Tesla Powerwall

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
AndyH said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
Supposedly $3500 for 10 kwh
I thought I heard Elon say the $3500 was for 'installers' and assumed wholesale. I see on the Powerwall site, though, that it's listed as $3500 without qualifiers.

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

I got a chuckle out of this:
Both are guaranteed for ten years and are sufficient to power most homes during peak evening hours

The 10kWh model will run an efficient off-grid house for 2.3 days...

Or my house for 5 hours max, 3.5 hours nominally. So it would work for peak times only in my case.
 
In theory, I am very fond of this idea. I'd be inclined to install the unit away from the house in a utility room made out of cinder block, in the same manner I might store propane tanks or gasoline, vented, but not in my attached garage... Paranoid or circumspect...?
 
JimSouCal said:
In theory, I am very fond of this idea. I'd be inclined to install the unit away from the house in a utility room made out of cinder block, in the same manner I might store propane tanks or gasoline, vented, but not in my attached garage... Paranoid or circumspect...?

Only if you charge all your cell phones and laptops in that outdoor shed too.

Make sure it is insulated so the battery doesn't get too cold...
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
AndyH said:
Nothing complex about this stuff at all.
That's a technologically privileged view. Home solar is great for hobbyists and nerds and that's what needs to change. IMO Tesla didn't go far enough here to create an offering with mainstream appeal.
With respect, LTLFT, I'm on record throughout this forum suggesting that one that buys PV and an inverter ONLY capable of being grid-tied is buying half a system. This was validated in a number of threads where other members complained in surprise when they realized only after they wrote the big check that their green electricity would drop off-line when the grid fails.

There are grid-tied/grid-interactive inverters today that can not only do the PV-grid side of the job, but can also charge a battery, and act as the 'generator automatic transfer switch' in the event of a grid failure - so all the critical pieces/tech/knowledge already exists. The only thing that might be missing is the ability to handle a 400V battery rather than a more typical 24 or 48VDC pack, but as that's a typical grid-tied PV voltage level, I expect the 'plug and play' inverter for residential users is already in the works.

Finally, I think that Musk had to omit the inverter part right now (if in fact he did) as, thinking ahead, he apparently intends that the battery will be part of a future smart grid that allows for bi-directional use the way a V2G car battery can be used for grid storage, frequency stabilization, etc. I don't know of any widespread use of that in the US yet outside of utility-scale storage, so he's deploying the 'big pieces' that can be upgraded once the rest of the grid is ready.

If you want to know more about the tech details, ping Reg or GRA - I believe they've both installed on- and off-grid PV systems.

edit...typos
 
Or possibly he/Tesla is leaving some additional 'value add' for SolarCity. Wait and see what they come out with in terms of new offerings in the near future... Tesla provides the battery, SolarCity provides the panels and appropriate inverter to make it all work together perhaps?

It would be a benefit for a solar company to offer a "turn key" system that works on or off grid don't you think? Might just be a competitive advantage... and as a whole system perhaps could all qualify for the 30% federal rebate? Just the battery alone likely doesn't.

Many angles to think of here....

As to capacity - We burn about 15kWh/day (without the car) here. So this unit could provide a very high percentage of that for our home. But other than going "off grid" it isn't a product for our market. We don't have TOU rates and have full net-metering for our solar. Thus it would, at best, be a very expensive emergency power supply (if it can do that) unless additional hardware allows it to interface with our grid-tied solar.

I wonder what the utility companies think of the idea of folks time-shifting loads via the charge/discharge cycle... Seems that it would be good for their grid stability as a whole and thus a good thing, but I wonder if the delta in rates between peak and off-peak will reduce over time (and thus reduce incentive to invest in the battery).
 
If you actually require an off-grid system, you should move. Our grid goes down for minutes a year if it ever does. All those batteries sitting there is a complete waste for the majority of the people. If you are doing peak-hour timing, that is different and can be accomplished with a HV battery into a normal grid-tie inverter.
 
2k1Toaster said:
JimSouCal said:
In theory, I am very fond of this idea. I'd be inclined to install the unit away from the house in a utility room made out of cinder block, in the same manner I might store propane tanks or gasoline, vented, but not in my attached garage... Paranoid or circumspect...?

Only if you charge all your cell phones and laptops in that outdoor shed too.

Make sure it is insulated so the battery doesn't get too cold...
Did you see happen to see the video of the Tesla car fire where the packs lost integrity and burned..? The batteries exploded and burned till the energy was spent in an impressive display like a firework shipment catching fire. Garages are the most common starting point of residential fires... Probably due to gasoline autos...

My point is I don't think there is a household fire suppression technology that would put a dent on the batteries if they became involved in a house fire...

Cell phone and laptop have a much smaller capacity and energy potential. Just sayin...
 
JimSouCal said:
Did you see happen to see the video of the Tesla car fire where the packs lost integrity and burned..? The batteries exploded and burned till the energy was spent in an impressive display like a firework shipment catching fire. Garages are the most common starting point of residential fires... Probably due to gasoline autos...

My point is I don't think there is a household fire suppression technology that would put a dent on the batteries if they became involved in a house fire...

Cell phone and laptop have a much smaller capacity and energy potential. Just sayin...

Luckily I rarely drive my garage over three ball hitches at highway speeds ;-)
 
Even having it on an outside wall, if that bad boy melts down it's probably taking the house with it. Maybe here on CBS houses you stand a chance but even then if it's under an eve I can see it spreading into the roof.
 
Zythryn said:
JimSouCal said:
Did you see happen to see the video of the Tesla car fire where the packs lost integrity and burned..? The batteries exploded and burned till the energy was spent in an impressive display like a firework shipment catching fire. Garages are the most common starting point of residential fires... Probably due to gasoline autos...

My point is I don't think there is a household fire suppression technology that would put a dent on the batteries if they became involved in a house fire...

Cell phone and laptop have a much smaller capacity and energy potential. Just sayin...

Luckily I rarely drive my garage over three ball hitches at highway speeds ;-)


And the prescribed solution for a battery fire on a Tesla pack is to drown it in water....pretty sure that technology is available in most homes.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
palmermd said:
Zythryn said:
JimSouCal said:
Did you see happen to see the video of the Tesla car fire where the packs lost integrity and burned..? The batteries exploded and burned till the energy was spent in an impressive display like a firework shipment catching fire. Garages are the most common starting point of residential fires... Probably due to gasoline autos...

My point is I don't think there is a household fire suppression technology that would put a dent on the batteries if they became involved in a house fire...

Cell phone and laptop have a much smaller capacity and energy potential. Just sayin...

Luckily I rarely drive my garage over three ball hitches at highway speeds ;-)


And the prescribed solution for a battery fire on a Tesla pack is to drown it in water....pretty sure that technology is available in most homes.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-fire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ok, I misunderstood about the water working, so a sprinkler head would work. I am renovating and considering putting sprinklers in the garage. By the way, the Tesla fire I speak of was a stolen one here in Los Angeles, and it was more impressive than the one you link out too. Yes, I know gas cars burn with a fury too!
 
EVDRIVER said:
TimLee said:
$350 per kWh is the real news.
Beats the few competitors out there by quite a bit.
Does pretty clearly show that Nissan's $250 per kWh replacement heat resistant pack with trade-in is at least somewhat below production cost.

:?:
I'm not sure it shows anything more than Tesla charges more. It can also show Nissan has lower costs and better economies of scale. Comparing the cost of two different battery types, configs and from two different makers does not draw any concrete conclusions. Let's see what Apple decides to use in their 200 mile autonomous car...
One difference: Nissan's $250/kWh includes them taking your battery pack in trade and giving you another non-BMS pack in return. So, I don't see much lower costs for Nissan.
 
Musk's presentation. It's available multiple places but this one seems to skip the commercials.
I got the invite to Tesla's Hawthorne Design Center for the 8pm event. Took forever for him to get onstage and talk for about 20 mins. Food was pretty good and plenty of free drinks. Nice to see a lot more people in their 20's-30's in the audience than the usual Tesla crowd (yes, I resemble that remark).
He's not the most polished but I always have this idea that he's working out 2 or 3 other things (landing rocket on hovercraft, hyperloop car pods...). in his head while he's doing a dog & pony. Mom-Musk and his kids were there... sweet.

Not just Tesla owners milling about. I spoke to some "power" people. LEED-type architecture firms and industry consultants. They have just started working with Tesla on a mid-scale project and seemed pretty impressed so far. They think the utility industry is about to be blind-sided again (as with PV popularity). I have no idea if they're right but I've been hearing about electricity storage being the next big thing for about 5 years now.
Maybe.
Dunno when or if I'll buy one of these gadgets.
 
The rated power of 2 kW is almost useless for any home.

I'd been researching backup generators - minimum that would work in our house is about 7/8 kW.
 
2k1Toaster said:
JimSouCal said:
In theory, I am very fond of this idea. I'd be inclined to install the unit away from the house in a utility room made out of cinder block, in the same manner I might store propane tanks or gasoline, vented, but not in my attached garage... Paranoid or circumspect...?

Only if you charge all your cell phones and laptops in that outdoor shed too.

Make sure it is insulated so the battery doesn't get too cold...
I'm with Jim. I charge all my LiCo either on the cement back porch with 3' of clearance all around or in a fireproof bag.

Paranoid or circumspect? Doesn't matter. I like the 'alive, no matter what fails' part, personally. :)
 
sparky said:
Musk's presentation. It's available multiple places but this one seems to skip the commercials.
I got the invite to Tesla's Hawthorne Design Center for the 8pm event. Took forever for him to get onstage and talk for about 20 mins. Food was pretty good and plenty of free drinks. Nice to see a lot more people in their 20's-30's in the audience than the usual Tesla crowd (yes, I resemble that remark).
He's not the most polished but I always have this idea that he's working out 2 or 3 other things (landing rocket on hovercraft, hyperloop car pods...). in his head while he's doing a dog & pony. Mom-Musk and his kids were there... sweet.

Not just Tesla owners milling about. I spoke to some "power" people. LEED-type architecture firms and industry consultants. They have just started working with Tesla on a mid-scale project and seemed pretty impressed so far. They think the utility industry is about to be blind-sided again (as with PV popularity). I have no idea if they're right but I've been hearing about electricity storage being the next big thing for about 5 years now.
Maybe.
Dunno when or if I'll buy one of these gadgets.
Thanks for the link and report!

I think the utility industry's in the midst of a couple of rapid-fire blind-siding events. ;)

http://climatecrocks.com/2015/04/16/why-battery-storage-is-already-unstoppable-and-will-be-huge/
http://rameznaam.com/2015/04/14/energy-storage-about-to-get-big-and-cheap/
A 2014 report by leading investment bank UBS noted, “Our view is that the ‘we have done it like this for a century’ value chain in developed electricity markets will be turned upside down within the next 10–20 years, driven by solar and batteries.” UBS surmises that less-expensive batteries, solar PV, and electric vehicles will empower customers to make their own energy decisions, and effectively make traditional power plants irrelevant by 2025.
http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_04_14_finance_industry_on_ders_solar_and_batteries_are_coming
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBkND76J91k[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYHGRAEtfH4[/youtube]
 
Is there a cost advantage to installing the Powerwall? I don't see it.

I already have solar panels and and am on a Time Of Use (Northern California PG&E E-9) plan with my electric utility.

I get that I would have power if there is an outage, but that is not a compelling enough reason for me.

I can't see how there is a cost advantage here. Currently I "sell" excess generation to PG&E and later use it. However, the utility remembers that I sold them power at a higher rate and then sells it back to me at a lower rate. I would lose this advantage with the PowerWall. I generate a kilowatt-hour during peak times that would be worth (say) $0.50 and later use it when off-peak at say $0.30. So in that scenario I'm $0.20 ahead. But if, instead, I store the generated power in the PowerWall and use it later, I lose the $0.20 advantage. What am I missing here?
 
sakumar said:
Is there a cost advantage to installing the Powerwall? I don't see it.

I already have solar panels and and am on a Time Of Use (Northern California PG&E E-9) plan with my electric utility.

I get that I would have power if there is an outage, but that is not a compelling enough reason for me.

I can't see how there is a cost advantage here. Currently I "sell" excess generation to PG&E and later use it. However, the utility remembers that I sold them power at a higher rate and then sells it back to me at a lower rate. I would lose this advantage with the PowerWall. I generate a kilowatt-hour during peak times that would be worth (say) $0.50 and later use it when off-peak at say $0.30. So in that scenario I'm $0.20 ahead. But if, instead, I store the generated power in the PowerWall and use it later, I lose the $0.20 advantage. What am I missing here?
For the times when power is out (rare but happens), it may very well be worth for some IF having a powewall unit means a microinverter AC array can be left producing leaving one to load manage. Also, the sell back arrangement varies by utility so some may have less pricing delta to take advantage of...?
 
sakumar said:
Is there a cost advantage to installing the Powerwall?
At a more basic level: What problem does Powerwall solve?

The only obvious one that I can see is it provides a way for Tesla to sell more automotive battery packs so that he can try to fill his Gigafactory.

But I don't think a battery pack (originally) engineered for an automobile makes a good wall hanging. I have to wonder if these are already in use today for remote supercharger stations. That application has high value for Tesla and makes a decent amount of sense, but I don't see the same value for hom use.

Even ignoring the hazards mentioned, this thing will simply waste power if hung outdoors on an outside wall in a hot climate.

So, what is the main application?
- Backup generator replacement?
- Off-grid PV?
- Grid-tied PV with backup?
- TOU shifting?

Of all of those, only TOU shifting seems to provide a way for the unit to try to pay for itself. But at a 2kW power rating, you would need a bunch of these for most homes with central air conditioning. But it needs an inverter to have any use. I agree that Solar City will be involved if there are PV applications here.

Frankly, I think Enphase is more on track with their AC Battery. It's small enough and cheap enough for people to experiment with it while still being scalable to large applications.
 
Back
Top