Official BMW i3 thread

cwerdna said:

I appreciate you being up front. I find it somewhat annoying that some of the folks on i3 Facebook group are BMW fanboys are willing to be WAY too forgiving and some seem to engage in Leaf bashing. After having experienced Japanese cars from at least decent to pretty good reliability (and fairly crappy GM cars before), my tolerance level is fairly low. I have no time for a new hobby of taking my car into the "spa" frequently.

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Yep, I'm on that Facebook group, too, and I read it as avidly as you do, so I know what you're talking about. I think I'm ready for some issues with the car, but hopefully not many, we'll see. The car already has the new KLE and recent software, but not the SOC gauge yet. I'm going to have them do that update since they have the car anyway.

Boomer23 said:

I picked up a fully loaded 2014 i3 with the REx range extender on a 3 yr lease as a replacement for my 2013 LEAF SL that's coming off lease in mid-June...
And here's the reliability issue...

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Please do report back.

I still think the I-3 is the most likely candidate today for eventually replacing my LEAF, particularly if BMW comes through on its promise to put DCs on North California Freeways by the end of this year.

But, the reliability issue has been a recurring consideration for me in my thinking on replacing my LEAF with any other BEV.

Four years of driving my LEAF without needing either a tow or a roadside repair (I was the primary mechanic on all my previous ICEVs) have really spoiled me.

I now have breakdown anxiety just thinking about all that crap under the hood whenever I get in an ICEV.

The last thing I want is to have to worry about my BEV's reliability, particularly in that I do a great deal of my driving along lonely roads and/or beyond range of cell phone reception.

And even for minor glitches, the fact that the nearest BMW dealer is ~90 miles away (Chico), makes the reliability issue a significant potential negative, for me.

edatoakrun said:

Boomer23 said:

I picked up a fully loaded 2014 i3 with the REx range extender on a 3 yr lease as a replacement for my 2013 LEAF SL that's coming off lease in mid-June...
And here's the reliability issue...

Click to expand...

Please do report back.

I still think the I-3 is the most likely candidate today for eventually replacing my LEAF, particularly if BMW comes through on its promise to put DCs on North California Freeways by the end of this year.

But, the reliability issue has been a recurring consideration for me in my thinking on replacing my LEAF with any other BEV.

Four years of driving my LEAF without needing either a tow or a roadside repair (I was the primary mechanic on all my previous ICEVs) have really spoiled me.

I now have breakdown anxiety just thinking about all that crap under the hood whenever I get in an ICEV.

The last thing I want is to have to worry about my BEV's reliability, particularly in that I do a great deal of my driving along lonely roads and/or beyond range of cell phone reception.

And even for minor glitches, the fact that the nearest BMW dealer is ~90 miles away (Chico), makes the reliability issue a significant potential negative, for me.

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Ed, is it the comparatively light weight and efficiency of the i3 that attracts you?

Boomer23 said:

Ed, is it the comparatively light weight and efficiency of the i3 that attracts you?

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Short answer, yes, particularly for the BEV (no x).

Long answer, posted previously...

BTW, is their an easy way to search a single thread for one member's (your own?) comments?

edatoakrun said:

Four years of driving my LEAF without needing either a tow or a roadside repair (I was the primary mechanic on all my previous ICEVs) have really spoiled me.

The last thing I want is to have to worry about my BEV's reliability, particularly in that I do a great deal of my driving along lonely roads and/or beyond range of cell phone reception.

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You've fully expressed my thoughts and I totally agree!

edatoakrun said:

Boomer23 said:

I picked up a fully loaded 2014 i3 with the REx range extender on a 3 yr lease as a replacement for my 2013 LEAF SL that's coming off lease in mid-June...
And here's the reliability issue...

Click to expand...

Please do report back.

I still think the I-3 is the most likely candidate today for eventually replacing my LEAF, particularly if BMW comes through on its promise to put DCs on North California Freeways by the end of this year.

But, the reliability issue has been a recurring consideration for me in my thinking on replacing my LEAF with any other BEV.
...
The last thing I want is to have to worry about my BEV's reliability, particularly in that I do a great deal of my driving along lonely roads and/or beyond range of cell phone reception.

And even for minor glitches, the fact that the nearest BMW dealer is ~90 miles away (Chico), makes the reliability issue a significant potential negative, for me.

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Join the i3 Facebook group, if you haven't already.

I have links to a few posts of reliability problems, breakdowns and extended "spa time" but you need to be a member to view them.

cwerdna said:

...Join the i3 Facebook group, if you haven't already.

I have links to a few posts of reliability problems, breakdowns and extended "spa time" but you need to be a member to view them.

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I just peruse "active topics" on the I-3 forum.

http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/search.php?search_id=active_topics&sid=a91e0f031cad93f3b19cca957b30d069" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Four most recent topics, at the moment:

Does anyone else feel let down about their BMW i3 BEV
[ Go to pageGo to page: 1, 2, 3, 4 ]

Occasional use charger nearly started a garage fire
[ Go to pageGo to page: 1, 2, 3 ]

Rex Gas Cap Won't Open
in BMW i3 Rex Specific Discussions

Level 2 charging problem
in Problems / Troubleshooting

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And you thought LEAF owners spent a lot of time bitching...

edatoakrun said:

The last thing I want is to have to worry about my BEV's reliability

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I agree. I have a job that is time critical (shift work where I'm relieving someone else working) and having reliable transportation is critical. The amount of issues that these cars are having is pretty comical, especially considering there were two pilot programs beforehand with the mini-e and active-e. The car was a really good drive when it does work, so the fanboys have some justification for glossing over the bad parts.

What sealed the deal for me not getting an i3 was knowing that there is a flaw in the generator housing for the rex (not the ice, the generator/motor it drives) which causes moisture to stay within it, causing DC isolation issues, and possible corrosion to parts in the housing. I could forgive a few things, but this car seems to have a ton of these kind of design flaws all over it, only some of which we've seen (discovered?) in the field. KLE and motor mounts are the big ones (besides the rex generator housing), but there's also the seriously flawed "self parking" that slams into curbs, airbag issues (a few besides Boomer have reported it), and adaptive cruise control that disengages in bright oncoming sunlight (because it only uses cameras)...

On top of it all, there's no easy way for me to get to the CAN busses! (I have to have a playground!)

JeremyW said:

The amount of issues that these cars are having is pretty comical, especially considering there were two pilot programs beforehand with the mini-e and active-e.

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Yep.

JeremyW said:

The car was a really good drive when it does work, so the fanboys have some justification for glossing over the bad parts.

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The car is quite fast. I've never had a huge amount of time to test out its handling thoroughly, but it definitely wasn't bad, despite the skinny tires. Maybe I'll have to eventually take advantage of their multi-day test drive program...

JeremyW said:

What sealed the deal for me not getting an i3 was knowing that there is a flaw in the generator housing for the rex (not the ice, the generator/motor it drives) which causes moisture to stay within it, causing DC isolation issues, and possible corrosion to parts in the housing.

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Oh... I either forgot about that or missed it.

JeremyW said:

I could forgive a few things, but this car seems to have a ton of these kind of design flaws all over it, only some of which we've seen (discovered?) in the field. KLE and motor mounts are the big ones (besides the rex generator housing), but there's also the seriously flawed "self parking" that slams into curbs, airbag issues (a few besides Boomer have reported it), and adaptive cruise control that disengages in bright oncoming sunlight (because it only uses cameras)...

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Re: KLE, indeed. It was crazy that it was discovered KLEs were being fried here in the US and thus BMW put on a "band aid" of turning down the L2 charge rate until a redesigned part was available (months later). Really?

Yeah, very buggy self-parking that hits curbs and sometimes damages wheels is odd. I don't think I ever heard of complaints like that w/the self-parking that was available on the 2010-2011 Prius.

As for adaptive cruise control disengagement issues, yeah, how could they ship a feature like that coupled w/the strong regen? There have been numerous complaints on the i3 FB group about that. And, there are been numerous reports about they almost got rear-ended or really pissed off someone behind them because the ACC decided suddenly disengage, causing the VERY strong regen kick in. If BMW knew this could happen, they should've yanked the feature or at least give some audible and visual warnings and NOT engage the crazy strong regen when ACC unexpectedly disengages.

I don't monitor the mybmwi3.com forum much anymore, but someone else who I know is semi-interested (he's had a few Priuses and now a Volt) is on both that fourm and the FB group and has msg'ed me privately that the reliability problems seen on the forum are similar to that of the FB group.

Cars are cars, and in a community of owners of the same car we will hear about every problem even when it only effects a handful of owners, and sometimes a single instance.

Does the i3 have any problems? Of course it does, just like every other mass produced vehicle. Have a look at the Problems/Troubleshooting section of this forum and there are plenty of Leaf problems too. I cancelled the Leaf on the basis of posts regarding capacity losses in a similar climate to the one I live in, as well as poor Nissan corp and local dealer service.

Does that make the Leaf a high problem vehicle? No it doesn't, and neither is the i3. Forums bring out the problems, but not so many owners posting about zero problems. The top quoted topic from the i3 forum above "Does anyone else feel let down about their BMW i3 BEV " has more people saying they don't have any problems than the few feeling let down by their BEV. Go read it: Does anyone else feel let down about their BMW i3 BEV

I have an i3 BEV and it has been exemplary since delivery, not a single issue so far (touches wood)

Beleaf said:

Does the i3 have any problems? Of course it does, just like every other mass produced vehicle. Have a look at the Problems/Troubleshooting section of this forum and there are plenty of Leaf problems too. I cancelled the Leaf on the basis of posts regarding capacity losses in a similar climate to the one I live in, as well as poor Nissan corp and local dealer service.

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To say that all vehicles' reliability are equal is rather naive! Other than the battery issue, which no other BEV
has logged more vehicle miles to really provide comparative data, the Leaf has had no real reliability
problems, e.g. recalls, compared to what we're hearing about the i3. Given that the i3 is just a little over
a year on the market, the "jury-is-still-out" on the i3 and the i3 Rex especially, which is not the case for
the Leaf. A Leaf buyer knows the reality of his purchase.

Bottom line: Why would anyone consider buying an i3 with all its 'knowns' and potential 'unknowns' versus
a Leaf, where the i3 provides no real benefits over the Leaf, e.g. range, features, cost, and availability of
charging options/locations?

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

Does the i3 have any problems? Of course it does, just like every other mass produced vehicle. Have a look at the Problems/Troubleshooting section of this forum and there are plenty of Leaf problems too. I cancelled the Leaf on the basis of posts regarding capacity losses in a similar climate to the one I live in, as well as poor Nissan corp and local dealer service.

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To say that all vehicles' reliability are equal is rather naive! Other than the battery issue, which no other BEV
has logged more vehicle miles to really provide comparative data, the Leaf has had no real reliability
problems, e.g. recalls, compared to what we're hearing about the i3. Given that the i3 is just a little over
a year on the market, the "jury-is-still-out" on the i3 and the i3 Rex especially, which is not the case for
the Leaf. A Leaf buyer knows the reality of his purchase.

Bottom line: Why would anyone consider buying an i3 with all its 'knowns' and potential 'unknowns' versus
a Leaf, where the i3 provides no real benefits over the Leaf, e.g. range, features, cost, and availability of
charging options/locations?

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People are buying them so the answer is clearly 'yes'. The lack of active thermal battery management on the Leaf (and the Golf) is a major design error IMO and the main reason I cancelled my order. The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency. The Leaf has advantages in cost, number of seats, and (for some) the plain jane blend in styling.

I didn't say both vehicles reliability is equal. I said that both vehicles have experienced design and production issues that have been posted on the forums. The Leaf had the advantage from the start because it is a converted already mass produced ICE chassis, not a complete greenfield design from scratch with new materials and manufacturing processes.

Beleaf said:

The lack of active thermal battery management on the Leaf (and the Golf) is a major design error IMO and the main reason I cancelled my order.

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TMS requires a key trade-off in range, especially for BEVs with battery capacities less than 25kWhr.
Many Leaf owners in more temperate climates don't value TMS over range.

Beleaf said:

The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.

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What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.

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What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.

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The i3 BEV can go 81 EPA miles on 18.8 usable kWh as opposed to the Leaf's 84 miles on 21.x usable kWh.

The EPA fueleconomy.gov site shows the i3 BEV using 27 kWh to go 100 miles whereas the Leaf requires 30 kWh to go the same distance.

MPGe for the i3 BEV is 124 whereas the Leaf is 114.

These signs point to the i3 being more efficient with a given amount of energy than the Leaf.

mtndrew1 said:

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.

Click to expand...

What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.

Click to expand...

The i3 BEV can go 81 EPA miles on 18.8 usable kWh as opposed to the Leaf's 84 miles on 21.x usable kWh.

The EPA fueleconomy.gov site shows the i3 BEV using 27 kWh to go 100 miles whereas the Leaf requires 30 kWh to go the same distance.

MPGe for the i3 BEV is 124 whereas the Leaf is 114.

These signs point to the i3 being more efficient with a given amount of energy than the Leaf.

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So, you can always find an efficiency test versus another that indicates one vehicle having a better
efficiency than another. The efficiency of both under all types of driving conditions that most drivers
experience is very close, i.e. less than the 8% from the EPA test. Given the price delta between the two,
that variable becomes a non-factor for most all buyers.

lorenfb said:

What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf?

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Well you asked for the basis, there's the basis. An agency that does the identical test procedure on both cars determined the i3 is more efficient.

Clearly the i3 is a much more expensive car with its own pros and cons, but it's pretty clearly more efficient than the Leaf, even with TMS keeping its batteries at an ideal temperature.

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

The lack of active thermal battery management on the Leaf (and the Golf) is a major design error IMO and the main reason I cancelled my order.

Click to expand...

TMS requires a key trade-off in range, especially for BEVs with battery capacities less than 25kWhr.
Many Leaf owners in more temperate climates don't value TMS over range.

Beleaf said:

The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.

Click to expand...

What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.

Click to expand...

As already posted above, the i3 has been tested and shown to be more efficient than basically any other production EV. That won't matter to all buyers, but it will matter to many. Those that rate electrical efficiency probably also rate the fact that i3 production is significantly powered by renewable energy, uses a lot of environmentally friendly materials, and is significantly recyclable at end of life.

The i3 has TMS and is still more efficient than the Leaf which has no TMS, so even if you don't think you need it, it comes at no practical efficiency loss for those in temperate climates.

Beleaf said:

The i3 has TMS and is still more efficient than the Leaf which has no TMS, so even if you don't think you need it, it comes at no practical efficiency loss for those in temperate climates.

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The i3 should be AT LEAST 14% more efficient given the weight difference of 457 (3256 - 2799),
but as stated before is just a lowly 8% better. Most likely the AC induction motor and the TMS reduced
the efficiency. It doesn't take much engineering insight to evaluate where the differences are for a BEV
comparative analysis.

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

The i3 has TMS and is still more efficient than the Leaf which has no TMS, so even if you don't think you need it, it comes at no practical efficiency loss for those in temperate climates.

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The i3 should be AT LEAST 14% more efficient given the weight difference of 457 (3256 - 2799),
but as stated before is just a lowly 8% better. Most likely the AC induction motor and the TMS reduced
the efficiency. It doesn't take much engineering insight to evaluate where the differences are for a BEV
comparative analysis.

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Yet it is still more efficient. No amount of pitching TMS differences, weight, Cd, Electric motor types, Tyre sizes and construction, 'Engineering', etc. alter the fact that the i3 is in production today, has been for over a year and it IS more efficient.

Will there be an even more efficient EV (perhaps even a future more efficient Leaf?) I reckon so, and I thank BMW for lifting the bar with innovative construction and design. It takes guts to step outside the square, and BM stepped further outside than Nissan. Good on them, they got my vote, and I couldn't be happier with it.

Beleaf said:

It takes guts to step outside the square, and BM stepped further outside than Nissan. Good on them, they got my vote, and I couldn't be happier with it.

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That's why they sold only 406 for April in the U.S. (a decline of over 50%) versus only a 15% decline for the
Leaf, right? Buyers really value that 8% additional efficiency when considering an i3 versus the Leaf, right?