2016 Nissan LEAF Information - 30 kWh SV/SL, 24 kWh S

ishiyakazuo said:

GetOffYourGas said:

TonyWilliams said:

This appears to be Nissan's answer to the Kia Soul EV, but obviously they will have to compete against the GM Bolt in just 1.5 years (likely a 36-40kWh battery).

The Tesla Model 3 will likely be offered as a 50kWh car, with a real 200 mile range at 55mph on perfect days.

Click to expand...

It's funny, my thought was this is their answer to Volt 2.0. With 50 miles of range plus a range extender, the jump to an 84 mile Leaf is a bridge too far for many consumers.

Kia Soul is good competition, but with such low production rates set for 2016, I don't think that Nissan is losing any appreciable sales (or sleep) because of it. Now Leaf 2 will obviously have stiff competition with the Bolt and Model III around. So that's where I expect to see the *real* range increase (i.e. 150-200 miles).

Click to expand...

I suspect there's truth in both the Soul EV and the Volt 2 being factors. Nissan is simply seeing more competition and knows they need to step it up.

Click to expand...

Or maybe it's a way to insulate against a tank in 2016 sales once details of the leaf 2 start to come out like we saw with the volt. It may also be to increase residual values so that they can still offer attractive lease rates.

TonyWilliams said:

This appears to be Nissan's answer to the Kia Soul EV, but obviously they will have to compete against the GM Bolt in just 1.5 years (likely a 36-40kWh battery).

The Tesla Model 3 will likely be offered as a 50kWh car, with a real 200 mile range at 55mph on perfect days.

Click to expand...

Not that my crystal ball is any better than yours, but I'm guessing the base Model 3 will have a 60 kWh battery. Musk has said that he wants a minimum 200 mile "real world" range and 50 kWh won't achieve that.

We need over 200 miles range in the real world, not 200 miles in ‘air-conditioning off, driving on flat road’ mode.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised if the base Model 3 had a 70 kWh battery (with the S and X getting sizable increases over current options).

I don't expect the Gen2 LEAF to be competitive with the Model 3, if the latter car is released near the targeted price and specs.

dgpcolorado said:

TonyWilliams said:

This appears to be Nissan's answer to the Kia Soul EV, but obviously they will have to compete against the GM Bolt in just 1.5 years (likely a 36-40kWh battery).

The Tesla Model 3 will likely be offered as a 50kWh car, with a real 200 mile range at 55mph on perfect days.

Click to expand...

Not that my crystal ball is any better than yours, but I'm guessing the base Model 3 will have a 60 kWh battery. Musk has said that he wants a minimum 200 mile "real world" range and 50 kWh won't achieve that. I wouldn't be surprised if the base Model 3 had a 70 kWh battery (with the S and X getting sizable increases over current options).

We need over 200 miles range in the real world, not 200 miles in ‘air-conditioning off, driving on flat road’ mode.

Click to expand...

I don't expect the Gen2 LEAF to be competitive with the Model 3, if the latter car is released near the targeted price and specs.

Click to expand...

I would agree with you on the Model 3 probably getting the 60 kWh battery. After all the car will be smaller and steel vs aluminum so the weight savings won't be as dramatic as the foot print might suggest. It will also probably loose some of the more aerodynamic features (ie pop out door handles, air suspension). My guess is that the cda may not be much better than the model S even with a smaller profile. This would mean it would need roughly the same size battery to deliver the same range.

Also the more existing parts they use the easier it is to meet deadlines.

Although the leaf2 may not be competitive with the model 3 from a spec / enthusiast point of view they will probably be cross shopped by a lot of people.

minispeed said:

dgpcolorado said:

TonyWilliams said:

This appears to be Nissan's answer to the Kia Soul EV, but obviously they will have to compete against the GM Bolt in just 1.5 years (likely a 36-40kWh battery).

The Tesla Model 3 will likely be offered as a 50kWh car, with a real 200 mile range at 55mph on perfect days.

Click to expand...

Not that my crystal ball is any better than yours, but I'm guessing the base Model 3 will have a 60 kWh battery. Musk has said that he wants a minimum 200 mile "real world" range and 50 kWh won't achieve that. I wouldn't be surprised if the base Model 3 had a 70 kWh battery (with the S and X getting sizable increases over current options).

We need over 200 miles range in the real world, not 200 miles in ‘air-conditioning off, driving on flat road’ mode.

Click to expand...

I don't expect the Gen2 LEAF to be competitive with the Model 3, if the latter car is released near the targeted price and specs.

Click to expand...

I would agree with you on the Model 3 probably getting the 60 kWh battery. After all the car will be smaller and steel vs aluminum so the weight savings won't be as dramatic as the foot print might suggest. It will also probably loose some of the more aerodynamic features (ie pop out door handles, air suspension). My guess is that the cda may not be much better than the model S even with a smaller profile. This would mean it would need roughly the same size battery to deliver the same range.

Also the more existing parts they use the easier it is to meet deadlines.

Although the leaf2 may not be competitive with the model 3 from a spec / enthusiast point of view they will probably be cross shopped by a lot of people.

Click to expand...

The curb weight might be a heck of a lot lower than the Model S too... but who knows. Definitely if it exceeds 50kWh, that will be amazing if they can pull it off for LEAF money.

Remember when Tesla Model S was "300 mile" car for $49,900? Just not at the same time !!!

That's what Model 3 will be:

$35k - 40-50kWh battery (like RAV4 EV), range EPA 150, no Supercharger.

$55k - 55- 65kWh battery (like 208 -240 mile range Model S), AWD, Supercharger, EPA 200

$70k - P3-70D ++, bye bye BMW M3 !!!

BMW pricing:

$35k - base BMW 3 series

$40k - $50k - actual price paid with options

$62k - M3 without options

TonyWilliams said:

Remember when Tesla Model S was "300 mile" car for $49,900? Just not at the same time !!!

That's what Model 3 will be:

$35k - 40-50kWh battery (like RAV4 EV), range EPA 150, no Supercharger.

$55k - 55- 65kWh battery (like 208 -240 mile range Model S), AWD, Supercharger, EPA 200

$70k - P3-70D ++, bye bye BMW M3 !!!

Click to expand...

I disagree. The base model will have supercharging but won't have Dual Motors or will have significantly less HP with very small dual motors.

Not sure about the battery capacity vs price either but I'm more sure about the supercharging on all cars going forward. I think that will be a given even on Model 3.

TonyWilliams said:

Remember when Tesla Model S was "300 mile" car for $49,900? Just not at the same time !!!

That's what Model 3 will be:

$35k - 40-50kWh battery (like RAV4 EV), range EPA 150, no Supercharger.

$55k - 55- 65kWh battery (like 208 -240 mile range Model S), AWD, Supercharger, EPA 200

$70k - P3-70D ++, bye bye BMW M3 !!!

Click to expand...

No way.

Tesla's UPS is supercharger. All the cars they make from now on will be supercharger enabled - and will have long enough range to make supercharger network useable.

My crystal ball says

$40k - 60kWh. This occupies the now vacated S 60 kWh place.

bruddahmanmatt said:

2016 LEAF trim levels will break down as follows:

S 24kWh
SV 30kWh
SL 30kWh

Click to expand...

Very very interesting.

Kudos to Insideevs.com for predicting a longer range (I've to wonder whether they were guessing or heard something !).

Thankfully I just extended my lease - and will pick this up for a 2 year lease when it comes out.

Just all of you stop smoking weird stuff! You will never be able to put that 30 kWh battery in your '11-'13 Leaf gliders.

As few MNL members have said all along, Nissan is not in business of selling batteries. They're in business of pushing metal.

evnow said:

bruddahmanmatt said:

2016 LEAF trim levels will break down as follows:

S 24kWh
SV 30kWh
SL 30kWh

Click to expand...

Very very interesting.

Kudos to Insideevs.com for predicting a longer range (I've to wonder whether they were guessing or heard something !).

Thankfully I just extended my lease - and will pick this up for a 2 year lease when it comes out.

Click to expand...

My lease is up end of September, so hopefully I can buy it by then. If I know it's coming out by then, but can't buy it yet, I'm going to have to make some tough decisions. haha

pkulak said:

My lease is up end of September, so hopefully I can buy it by then. If I know it's coming out by then, but can't buy it yet, I'm going to have to make some tough decisions. haha

Click to expand...

Extend lease? Rent a car for a month (or three)? You'll come up with something!

To the one who says that nissan is in business of pushing metal:

A) Battery is mostly metal.

B) A low maintenance, reusable car is a marketing model for increasing sales and obtaining market dominance.



I truly believe that there will be up to 40kWh upgrades to all Leafs, because the form factor hasn't changed and Nissan has to support them for 10 more years. They aren't going to stock 50,000+ old battery packs to last 10 years. I can see them maybe stocking 5000 packs and then when they are about to use them up, reassessing and consider making more, especially if more people need them than they anticipated.

If Nisan sticks with the same 2P form factor for a while, they likely aren't going to give a replacement pack that only has 24kWh unless it is limited. You can't just take away capacity (volume) with higher energy dense cells unless the power density makes up for it. We are pretty much guaranteed a vastly better pack than the original with respect to longevity, it is the only thing that makes logical sense.

Nissan knows they owe it to us. Carl ghosn or whatever is friends with Elon and I'm sure he wouldn't let us down, right...? haha

hillzofvalp said:

To the one who says that nissan is in business of pushing metal:

A) Battery is mostly metal.

B) A low maintenance, reusable car is a marketing model for increasing sales and obtaining market dominance.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't sell the battery. They might charge more than we'd like for a battery upgrade, but they'll sell the battery. Think of it as a $6000 (or more for the 30kWh one?) car repair. Dealers love that stuff

Not only this, but remember that if Nissan offers an upgrade to those who are still under warranty with their current 24kWh pack, they can get out of the possibility of paying for the replacement if the consumer is needy and/or idiotic and buys the upgrade before 60k miles.

Yeah, I kinda was thinking that too, but didn't really want to go there. I might fall into the "idiotic" category on that one someday... my battery is definitely not going to lose 4 bars by 60mo./60k miles.

bruddahmanmatt said:

...
Don't ask, just read.

2016 LEAF trim levels will break down as follows:

S 24kWh
SV 30kWh
SL 30kWh


Aloha

Click to expand...

Thankyou

I assume the 24kWh remains the same cells (or minor update) Nissan does have at least 3 factories producing these.
The 30kWh is interesting.
Is it new higher voltage cells from AESC http://www.nec.com/en/press/201210/global_20121009_02.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if so, then Nissan has a path to outcompete Tesla's Gigfactory in terms of cost.
If the cells are just higher amperage cells from LG (ie NMC) does it represent Nissan walking away from prioritizing EVs similar to Renault? or is it short term 'gift' to the market so to maintain market share in the prelude to Gen 2?

same energy density, 2 differing suppliers, 3 differing motivations leading to 2 very different future directions.

Cant wait to see the car..

If they are going to keep selling the leaf S with the 24kwr pack, I don't see why they won't keep supplying them as replacements under warranty. Their rationale would actually be reasonable: no one at this point bought a Leaf with a 30kwh capacity.

LeftieBiker said:

If they are going to keep selling the leaf S with the 24kwr pack, I don't see why they won't keep supplying them as replacements under warranty. Their rationale would actually be reasonable: no one at this point bought a Leaf with a 30kwh capacity.

Click to expand...

Even more simple
Crash testing of earlier models was only performed with a Manganese Spinel type li ion battery.

ILETRIC said:

Just all of you stop smoking weird stuff! You will never be able to put that 30 kWh battery in your '11-'13 Leaf gliders.

Click to expand...

My guess:

2016 S trim getting 2015 format 24kWh battery, modularly compatible with 2011-2016 LEAFs.
2016 SV and SL getting 2017.5 format 30kWh battery, likely different module format, which can be restacked and arranged to fit the new design.

This will allow Nissan to fulfill its obligations to the battery warranty without dedicating assembly to warranty claims. They can drop these batteries into S trim.