Official BMW i3 thread

Not having TMS in an EV is just stupid.

Teslas still have 92% capacity after 100k miles in the real world. Volts and smart EDs see no more than 1-2% capacity drain per 10k miles, if that.

Do you know what's really inefficient about a Leaf? Buying a brand new battery every 4-5 years of ownership in non-mild climates, or living with substantially reduced range.

Nobody is buying i3 because it's the most efficient EV (you'll never come remotely close to making up that cost difference even after hundreds of thousands of miles driven), and it does have a substantial price premium. i3 owners likely will never have to worry about too much range degradation though.

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

It takes guts to step outside the square, and BM stepped further outside than Nissan. Good on them, they got my vote, and I couldn't be happier with it.

Click to expand...

That's why they sold only 406 for April in the U.S. (a decline of over 50%) versus only a 15% decline for the
Leaf, right? Buyers really value that 8% additional efficiency when considering an i3 versus the Leaf, right?

Click to expand...

LOL. I'm just one buyer, and even if BMW sold zero i3's that wouldn't alter the innovative design, manufacturing and efficiency of the car. Monthly sales are variable, and good design is only part of a successful product. The Leaf is a mature product line with repeat buyers, the i3 is still finding it's mark.

eloder said:

Nobody is buying i3 because it's the most efficient EV (you'll never come remotely close to making up that cost difference even after hundreds of thousands of miles driven), and it does have a substantial price premium. i3 owners likely will never have to worry about too much range degradation though.

Click to expand...

Efficiency is one of the reasons I bought the i3. TMS was definitely on my list, and the design and manufacturing process were extra benefits to me. I don't look for a cost benefit of efficiency.

Beleaf said:

the i3 is still finding it's mark.

Click to expand...

That's what Blackberry said about their Playbook tablet when the Apple iPad came out.

This past Earth Day I took a 2nd look at the i3 at a local Earth Day event.

When it first came out, I balked at the styling and the backward rear doors. But I'm finding that the styling is growing on me. :|

Though I'm still not sold on those rear doors. I'm starting to conclude this car has a lot of merit.

One thing I'm very glad about - the increase in EV choices at different price points and styles. Just as the ICE market has so many different models because different customers have different preferences, if the EV market is to really take hold, we need this type of variety too.

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

the i3 is still finding it's mark.

Click to expand...

That's what Blackberry said about their Playbook tablet when the Apple iPad came out.

Click to expand...

Trolling?

Have a look at the first year or two of Leaf sales. It took quite a while for regular high numbers to occur and even so there has been many ups and downs on the way.

I think we've covered the bases. The i3 is not a Leaf, and probably no-one with an i3 would want it to be a Leaf. It has more innovation, it has TMS and it is more efficient. What happens in the future will happen, but one thing for sure, the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.

Beleaf said:

the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.

Click to expand...

Not really! One can easily say that about the Tesla MS too. Basically, any OEM could easily have designed
and manufactured a model like an i3 at its price point, but most OEMs see the price point to a volume
market BEV at $35K or lower. This obviously requires a number of design compromises. Remember, many
potential BEV buyers are "climate change deniers" and make their buying decisions totally based on
economics, e.g. what's the overall cost of ownership of 40-45 mpg four door ICE for a family of three
versus an equivalent BEV. It appears that BMW wishes to not participate in the volume BEV market as it
does with its other vehicles. Given that, then BMW will have to further differentiate it BEV product by
providing better features than the i3, e.g. a 200 mile range, if it expects to have a viable volume market
for its BEV or continue to be a low volume BEV niche "player".

What happens in the future will happen, but one thing for sure, the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.

Click to expand...

I guess that would be true if Tesla didn't exist and put out an even more incredible machine three years ago.

I could see what you mean if A) The i3 had any range advantage due to its engineering (it doesn't), B) It cost less (it doesn't), C) They made the lightest EV out there for its footprint (they didn't), D) The efficiency allowed it to charge faster than a Tesla (it doesn't), or E) They made the safest EV out there (they didn't). The only unique thing the i3 has it that it is primarily a BEV with an REX option, even if it's vastly inferior to how the Volt handles their REX.

I guess there are a few people out there who'll buy it solely because it's produced by renewable energy (Tesla will produce all components including batteries with renewables in a couple of years), or somehow think that the efficiency has a benefit other than saving slightly on fuel for a $10k higher initial investment, but I just fail to see what's so special about the car at its extra-special price point and its BMW logo.

lorenfb said:

Beleaf said:

the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.

Click to expand...

Not really! One can easily say that about the Tesla MS too. Basically, any OEM could easily have designed
and manufactured a model like an i3 at its price point, but most OEMs see the price point to a volume
market BEV at $35K or lower. This obviously requires a number of design compromises. Remember, many
potential BEV buyers are "climate change deniers" and make their buying decisions totally based on
economics, e.g. what's the overall cost of ownership of 40-45 mpg four door ICE for a family of three
versus an equivalent BEV. It appears that BMW wishes to not participate in the volume BEV market as it
does with its other vehicles. Given that, then BMW will have to further differentiate it BEV product by
providing better features than the i3, e.g. a 200 mile range, if it expects to have a viable volume market
for its BEV or continue to be a low volume BEV niche "player".

Click to expand...

What Tesla has done is raised the bar as well, by innovating around the battery construction and capacity, and the size and performance of the Model S. Efficiency and innovative construction materials are not their high points. Around the city, which is what the i3 is designed for, the Model S has too much battery and too much body to be efficient. They have managed to quell the range anxiety of their potential buyers though. The relative efficiency improves on the highway, but the i3 is a city car not a long distance cruiser.

In any market, there is a range of pricing to suit a range of buyers. As per normal, BMW pitched higher than Nissan. Do we expect the i3 to outsell the Leaf, and if it doesn't it's a failure? Nissan/Renault sells about 4 times the volume of cars sold by BMW, they exist in different sectors of the market. What BMW does is up to BMW, but the engineers who did the i3 teardown reckon it is profitable after 20,000 units, maybe BMW is smarter than you think by creating a unique, efficient design and pricing it above the Leaf...

Climate change deniers, there's a thread for that...

eloder said:

What happens in the future will happen, but one thing for sure, the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.

Click to expand...

I guess that would be true if Tesla didn't exist and put out an even more incredible machine three years ago.

I could see what you mean if A) The i3 had any range advantage due to its engineering (it doesn't), B) It cost less (it doesn't), C) They made the lightest EV out there for its footprint (they didn't), D) The efficiency allowed it to charge faster than a Tesla (it doesn't), or E) They made the safest EV out there (they didn't). The only unique thing the i3 has it that it is primarily a BEV with an REX option, even if it's vastly inferior to how the Volt handles their REX.

I guess there are a few people out there who'll buy it solely because it's produced by renewable energy (Tesla will produce all components including batteries with renewables in a couple of years), or somehow think that the efficiency has a benefit other than saving slightly on fuel for a $10k higher initial investment, but I just fail to see what's so special about the car at its extra-special price point and its BMW logo.

Click to expand...

The Tesla is a great machine, no doubt, and the i3 is nothing like it. There are innovations on both that raise the bar for the whole EV industry and there is space for a wide range of EV's in the growing EV market.

Regarding efficiency, what the i3 has is the best efficiency regardless of size, so even though it's not the smallest or the lightest, or the best range etc, but it remains the most efficient production EV since release. For those of us who charge from on-site renewables, that is something worth considering.

I have PV, solar thermal, biomass heating, LED lights, 3200lt water butt and a lot of insulation! and I looked long and hard into electric cars. My last car was a diesel golf which covered 283,000 miles before I let it go. I had a leaf for a week and test drove the i3. I now drive the latest version of the Bluemotion Golf. The cost was similar to a fairly new leaf and over £10k less than an i3, (not much of a second-hand market in the UK for the i3 at the moment.) I plumped for the ICE because I can cope with the servicing and running expenses, but the EV just won't last as long, and unless the government legislate to disadvantage ICEs in the future, the ICE is a no-brainer!

edatoakrun said:

Boomer23 said:

I picked up a fully loaded 2014 i3 with the REx range extender on a 3 yr lease as a replacement for my 2013 LEAF SL that's coming off lease in mid-June...
And here's the reliability issue...

Click to expand...

Please do report back.

Click to expand...

Reporting back as promised on the restraint system fault that popped up on my week-old i3 REx. The dealer's diagnosis appears to have been accurate, a fault in a main wiring harness, part needed to be shipped from Germany. ETA for the part was 10 days, but happily it only took 7 days. Repair solved the issue.

From social media, I knew that there is a software update available that adds a SOC% indicator and a few other tweaks. Since they had the car anyway, I requested they do the update. Service Mgr declined, saying that BMW wouldn't pay for a software update unless software was causing a problem. I would not accept that, and I mentioned that my evaluation of the service visit would reflect my dissatisfaction. Magic words, apparently, because the update was done.

According to the very active i3 Facebook group, other owners are having a similar problem getting software updates. BMW seems to be having trouble communicating with dealer service departments that they very much want to keep the i3 fleet software updated and they'll certainly pay for it. EV teething problems, like every other mfr that uses the dealership model ( everyone except Tesla).

I'm thoroughly enjoying the car. It's very well appointed, loaded with useful and fun features, accelerates quickly enough to be great fun any time I want a bit of excitement, but being rear drive, I never lose traction like the RAV and Benz front wheels do in Sport mode. Visibility is outstanding, interior materials feel and look high quality to my eyes, steering is tight and quick, efficiency seems equivalent to the LEAF's or better.

The i3 owner community seems to consist of very nice folks with helpful attitudes, not a snobbish group at all, from my observations. I participated in an event this past weekend to celebrate the i3's first year in the US. The event was well supported by BMW at several locations around the country, and I get a feeling of support and commitment from BMW on this program.

The question is, do you believe it is worth the extra $300/month you pay more than the Leaf, given the ranges are similar?. Perhaps it is, but just want to you what you think?

mkjayakumar said:

The question is, do you believe it is worth the extra $300/month you pay more than the Leaf, given the ranges are similar?. Perhaps it is, but just want to you what you think?

Click to expand...

In a word, yes, but I'm not paying $300/mo more than I paid to lease a fully loaded LEAF SL, I'm paying within about $30 a month more. Agreed I'm paying a few hundred more a month than the current best deals to lease a LEAF.

That doesn't matter to me. The LEAF is an excellent car, and I'll miss my 2013 SL a bit, especially the 4-camera parking system. But I'm bored and ready for something more interesting. I'm at the stage of life, mid-60s, when I have the resources to prioritize fun and novelty over pure economics, and the shadow of impending aging urging me to drive what I really want for the next 10-15 years, while I still can, expense being a secondary consideration.

The i3 provides enough fun and novelty over the LEAF to make it very much worth the premium to me. The only EV available that meets more of my criteria than the BMW is the Tesla Model S. I found it too large and heavy for my tastes. And my total costs for a 3 year lease on the fully loaded BMW will be only 40% of what they would have been with the Tesla. So I truly feel like I got a bargain.

Lastly, the range extender on the BMW gives me a way to cut the range "leash" that I've experienced with the LEAF over the last 4+ years. So I get a fully electric car, with all of the benefits that we all appreciate about electric driving. And then I'm packing a 60 mile range extender to eliminate the issues that often arise with the reliability of public quick charging. An excellent fit for my particular lifestyle and set of criteria.

Boomer23 said:

mkjayakumar said:

The question is, do you believe it is worth the extra $300/month you pay more than the Leaf, given the ranges are similar?. Perhaps it is, but just want to you what you think?

Click to expand...

In a word, yes, but I'm not paying $300/mo more than I paid to lease a fully loaded LEAF SL, I'm paying within about $30 a month more. Agreed I'm paying a few hundred more a month than the current best deals to lease a LEAF.

That doesn't matter to me. The LEAF is an excellent car, and I'll miss my 2013 SL a bit, especially the 4-camera parking system. But I'm bored and ready for something more interesting. I'm at the stage of life, mid-60s, when I have the resources to prioritize fun and novelty over pure economics, and the shadow of impending aging urging me to drive what I really want for the next 10-15 years, while I still can, expense being a secondary consideration.

The i3 provides enough fun and novelty over the LEAF to make it very much worth the premium to me. The only EV available that meets more of my criteria than the BMW is the Tesla Model S. I found it too large and heavy for my tastes. And my total costs for a 3 year lease on the fully loaded BMW will be only 40% of what they would have been with the Tesla. So I truly feel like I got a bargain.

Lastly, the range extender on the BMW gives me a way to cut the range "leash" that I've experienced with the LEAF over the last 4+ years. So I get a fully electric car, with all of the benefits that we all appreciate about electric driving. And then I'm packing a 60 mile range extender to eliminate the issues that often arise with the reliability of public quick charging. An excellent fit for my particular lifestyle and set of criteria.

Click to expand...

Are you planning to do the hack that uncripples the REx?

GRA said:

Are you planning to do the hack that uncripples the REx?

Click to expand...

Not for a while, at least, but I won't say never. The reality is that the vast majority of my driving will be done in the LA/OC coastal plain, where hill climbs at the end of a drive with a depleted battery are not common. My skiing days are probably behind me, so destination climbs to the San Gabriels are not likely. For distance trips, though, the hack that gives you an extra half gallon from the tiny fuel tank would be appealing. Generally, I'm not the hacker type, preferring to leave complex mechanisms that are under warranty alone. I'll have to see whether the appeal of the hacks overcomes that personality flaw. :lol:

Boomer23 said:

GRA said:

Are you planning to do the hack that uncripples the REx?

Click to expand...

Not for a while, at least, but I won't say never. The reality is that the vast majority of my driving will be done in the LA/OC coastal plain, where hill climbs at the end of a drive with a depleted battery are not common. My skiing days are probably behind me, so destination climbs to the San Gabriels are not likely. For distance trips, though, the hack that gives you an extra half gallon from the tiny fuel tank would be appealing. Generally, I'm not the hacker type, preferring to leave complex mechanisms that are under warranty alone. I'll have to see whether the appeal of the hacks overcomes that personality flaw. :lol:

Click to expand...

I hear you on the warranty bit. I'm still spry enough to ski (X-C), hike, backpack etc. for hopefully at least another decade, and being in the Bay Area it's all uphill after an hour or two for most of those, so the hack would be essential for me (assuming the i3 met my other needs, which it doesn't). The fuel hack, definitely.

Boomer23 said:

Lastly, the range extender on the BMW gives me a way to cut the range "leash" that I've experienced with the LEAF over the last 4+ years. So I get a fully electric car, with all of the benefits that we all appreciate about electric driving. And then I'm packing a 60 mile range extender to eliminate the issues that often arise with the reliability of public quick charging. An excellent fit for my particular lifestyle and set of criteria.

Click to expand...

Please provide the forum insight into the i3's capability and safety when in the Rex Mode, given the
variability of terrains in SoCal. As an example, if one needed to use the 241 south off of the 91 to
drive to Mission Viejo, how would that drive be during heavy traffic with the average speed being
around 55-60 mph? Also, if one needed to travel south on the 73 from Newport Beach to the 5,
how would the Rex Mode operate, i.e. speed wise, during heavy traffic moving at 55-60 mph in
the uphill terrains? This also applies going north on the 73 off of the 5 to Newport Beach.

lorenfb said:

Boomer23 said:

Lastly, the range extender on the BMW gives me a way to cut the range "leash" that I've experienced with the LEAF over the last 4+ years. So I get a fully electric car, with all of the benefits that we all appreciate about electric driving. And then I'm packing a 60 mile range extender to eliminate the issues that often arise with the reliability of public quick charging. An excellent fit for my particular lifestyle and set of criteria.

Click to expand...

Please provide the forum insight into the i3's capability and safety when in the Rex Mode, given the
variability of terrains in SoCal. As an example, if one needed to use the 241 south off of the 91 to
drive to Mission Viejo, how would that drive be during heavy traffic with the average speed being
around 55-60 mph? Also, if one needed to travel south on the 73 from Newport Beach to the 5,
how would the Rex Mode operate, i.e. speed wise, during heavy traffic moving at 55-60 mph in
the uphill terrains? This also applies going north on the 73 off of the 5 to Newport Beach.

Click to expand...

I'll consider that, but no promises and no timeline expectations. None of those routes are in my normal drive habits. Recognize, too, that would involve spending toll money and burning gas, when my tendency is to do neither. However, in the interest of learning my new car's behavior under various conditions, it may be worth my while, and I'm always happy to share interesting findings for interested groups if I happen to possess novel information.

Boomer23 said:

I'll consider that, but no promises and no timeline expectations. None of those routes are in my normal drive habits. Recognize, too, that would involve spending toll money and burning gas, when my tendency is to do neither. However, in the interest of learning my new car's behavior under various conditions, it may be worth my while, and I'm always happy to share interesting findings for interested groups if I happen to possess novel information.

Click to expand...

Thanks, looking forward to the results. My Leaf uses about 18 HP (LeafSpy) cruising at about 50-55 mph
on level terrain. Obviously, when climbing any uphill grade that number really increases, i.e. easily doubles.