CHAdeMO-to-Tesla adapter?

Zythryn said:

...That I understand. I just wasn't sure that Ed was clear on that...

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I think my previous post reporting the $1,900 charge was clear.

quote="Zythryn"...Most Tesla owners won't need to pay that.

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What you don't seem to be "clear on" is that, as I understand it, every Tesla owner who wants to use public DC chargers now needs to pay $1,900 for the software update to use public DC, plus another $450 for the adapter or $2,500 (as option or embedded in a more expensive option package) to use public and Tesla DC, which is "free"...at least until Tesla files for bankruptcy, plus another $450 for the adapter.

It certainly looks to me like Tesla is over-charging for the software update, to discourage Tesla owners from opting out of its free supercharger pyramid scheme.

I expect many Tesla owners have other options and do not plan to regularly use their BEV for long trips, and might prefer just to pay to use the public DC infrastructure when they need it, if Tesla charged a reasonable price, rather than $1,900 for the update (plus another $450 for the adapter) for that capability.

Of course, these Tesla drivers would then be contributors (by regularly paying for, and depending on) the public DC infrastructure, rather than parasites on the public infrastructure, which Tesla seems to prefer.

edatoakrun said:

What you don't seem to be "clear on" is that, as I understand it, every Tesla owner who wants to use public DC chargers now needs to pay $1,900 for the software update to use public DC, plus another $450 for the adapter or $2,500 (as option or embedded in a more expensive option package) to use public and Tesla DC, which is "free"...at least until Tesla files for bankruptcy, plus another $450 for the adapter.

It certainly looks to me like Tesla is over-charging for the software update, to discourage Tesla owners from opting out of its free supercharger pyramid scheme.

I expect many Tesla owners have other options and do not plan to regularly use their BEV for long trips, and might prefer just to pay to use the public DC infrastructure when they need it, if Tesla charged a reasonable price, rather than $1,900 for the update (plus another $450 for the adapter) for that capability.

Of course, these Tesla drivers would then be contributors (by regularly paying for, and depending on) the public DC infrastructure, rather than parasites on the public infrastructure, which Tesla seems to prefer.

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You are just wording it oddly by putting the emphasis on the software update.
Most Tesla owners alread have the SC access, and thus, need nothing other than the adapter.
Leaf owners without the QC port can't use it either.

DC changing requires bypassing the onboard chargers.
Leaf does this with an extra port, Tesla builds the capability with every car, and thus does it with software.

A Tesla using a CHAdeMO fast charger is no more a parasite than a Leaf owner.

I've had an 85 kWh Model S for just shy of two years, and purchased the Chademo adapter. The adapter cost $450, and it works great. I think the service center did put some updated software on my car for the Chademo adapter AFTER I had the adapter and was already using it. No charge for that software update, whatever it was for.

So I think most owners will just have to pay the $450 for the Chademo adapter and will be good to go. There may be some 60 kWh cars that never paid for Supercharging, and those would have to pay the additional fees to use the Chademo adapter. But if they never bought Supecharging, I'd guess that they probably also wouldn't purchase the necessary software for the Chademo adapter either...

DC fast charging is where's its at, so that will definitely be a part of any EV I buy in the future....

Randy said:

I've had an 85 kWh Model S for just shy of two years, and purchased the Chademo adapter. The adapter cost $450, and it works great...

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Thanks for the information, great to hear first hand information!

The Tesla CHAdeMO adapter is now out and a friend has used his (cost $450) . They seem to work fine. I don't think the Tesla driver will hog the ports and go for a full charge. They just use enough to get to a Tesla Super Charger that is twice as fast and free.

Randy is correct. Though I have noticed that most of the CHAdeMO chargers I have come across only supply 50 amps. I did find one that provides full 125 amp charging.

edatoakrun said:

...Tesla DC, which is "free"...at least until Tesla files for bankruptcy,

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Does your dislike for Tesla know no bounds? You just crack me up with comments like this. $450 for a ChaDeMo inlet, a Tesla plug, and a mini computer for protocol conversion seems reasonable. The other cost is for the DC hardware enable in the vehicle which gives Supercharger access. That cost is to pay for the buildout of the charging network and some of the expected cost of the electricity you will consume over the life of the vehicle with access to that charging network. There is not any reason for Tesla to provide an option for ChaDeMo charging without Supercharger access. There just is not sufficient demand from the handful of cars that do not have SC access to warrant the different software package needed to do it.

palmermd said:

...There is not any reason for Tesla to provide an option for ChaDeMo charging without Supercharger access. There just is not sufficient demand from the handful of cars that do not have SC access to warrant the different software package needed to do it.

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Moot point.

With the discontinuation of the 60 S, Tesla will not sell you any car without charging you in advance for use of its proprietary DC network.

Enjoy your lifetime free charging.

Maybe a national fast-food chain will follow Tesla's lead, put restaurants at the supercharger locations, and offer every Tesla owner a lifetime of Free Lunch, for a nominal one-time (four-figure) payment...in advance.

edatoakrun said:

palmermd said:

...There is not any reason for Tesla to provide an option for ChaDeMo charging without Supercharger access. There just is not sufficient demand from the handful of cars that do not have SC access to warrant the different software package needed to do it.

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Moot point.

With the discontinuation of the 60 S, Tesla will not sell you any car without charging you in advance for use of its proprietary DC network.

Enjoy your lifetime free charging.

Maybe a national fast-food chain will follow Tesla's lead, put restaurants at the supercharger locations, and offer every Tesla owner a lifetime of Free Lunch, for a nominal one-time (four-figure) payment...in advance.

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I'm not sure why you are so upset with the prepaid format that Tesla is using on the Supercharger network. Ok, maybe they should not call it free charging, but prepaid charging. I still don't know why this causes such angst. It is simply a business model and there are plenty of other businesses that use the prepaid format. Are you that upset at holiday gift cards? People buy millions of dollars of these cards and a very large percentage never get used and the company just pockets the unspent money...that is something that should probably ruffle your feathers, not prepaid supercharging for a Tesla.

edatoakrun...Maybe a national fast-food chain will follow Tesla's lead, put restaurants at the supercharger locations, and offer every Tesla owner a lifetime of Free Lunch, for a nominal one-time (four-figure) payment...in advance.

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="palmermd"...Ok, maybe they should not call it free charging, but prepaid charging. I still don't know why this causes such angst. It is simply a business model and there are plenty of other businesses that use the prepaid format.

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Do you actually believe TSLA expects the $ amount it now bundles into every vehicle sales price, to cover the costs of building and maintaining its DC charge network, and deliver unlimited kWh "forever"?

="palmermd"...Are you that upset at holiday gift cards? People buy millions of dollars of these cards...

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Where can I buy one of these gift cards I can use to make unlimited purchases "forever"?

Is that something I can order directly from Santa Claus?

edatoakrun said:

Are you really naïve enough to think TSLA expects the $ amount it now bundles into every vehicle sales price, to cover the costs of building and maintaining its DC charge network, and deliver unlimited kWh "forever"?

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The current cars are paying for the charge stations...after the network is built out, the next car sales will pay for the solar and battery pack additions to the stations. Yes, sales of the Model S will pay for the build-out of the network and in return they will get charging for life. I don't believe that Model 3 will have the same offer. I expect that they will be charging for Model 3 owners to use the superchargers. $100k car gets prepaid charging, $50k car gets to pay for the energy consumed. Tesla has not stated any of this but this is just my own view of what they are doing and I think it makes perfect sense. More sense than thinking that Nissan will build out a ChaDeMo network without charging extra for the Leaf to pay for all this infrastructure (might as well ask Santa to build out the network). There is just not any return on investment for putting in ChaDeMo right now since there will not be enough use to pay for the installation. This is why Tesla is charging the one group who is willing to pay for the infrastructure, and that is people who can afford a $100k car.

Ya never know ... the lame companies that weren't wise enough to promote their plugin's - and thus have to pay a ton of dough to TESLA for their ZEV/carb credits ... maybe TESLA will use that money to build maintain their network. I'd LOVE to know how much they rake in on that.
.

dgpcolorado said:

^Thanks for that. An acceleration of 1.2 G is a lot for a car!

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BAAHHH !!! 'taint nothin'.

A funny car (consuming over 20 gallons on a 1/4 mile run) can pull over 4g's.

.

hill said:

BAAHHH !!! 'taint nothin'.

A funny car (consuming over 20 gallons on a 1/4 mile run) can pull over 4g's.

.

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That's getting into rocket sled territory; I had no idea they could get anywhere near that high with just tire traction on the ground.

I tended to grey out over 4Gs pulling out of spins in a sailplane but that was with an upright seating position. A reclined seating position can improve that a lot. I presume that horizontal acceleration in a car would be much the same as a reclined seating position in an aircraft.

palmermd said:

The current cars are paying for the charge stations...after the network is built out, the next car sales will pay for the solar and battery pack additions to the stations. Yes, sales of the Model S will pay for the build-out of the network and in return they will get charging for life. I don't believe that Model 3 will have the same offer. I expect that they will be charging for Model 3 owners to use the superchargers. $100k car gets prepaid charging, $50k car gets to pay for the energy consumed...

Tesla is charging the one group who is willing to pay for the infrastructure, and that is people who can afford a $100k car.

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See reply at:

Business model of TSLA "free...forever" charge network

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19617&p=419980#p419980" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edatoakrun said:

Do you actually believe TSLA expects the $ amount it now bundles into every vehicle sales price, to cover the costs of building and maintaining its DC charge network, and deliver unlimited kWh "forever"?

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First of all, it's not "forever", it's for the lifetime of the car. So yes, I believe it's possible.

$2k for electricity at $0.12/kWh is 16,667 kWh. Even at 3 miles/kWh, that would drive a Model S 50k miles. If the life of the car is 200k miles, that's 25% of the miles coming from supercharging. I suspect it will be closer to 10% as a fleet average. In which case you are talking about a 500k mile life which is long for any car.

As mentioned, Tesla is planning on installing solar panels at many/most of their sites. Solar is already, in 2015, cheaper than grid electricity. Thus the solar power can drive a Model S even farther than 50k miles.

At the same time, I am also skeptical of whether the Model III will have unlimited prepaid access to the supercharger network. Personally I wouldn't mind paying for the electricity I use, in addition to a smaller access fee. Say $500 (1-time activation fee) + $0.25/kWh for usage. I never heard/read Musk claiming that all Teslas ever made would have lifetime access, only that all Model S' would.

Superchargers are not just charging stations, they are marketing. They are the reason I have a Leaf now and aspire to own a Tesla when my lease is complete. I saw the ones up in Glenwood Springs and got curious about what they were and what they did. Got educated and bought an electric car.

They are also the reason that even if Nissan/VW/Mitsubishi come up with a 200+ mile car in the next few years, many will still buy Tesla. You can potentially buy the range, but you can't buy access to the supercharger network without the Tesla. I want to be able to drive to LA from here all electric. No other EV offering is going to allow that to happen.

I do agree that a $2000 option does not equal forever charging, but that's because calling SC access a $2000 option was a bad idea on T's part and why they have backed off from that. It's part of the car and part of the brand now like it always should have been and that's why it will be there "forever."

AlanSqB said:

Superchargers are not just charging stations, they are marketing. They are the reason I have a Leaf now and aspire to own a Tesla when my lease is complete.

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here here

...They are also the reason that even if Nissan/VW/Mitsubishi come up with a 200+ mile car in the next few years, many will still buy Tesla. You can potentially buy the range, but you can't buy access to the supercharger network without the Tesla.

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yup. look at the Bolt versus Model 3 right now:
- similar price tag
- similar range
- bolt will ship at least 1 year before model 3
- model 3 will have access to superchargers and chademo (via adapter plug)
- bolt has L2 and SAE Combo. period.

i don't know about anyone else, but in the Boston MA region there are plenty* of chademo and superchargers but only 2-3 SAE Combo chargers. Chevy has publicly stated that they aren't interested in investing in DCFC infrastructure at all, so early bolt drivers will have very little hope of finding a fast charger.

that's the magic right there. the biggest difference between the two: tesla invests in infrastructure and chevy claims that they won't.

nissan is right in the middle: they invest modestly in chademo infrastructure. better than nothing which means better than chevy... but nowhere near as good as tesla.

all the remaining difference between tesla and chevy products are contestable: i prefer the design of one over the other, one has greater production capacity and will likely ship ontime, one has started from a clean slate to take advantage of EV specific opportunities in design... etc etc. all noise in the end. the big picture is exactly as AlanSqB suggests: tesla has the supercharger network and THAT is significant.

it's the primary reason i plunked down $1k on a model 3 reservation rather than make plans to buy a bolt.
and nissan? i just might upgrade to a new leaf in 2 years rather than a model 3, but they had better make one hell of a compelling vehicle AND more heavily invest in infrastructure between now and then.

I'm in the SuperCharger camp. THAT is what is so compelling about a Tesla. Okay it's fast, yes.

I even have a fairly robust Chademo DC quick-charge network here in Oregon for my Leaf (and i love my Leaf...for now). I mean, a Really, Really good one, all up and down I-5, all up and down Highway 101 (coastal), and even into and over the Cascades (Willamette Valley going east.) But I am not leaving the region with a Leaf. And I cringe when I get to a QC station and the ONE spot for DC charging is already taken. The L2 next to it is not cutting it for timely travels.

FAR and AWAY, Tesla is doing the charging infrastructure right. If GM or Nissan want to even compete here they better get on it. Or just get a battery that will work with a SuperCharger, pay Tesla, and start selling better EVs.

I don't get the feeling they want to any of that. So their EV market is not gonna be growing, guaranteed.

300,000 reservations says it loud and clear.

toyota had alot of time to get me an EV after a great stint with the Prius. Didn't happen, moved on.

Nissan now has 2 years to entice me with Tesla-like features or I will move on. I already see how it is going, but hey, maybe they will get with it.

bitflung said:

i don't know about anyone else, but in the Boston MA region there are plenty* of chademo and superchargers but only 2-3 SAE Combo chargers.

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I see them spreading rapidly. Around here, a lot of formerly-CHAdeMO-only charging stations got upgraded to dual-standard in the last year.