Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

evnow said:

minispeed said:

The leaf and volt gen 2 both have different expectations for their companies. Chev has always said they needed to save money on making the car that it needs to turn a profit. We see that with essentially a carry over battery design where most of the extra range is from opening up usable capacity. We also see that GM will start using the voltec drivetrain as a non PHEV in the Malibu hybrid and then going into new territory with the bolt. GM said back in 2012 I think they needed to take $10k out of the cost of the car. They then cut the price $5K so assuming they did this and dropped the price a bit there should be $4k or so in profit now.

Click to expand...

That is the problem with companies like GM - they set low expectations. Atleast that is one thing we can't accuse Tesla of.

If plugins are to really take hold in the market, there need to be quantum improvements in generations - not marginal.

Of course the biggest problem with Volt is that it is the wrong form factor - even after seeing the runaway success of Outlander, why is no one coming up with a PHEV SUV ? (no, I'm not talking about SUVs in the Tesla price range).

Click to expand...

In this case, GM (Dan Akerson) set high expectations, that they could get the price of the car down another $7-10k. I think they need(ed) to get the MSRP down to no more than $32k, but to overcome the psychological barrier and turn it into a really mass market car they need to get it down to no more than $30k. Maybe some more de-contenting is in the future, although I really wouldn't want to go with much less than what the LT's standard equipment plus the Comfort package has, as far as maximum utility goes. I expect this will boost sales demand and prices for the remaining 2015s, so another possibility is that GM would announce a 2nd gen. price cut after 6-12 months. The gotta-have-it-now customers will have paid full freight by then, and GM will need to entice the more practical, cost-conscious buyers after that.

Re the (AWD) PHEV SUV, we're on the same wavelength there.

evnow said:

...
If Leaf 2 has figures like this compared to Gen 1, it would be DOA. (30% more range, 3% price cut) I want
- 100% more range (atleast optionally)
- Double range for nearly the same price as top line model now
....
Are my expectations for Gen 2, too high ?

Click to expand...

I think the entire market has expectations set too high. The Gen2 Leaf will compete with the Bolt, which start at $37k. Battery prices are coming down, but Leaf prices are already coming down too. Battery weight and volume aren't improving nearly as much. If Nissan goes all out on price for the Leaf2, they take a loss on 2015/2016 Leafs that haven't been sold yet, and they take a big loss on leased Leafs that they have to sell, and their reward is to sell the new models at closer to cost instead of making a profit to recoup their R&D investment. Plus, Nissan wins the race to 200,000 which means GM gets a bonus round to catch up while GM cars keep getting the $7500 rebate which Nissan has used up.

More realistically, expect the high end model to have a >2x battery but also a much higher price, especially compared with the entry 24kwh models, which will continue with modest upgrades and price reductions. I expect the Volt2 msrp to drop to about $32k late next year when the Bolt comes out, $5k less than a new Bolt, and I would expect the entry Leafs to be around $27k-$28k. Factor in the $7500 federal rebate and these cars are very reasonably priced.

Some good info here on the differences between the Gen 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0 batteries, via ievs:

2016 Chevrolet Volt – Technical Battery Slides Video

Click to expand...

http://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-volt-technical-battery-slides-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

evnow said:

...
If Leaf 2 has figures like this compared to Gen 1, it would be DOA. I want
- 100% more range (at least optionally)
- Double range for nearly the same price as top line model now
- Non-polarizing looks

Are my expectations for Gen 2, too high ?

Click to expand...

Yes, expectations too high for 2016, o.k. for 2017. Interesting how expectations have changed from two years ago: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

evnow said:

...8% improvement per year...

Click to expand...

DanCar said:

Yes, expectations too high for 2016, o.k. for 2017.

Click to expand...

Leaf 2 would be a MY17 car.

Interesting how expectations have changed from two years ago: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

evnow said:

...8% improvement per year...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Interesting - I should revive that thread to see where people think we'll be in 2018.

8% improvement would mean about 60% improvement in range by MY17 (compared to MY11). This would translate to a range of 130 by MY17, instead of 170. I'm actually looking for about 150 EPA miles of range for Leaf 2, even though I say nominally double the range.

Volt MY11 had a range of 35 miles. MY16 Volt will have 50 - which interestingly is bang on 8% annual improvement.

evnow said:

<snip>
Interesting - I should revive that thread to see where people think we'll be in 2018.

8% improvement would mean about 60% improvement in range by MY17 (compared to MY11). This would translate to a range of 130 by MY17, instead of 170. I'm actually looking for about 150 EPA miles of range for Leaf 2, even though I say nominally double the range.

Volt MY11 had a range of 35 miles. MY16 Volt will have 50 - which interestingly is bang on 8% annual improvement.

Click to expand...

Only a 17% improvement in Specific Energy per the link I provided a couple of posts back - the rest is due to opening out the usable SoC range, plus some efficiency improvements elsewhere. It remains to be seen how well the new battery will hold up over the long term, compared to the original using a smaller SoC range.

GRA, in regards to how the Volt battery will hold up. The video in your previous post indicates that GM expects the gen 1 battery to retain around 75% of its capacity at 150,000 miles. The gen 2 battery is slightly better. This is about 13 years for an average driver.

LKK said:

GRA, in regards to how the Volt battery will hold up. The video in your previous post indicates that GM expects the gen 1 battery to retain around 75% of its capacity at 150,000 miles. The gen 2 battery is slightly better. This is about 13 years for an average driver.

Click to expand...

The graph scale goes from 60% to 100%. I measured the pixels; the numbers are quite impressive. I think MY2013-15 Volts count as a gen1.5
87% capacity: gen2 Volt at 150k miles
85% capacity: gen1.5 Volt at 150k miles
81% capacity: gen1.0 Volt at 150k miles

My '14 Volt, which lives in Texas with its hot summers, probably has a very long healthy life ahead of it... One of the things GM got right was putting in a liquid TMS system into the Volt

BernieTx said:

One of the things GM got right was putting in a liquid TMS system into the Volt

Click to expand...

And a backup gasoline engine!

LKK said:

GRA, in regards to how the Volt battery will hold up. The video in your previous post indicates that GM expects the gen 1 battery to retain around 75% of its capacity at 150,000 miles. The gen 2 battery is slightly better. This is about 13 years for an average driver.

Click to expand...

What a company expects and what customers actually see are often wildly at variance, as numerous LEAF owners can tell you Until these batteries get out into mass use and get the necessary years on them, we won't know for sure; all we (GM) have until then are the results of limited-scale accelerated tests designed to replicate, as much as possible, long-term battery use. That's helpful, but only real-world mass use will confirm that's how the batteries actually hold up. The oldest customer Volt battery has been in service less than 5 years, so everything beyond that is extrapolation and prediction. If GM were making use of the same SoC % on the Gen 2 battery as they did Gen 1, you might be able to put a bit more weight on the accuracy of their prediction, but since they are allowing a greater % SoC, they're introducing another variable into the equation beyond a tweaked chemistry.

In the case of the non-thermally managed leaf battery lots of people looked at that and said hey that's not good while Nissan was saying no problem we have this figured out. We all know how that story ended, at least in the short term.
Score a point for GM for doing what many thought needed to be done, and while we won't know with certainty how that worked out for a few more years (at which point nobody will care anyway as technology will have moved on), at least they did what was reasonably thought to be a properly engineered design, and so far it seems to be working out.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Score a point for GM for doing what many thought needed to be done, and while we won't know with certainty how that worked out for a few more years (at which point nobody will care anyway as technology will have moved on), at least they did what was reasonably thought to be a properly engineered design, and so far it seems to be working out.

Click to expand...

But - GM had sacrifice a lot of things for that - like the 5th seat, high price etc.

Apparently Nissan has been able to solve problems within Gen 1 - whereas GM hasn't been able to advance the needle much even in Gen 2.

evnow said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

Score a point for GM for doing what many thought needed to be done, and while we won't know with certainty how that worked out for a few more years (at which point nobody will care anyway as technology will have moved on), at least they did what was reasonably thought to be a properly engineered design, and so far it seems to be working out.

Click to expand...

But - GM had sacrifice a lot of things for that - like the 5th seat, high price etc.

Apparently Nissan has been able to solve problems within Gen 1 - whereas GM hasn't been able to advance the needle much even in Gen 2.

Click to expand...

+1 for what LTLFT composite wrote. Nissan had a lot more problems to solve, while GM was building from more strength. The choice of the T-shape rather than a skateboard was an attempt to keep costs down by using an existing platform, and was only partially successful, while limiting the utility for those who wanted/needed a fifth seat. I do agree that the 2nd gen. could have been done better, and they really should have stepped up and designed a platform that could handle just about any powertrain without significant encroachment into the passenger/cargo area, the way VW did with their MQB. Still, the number of people who really need five seats is an ever-decreasing part of the U.S. population, so we'll have to see how important that is. The biggest advantage for the Volt is that I expect 1st gen Volts in considerable numbers to still be on the road in regular use a decade from now, and that's highly unlikely for 1st gen LEAFs. Depending on the price of gas, of course.

Apparently no Bolt for GM.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/30/chevy-bolt-trademark-application-suspended-uspto/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chevy Bolt trademark application suspended by USPTO

So, what will the BEV be called ? I suppose reVOLT.

evnow said:

Chevy Bolt trademark application suspended by USPTO

Click to expand...

Bolt was a terrible name anyway, considering how confusingly similar sounding it is to Volt. My guess is they will probably trademark "Bolt EV". That should fix both problems.

evnow said:

Apparently no Bolt for GM.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/30/chevy-bolt-trademark-application-suspended-uspto/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chevy Bolt trademark application suspended by USPTO

So, what will the BEV be called ? I suppose reVOLT.

Click to expand...

Via GCR:

Chevy Bolt EV Trademark To Be Shared With Yamaha After U.S. Patent Office Suspension: UPDATE

Click to expand...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098530_chevy-bolt-ev-trademark-suspended-due-to-yamaha-conflict-by-u-s-patent-office" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While I'm not enamored of the Bolt name, is anyone really likely to choose not to buy a car based on what it's called? Which reminds me of the SNL sketch that killed a long-running ad campaign for Flucker's (er, Smucker's) jam by pointing out the illogicality of the tag line:

Jane Curtin: . . . And so, with a name like Fluckers, it’s got to be good.

Chevy Chase: Hey, hold on a second, I have a jam here called Nose Hair. Now with a name like Nose Hair, you can imagine how good it must be. MMM MMM!!

Dan Aykroyd: Hold it a minute folks, but are you familiar with a jam called Death Camp? That’s Death Camp! Just look for the barbed wire on the label. With a name like Death Camp it must be so good it’s incredible! Just amazingly good jam!

John Belushi: Wait a minute . . . Dog Vomit, Monkey Pus. We offer you a choice of two of the most repulsive brand names of jams you’ve ever heard of. With names like these, this stuff has got to be terrific. We’re talking fabulous jam here!

Chevy Chase: Save your breath fella! Here’s a new jam we’ve just put out. It’s called Painful Rectal Itch. You’d have to go a long way to find a worse name for a jam. And good? MMM WAH! With a name like Painful Rectal Itch you gotta bet that it’s great . . .

Dan Aykroyd: Mangled Baby Ducks. That’s right, Mangled Baby Ducks! Picture a jam so good that you’d dare to call it Mangled Baby Ducks! Great Jam! It’s beautiful jam!

John Belushi: Wait a minute, wait a minute, this is it - 10,000 Nuns and Orphans.

Jane Curtin: 10,000 Nuns and Orphans? What’s so bad about that?

John Belushi: They were all eaten by rats! Oh, it’s so good! MMM!

Garrett Morris: Hold it, hold it everyone, your attention please, I have here a jam called, Oh God, [mumbles] Ick! Yecch!

Dan Aykroyd: It’s so good it’s sick making!

Chevy Chase: Oh, that’s gotta be great jam!

Jane Curtin: So if it’s great jam you’re after, try this one, the brand so disgusting you can’t say it on television. Ask for it by name!

For anyone considering leasing a Gen 2 Volt when it's available (or leasing some of the 2015 model year Gen 1s, which are still around)...

GM has brought its leasing function in-house. U.S. Bank and Ally are no longer the lease providers. This is bad news, since some of the recent lease quotes suggest GM Financial is not passing on any portion of the $7,500 tax credit to leasees, either as a cap cost reduction or residual inflation. This makes leasing a Volt very unattractive, especially if you qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit if you were to purchase the vehicle.


(Unlike NMAC, which passed on the $7,500 tax credit as a cap cost reduction, Ally and U.S. Bank passed on the tax credit as an inflation to the residual. GM Financial is not doing either.)

EPA rating of 53 electric range ...

http://autoweek.com/article/green-c...ected-heres-official-epa-figure#ixzz3hqzQoSuU



As others with the first-gen have done a bit better than what the EPA range was, I wonder what 'real world' range this 2nd gen turns out to be --- now if they do decide to make the mid-size SUV that would be perfect for me ... this isn't the best looking thing but you always trade off beauty for a bit more utility ...

redLEAF said:

EPA rating of 53 electric range ...

As others with the first-gen have done a bit better than what the EPA range was, I wonder what 'real world' range this 2nd gen turns out to be

Click to expand...

Easily 60 miles. I still regularly get 45 in my 3.5 year old 2011 which was rated at 35 miles!

As old LEAF owners have been pointing out this is better than many old LEAF cars.

redLEAF said:

EPA rating of 53 electric range ...

Click to expand...

Pretty impressive #. The gas mileage improvement is also welcome, as is the premium gas no longer being required.

If it only had a 6.x+ kW OBC, even as an option...