fooljoe
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:33 am
Delivery Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Seal Beach, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 1:38 am

It blows my mind how this "all or nothing" warranty has been implemented. It makes no sense that someone that drops the 9th bar at 61k miles gets $0 while another owner with an identically defective battery but a few thousand miles less on the odometer gets a $6k battery. It's especially irksome given that prorated warranties like we have with tires are very much a thing - there's plenty of precedent for a warranty that would've actually made sense.

Leafer77, I gotta say you really blew it here. If you monitored your SOH you would've known how close you were to dropping that bar and could've just stopped driving the car and let time and heat do their thing; you had plenty of time to spare. You say you couldn't do that in good conscience - well then you really can't complain (well ok you can complain that the warranty's stupid, but don't act surprised that Nissan wouldn't give you a new battery.) The rules of the game are ridiculous, but they are the rules. Nissan doesn't play the game with any conscience, so why should you?

That said, I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. Maybe there's still some sort of legal argument to be made (ask a lawyer maybe?), but I would imagine that if you didn't opt out you're pretty much screwed. One thing I don't quite grasp about that though - if you "opted in" (i.e. did nothing) but didn't receive ANYTHING as a benefit, what did you really opt in for? In most class action lawsuits you get a few dollars or something, but in this case there's a new warranty put in place for everybody, regardless of whether they joined the class, so isn't opting in meaningless? (Again we need a lawyer to chime in.)

Aside from the legal fight (which is most likely a loser), I wonder if there might be some hope of qualifying for the 8 year / 100k mile warranty. At some point that defective battery is going to degrade so much as to be completely useless, and that could very well occur before 100k miles. Does anyone have any idea what exactly would trigger that warranty? Instead of just trading the car in, I'd first of course drive it as long as it can get you to work, but when you simply can't use it anymore I'd go out and buy or lease another EV as Tony suggests; but maybe keep this one around, just in case.
RavCharge.com | 2012 Rav4-EV | 2011 Leaf SL w/QC batt replaced 11/20/15 | Clipper Creek CS-60 | EVSEupgraded 2013 Leaf EVSE | 3.84kw PV

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 3:43 am

fooljoe wrote:...The rules of the game are ridiculous, but they are the rules. Nissan doesn't play the game with any conscience, so why should you?...
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Large international corporations do not understand the meaning of the word conscience :o
When the Disney CEO says their ONLY goal is to make profit, do you think any large multi-national company has conscience :?: :?: :?:

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

smkettner
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 8:20 am

fooljoe wrote:
cwerdna wrote: (e.g. send the car off for a thorough baking in say Vegas or Phoenix at 100% charge)
Who's in for a "group buy" to hire a car carrier to ship our 2011s to Death Valley for the summer? :lol: I laugh now but as June 2016 creeps closer and closer and I'm still sitting at 9 bars the option becomes more and more appealing...
Group buy? With $6,000 on the line it should not be hard to rent a car hauler and an outdoor storage spot.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

Valdemar
Posts: 2627
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 8:33 am

Anyone thought about a shaming web site filled with stories like the OP? Who knows it may help, but more likely Nissan will just let its lawyers out to shut it down.
Last edited by Valdemar on Sat May 30, 2015 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 8:34 am

Repost from 30 kWh thread.
More relevant here.
TimLee wrote:
jhm614 wrote:Remember, not everyone with a 2011 got screwed. ...
Just because Nissan took care of maybe 20% of people with a 2011 LEAF with a non-prorated capacity warranty grossly short of what they stated when they marketed the vehicle sure doesn't seem like much to praise.

People like leafer77 that lost four bars a couple of thousand miles too late, and lots of people next year that lose the fourth bar a few months too late don't see much to praise.

Even if I do get a capacity warranty replacement, I will honestly tell everyone that Nissan sold a defective product and that they did not properly support what they sold.

Their only real support is the supposedly subsidized battery replacement price.
The rest has been just bad behaviour.
That is the truth everyone should be telling about Nissan.
TimLee wrote:
desiv wrote:...
And it's great that you will tell your truth, and others will tell their truth.
But no one really should tell only one side of the truth..
I think it's good for people to know ALL the truth..
...
I concur fully.
I always attempt to tell the full story in whatever time is available.

In many circumstances that is short and limited to the LEAF is a great vehicle best I ever owned, that Nissan did a great thing in taking a chance and building it for which they are to be commended, but the battery is defective and Nissan unfortunately failed to stand behind the product properly.

I hope the new chemistry resolves the problem, and a 30 kWh pack hopefully in the same battery containment is encouraging.
Maybe they will will offer it for older LEAFs at some point.
But most of their limited comment on the issue has indicated that is somewhat unlikely.
Last edited by TimLee on Sat May 30, 2015 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

minispeed
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Ancaster, ON

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 8:38 am

Sorry if someone else said this in 5 pages of posts already but have you brought up the fact (first test it in your own car) that most leafs with 16 in 205 55 16 put about 2.5% more miles on the odo than you actually travel?

Get a GPS, use mile markers and do a test. If that's true, and if you brought the car to a dealer to document the loss at the 6100 then you actually only drove 59658.

If your ODO is off by less than 2% and or you took it to the dealer a few hundred miles after it dropped you might not have anything.

It might not get you a full warrantee, and you may need to get a lawyer involved but it might get you some help.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

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TomT
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Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 8:51 am

Remember GE's motto: "Profit is our more important product!" :lol:
It equally applies to Nissan...
TimLee wrote:When the Disney CEO says their ONLY goal is to make profit, do you think any large multi-national company has conscience :?: :?: :?:
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 9:12 am

smkettner wrote:
fooljoe wrote:
cwerdna wrote: (e.g. send the car off for a thorough baking in say Vegas or Phoenix at 100% charge)
Who's in for a "group buy" to hire a car carrier to ship our 2011s to Death Valley for the summer? :lol: I laugh now but as June 2016 creeps closer and closer and I'm still sitting at 9 bars the option becomes more and more appealing...
Group buy? With $6,000 on the line it should not be hard to rent a car hauler and an outdoor storage spot.
I remind you that exposure to very high ambient temperatures (120 f for 24 hours) will void ALL LEAF battery warrantees.

So if you are trying to intentionally damage your battery by exposing it to high temperatures in order to get Nissan to replace it, it's probably not a good idea to publically announce your intentions...

So far (AFAIK) Nissan has not refused any customers replacement batteries on these grounds, even though it's quite possible some LEAFs, parked in very hot climates, in even hotter garages, experienced ambient temperatures high enough to void the battery warrantee.
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 9:45 am

Back to the OP:
="Leafer77" ...Everyday, when I drive that 30 mile commute to work or home, I get a Low Battery warning. It feels like I'm driving a gas vehicle that has one gallon in the tank. The best way to describe my situation, it feels like I'm constantly running on empty...
Have you actually tested your range all the way to ~turtle recently?

You might be surprised by how many "miles" are still down there, and be able to continue commuting a while longer without so much range anxiety, until you can resolve your problem.

The actual (range-test-determined) capacity below LBW has increased over time in my LEAF, and was already up to ~28% of my ("100% to turtle) total available capacity as of last July ,when I only had ~28k miles on my LEAF.

That meant I actually drove 51.8 miles (relatively slowly, and benefitting from ~1,600 ft. net Descent) after I got the LBW.
="Leafer77" I took my Nissan Leaf to the Mossy Nissan Escondido Dealership to be evaluated for a battery replacement. Meanwhile, I opened a case with Nissan NA, which they rejected due to my vehicle being outside the 60,000 mile Battery Capacity Warranty. Arbitration got me nowhere through the BBB with Nissan. Mossy Nissan Escondido quoted me $6000 for a replacement battery, for a car that I'm still making payments on.
Well, this is one of the reasons I stayed out of the class action.

If you do want to take the legal route, you might ask your attorney if your class action status also precludes you from suing for initial defect, as apposed to capacity loss over time.

If I do ever need to take legal action against Nissan RE my OE battery, I would probably base my claim on the fact that my 2011 LEAF never had 24 kWh to begin with (see AVTA tests of actual 2011 LEAF battery capacity) rather than due to excessive capacity loss over time.

I believe this is probably a legitimate claim for all 2011 LEAF owners, which Nissan has adroitly deflected by directing the discussion on MNL and elsewhere to "rapid degradation" affecting only a relatively few Nissan owners living in hot climates, rather than a widespread initial defect (<24 kWh of initial capacity) in the 2011 batteries, which could have resulted in compensation from a class action lawsuit for all 2011 LEAF owners.
no condition is permanent

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Sat May 30, 2015 10:54 am

Where did the LEAF sales contract document that the vehicle had a 24 kWh battery?

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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