that higher current AC charging would be valuable, especially considering how much simpler L2 stations are than DCQC stations.

Ok guess the tech was off that was installing it by 10 amps, acceptable in my books. Even at 80A is significant boost in charging speeds, but for safety factor limit to 70 Amps. Still plenty of reserve for a 12Kw charger.

More people need to point this out to nissan, not like they run out of space with the empty rear cavity, once mine is fully paid off (Providing they fix the damned heater) I'd like to further investigate the viability of the bursa mod they did with the older leaf's or even salvaging a charger from a wrecked 2012, as even an additional 3.x Kw would be a massive improvement in the current 24KWh pack.

I love the idea of a 48KWh Leaf, but I won't touch it with a 500yard pole if they do not increase the charger size!

I suggest that Nissan, in addition to the Chademo port, add a CCS combo L2/DCQC port (instead of just the standard J1772 L2) to the next Leaf version. That way, the new Leaf will be able to charge with a standard J1772 L2 and at DCQC chargers (both standards, CSS combo and Chademo). From the images below, it sure looks like there is room in front for the current J1772 L2 and Chademo, so why not convert the current J1772 L2 into the CSS combo plug? Is this possible? I have no idea, but with the proper programming, why not? Think about it, with a 48 KWh battery and the possibility of charging at 50 KW with either CSS combo or Chademo, the Leaf would be able to access charging at almost every station in the country (except Tesla). I could even travel from Pasco to Seattle, with a 1-hr meal in Ellensburg or Wenatchee (which I typically plan for anyway with my gasser). In such a case, my typical 250 mi trip would take the same amount of time as the gasser, with a much better EV experience. Go Nissan! Now is your chance to wow all of us.

Reddy said:

I suggest that Nissan, in addition to the Chademo port, add a CCS L2/DCQC port (instead of just the standard J1772 L2) to the next Leaf version.

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One virtue of having only one DCQC-capable inlet connector is that its contacts are kept safely hidden whenever a cord is mated into it. If you provided two connectors with DCQC capability, there'd have to be another rather expensive high-voltage relay to select between them.

A FAR better use for such a relay would be to provide the ability to connect either the motor terminals or the AC powerline to an improved-capability power conversion module that could then either charge the battery from the AC line or regenerated AC from the motor, or generate AC signals to either power the motor or drive out into the AC line.

Levenkay said:

Reddy said:

I suggest that Nissan, in addition to the Chademo port, add a CCS L2/DCQC port (instead of just the standard J1772 L2) to the next Leaf version.

Click to expand...

One virtue of having only one DCQC-capable inlet connector is that its contacts are kept safely hidden whenever a cord is mated into it. If you provided two connectors with DCQC capability, there'd have to be another rather expensive high-voltage relay to select between them.

A FAR better use for such a relay would be to provide the ability to connect either the motor terminals or the AC powerline to an improved-capability power conversion module that could then either charge the battery from the AC line or regenerated AC from the motor, or generate AC signals to either power the motor or drive out into the AC line.

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Never underestimate the power of mechanical solutions as well. Perhaps they could design a connector that combines CCS and CHAdeMO, but locks out the CHAdeMO when the CCS is opened, and vice-versa.

XeonPony said:

I love the idea of a 48KWh Leaf, but I won't touch it with a 500yard pole if they do not increase the charger size!

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I'd be surprised to see a SL or SV level 48kWh leaf with anything less than a 9.6KW charger. That'd be 45a @ 208v or 40a @ 240v. Plenty fast enough for home and destination charging. Even if they wimp out and limit it to 40a @ 208 you'd get 8.3KW charging on the road.

I would expect the cheaper S trim would have the old 6.6kW / 6.0kW charger left over from the old configs and no fast charging port included (pay extra for an optional one or force you to step up to the SV). Heck maybe the S trim sticks you with the old 24kWh pack too.

I can't see any scenario where they pair the old 3.8kW / 3.3KW charger with the 48kWh battery.

Keep in mind the Jamp JR evse options and you'll have an idea what you can pair up with a likely Gen 2 Leaf

JAMP JR

16 amps (3.8kW) Model 16-20 w/NEMA L6-20P
24 amps (5.8kW) Model 24-30 w/NEMA L6-30P
32 amps (7.7kW) Model 32-40 w/NEMA 14-50P
40 amps (9.6kW) Model 40-50 w/NEMA 14-50P

You already need a 30a EVSE at home to do the 27.5a the 6.x KW charger does on the old leaf. It only makes sense they'll step it up and make use of most or all of the 40a you can get from a 14-50 socket.

30 amps should be plenty. Anyone who isn't home for at least six hours a night is probably out doing something they shouldn't be and wouldn't be interested in an EV anyway.

LTLFTcomposite said:

30 amps should be plenty. Anyone who isn't home for at least six hours a night is probably out doing something they shouldn't be and wouldn't be interested in an EV anyway.

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48kWh battery would give you more range than a Model S 40kWh* which means road trips. You'd want to be able to charge to full overnight and want to charge as fast as possible on L2 anywhere you can't find a L3 option.

Heaven forbid you aren't there a full 7.x hours to charge on a hotel charger with only 30a @ 208v giving you 6.2KW. An extra 10 amps shaves 2 hours off the full charge time which might matter on a family trip where you have to beat traffic, meet others at a specific time, or make a start time at a destination event (movie, tour, boat launch, etcetera).

Besides when you get into the price range the 48kWh battery pushes you into people get super demanding about convenience even if it isn't purely logical to do so.

*While rare the Model S40 is good for 140-160 miles at worse efficiency than a Leaf. (EPA rated for 139 miles and no supercharging).

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33612&id=34699" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

XeonPony said:

90 average some odd bals 70 to 80 amps.

for on road units

average in home is 40amp.

Sun country is the usual suplier of the evse, and so far from bc to sask, all have been 90Amp rated.

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The charge stations that Sun Country Highways is using are manufactured in California by Clipper Creek.

All their models refer to the CIRCUIT BREAKER SIZE, not the amps supplied to your car. That value is 80% of the circuit breaker size. We use both values in our model designations for our charge stations:

JAMP JR
Model 16-20 (16 amps to your car, on a 20 amp circuit)
Model 24-30
Model 32-40
Model 40-50

JAMP SR
Model 48-60
Model 56-70
Model 64-80
Model 72-90
Model 80-100

The J1772 (Tyoe 1 in Europe) standard for the world is between 6 and 30 amps, except the USA / Canada, which is 6 to 80 amps maximum (courtesy of Tesla's petition to SAE).

hen most are at their max rated as I said befor, here we wanted future proofing so they just installed the largest they could, so at worst 70A dilivered at average of 240v, some at 208.

As some one with a great amount of electrical experiance I do know the difference between breaker and suplied, in the case of the 90Amps I took the instalers word for it, but then was pointed out he was in error, he should have stated 90A breaker at 80 Suply to the vehicle, I can forgive him on his error.

point was and still is right this second Nissan can really gain by puting in a larger charger now, and then when the 48KwH Version comes to play they will have gained more market share and credibility as a practical functional car!

XeonPony said:

...he should have stated 90A breaker at 80 Suply to the vehicle...

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No.
90 amp breaker, 72 amps to the vehicle.