Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

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It blows my mind how this "all or nothing" warranty has been implemented. It makes no sense that someone that drops the 9th bar at 61k miles gets $0 while another owner with an identically defective battery but a few thousand miles less on the odometer gets a $6k battery. It's especially irksome given that prorated warranties like we have with tires are very much a thing - there's plenty of precedent for a warranty that would've actually made sense.

Leafer77, I gotta say you really blew it here. If you monitored your SOH you would've known how close you were to dropping that bar and could've just stopped driving the car and let time and heat do their thing; you had plenty of time to spare. You say you couldn't do that in good conscience - well then you really can't complain (well ok you can complain that the warranty's stupid, but don't act surprised that Nissan wouldn't give you a new battery.) The rules of the game are ridiculous, but they are the rules. Nissan doesn't play the game with any conscience, so why should you?

That said, I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. Maybe there's still some sort of legal argument to be made (ask a lawyer maybe?), but I would imagine that if you didn't opt out you're pretty much screwed. One thing I don't quite grasp about that though - if you "opted in" (i.e. did nothing) but didn't receive ANYTHING as a benefit, what did you really opt in for? In most class action lawsuits you get a few dollars or something, but in this case there's a new warranty put in place for everybody, regardless of whether they joined the class, so isn't opting in meaningless? (Again we need a lawyer to chime in.)

Aside from the legal fight (which is most likely a loser), I wonder if there might be some hope of qualifying for the 8 year / 100k mile warranty. At some point that defective battery is going to degrade so much as to be completely useless, and that could very well occur before 100k miles. Does anyone have any idea what exactly would trigger that warranty? Instead of just trading the car in, I'd first of course drive it as long as it can get you to work, but when you simply can't use it anymore I'd go out and buy or lease another EV as Tony suggests; but maybe keep this one around, just in case.
 
fooljoe said:
...The rules of the game are ridiculous, but they are the rules. Nissan doesn't play the game with any conscience, so why should you?...
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Large international corporations do not understand the meaning of the word conscience :eek:
When the Disney CEO says their ONLY goal is to make profit, do you think any large multi-national company has conscience :?: :?: :?:
 
fooljoe said:
cwerdna said:
(e.g. send the car off for a thorough baking in say Vegas or Phoenix at 100% charge)
Who's in for a "group buy" to hire a car carrier to ship our 2011s to Death Valley for the summer? :lol: I laugh now but as June 2016 creeps closer and closer and I'm still sitting at 9 bars the option becomes more and more appealing...
Group buy? With $6,000 on the line it should not be hard to rent a car hauler and an outdoor storage spot.
 
Anyone thought about a shaming web site filled with stories like the OP? Who knows it may help, but more likely Nissan will just let its lawyers out to shut it down.
 
Repost from 30 kWh thread.
More relevant here.

TimLee said:
jhm614 said:
Remember, not everyone with a 2011 got screwed. ...
Just because Nissan took care of maybe 20% of people with a 2011 LEAF with a non-prorated capacity warranty grossly short of what they stated when they marketed the vehicle sure doesn't seem like much to praise.

People like leafer77 that lost four bars a couple of thousand miles too late, and lots of people next year that lose the fourth bar a few months too late don't see much to praise.

Even if I do get a capacity warranty replacement, I will honestly tell everyone that Nissan sold a defective product and that they did not properly support what they sold.

Their only real support is the supposedly subsidized battery replacement price.
The rest has been just bad behaviour.
That is the truth everyone should be telling about Nissan.


TimLee said:
desiv said:
...
And it's great that you will tell your truth, and others will tell their truth.
But no one really should tell only one side of the truth..
I think it's good for people to know ALL the truth..
...
I concur fully.
I always attempt to tell the full story in whatever time is available.

In many circumstances that is short and limited to the LEAF is a great vehicle best I ever owned, that Nissan did a great thing in taking a chance and building it for which they are to be commended, but the battery is defective and Nissan unfortunately failed to stand behind the product properly.

I hope the new chemistry resolves the problem, and a 30 kWh pack hopefully in the same battery containment is encouraging.
Maybe they will will offer it for older LEAFs at some point.
But most of their limited comment on the issue has indicated that is somewhat unlikely.
 
Sorry if someone else said this in 5 pages of posts already but have you brought up the fact (first test it in your own car) that most leafs with 16 in 205 55 16 put about 2.5% more miles on the odo than you actually travel?

Get a GPS, use mile markers and do a test. If that's true, and if you brought the car to a dealer to document the loss at the 6100 then you actually only drove 59658.

If your ODO is off by less than 2% and or you took it to the dealer a few hundred miles after it dropped you might not have anything.

It might not get you a full warrantee, and you may need to get a lawyer involved but it might get you some help.
 
Remember GE's motto: "Profit is our more important product!" :lol:
It equally applies to Nissan...

TimLee said:
When the Disney CEO says their ONLY goal is to make profit, do you think any large multi-national company has conscience :?: :?: :?:
 
smkettner said:
fooljoe said:
cwerdna said:
(e.g. send the car off for a thorough baking in say Vegas or Phoenix at 100% charge)
Who's in for a "group buy" to hire a car carrier to ship our 2011s to Death Valley for the summer? :lol: I laugh now but as June 2016 creeps closer and closer and I'm still sitting at 9 bars the option becomes more and more appealing...
Group buy? With $6,000 on the line it should not be hard to rent a car hauler and an outdoor storage spot.
I remind you that exposure to very high ambient temperatures (120 f for 24 hours) will void ALL LEAF battery warrantees.

So if you are trying to intentionally damage your battery by exposing it to high temperatures in order to get Nissan to replace it, it's probably not a good idea to publically announce your intentions...

So far (AFAIK) Nissan has not refused any customers replacement batteries on these grounds, even though it's quite possible some LEAFs, parked in very hot climates, in even hotter garages, experienced ambient temperatures high enough to void the battery warrantee.
 
Back to the OP:

="Leafer77" ...Everyday, when I drive that 30 mile commute to work or home, I get a Low Battery warning. It feels like I'm driving a gas vehicle that has one gallon in the tank. The best way to describe my situation, it feels like I'm constantly running on empty...
Have you actually tested your range all the way to ~turtle recently?

You might be surprised by how many "miles" are still down there, and be able to continue commuting a while longer without so much range anxiety, until you can resolve your problem.

The actual (range-test-determined) capacity below LBW has increased over time in my LEAF, and was already up to ~28% of my ("100% to turtle) total available capacity as of last July ,when I only had ~28k miles on my LEAF.

That meant I actually drove 51.8 miles (relatively slowly, and benefitting from ~1,600 ft. net Descent) after I got the LBW.

="Leafer77" I took my Nissan Leaf to the Mossy Nissan Escondido Dealership to be evaluated for a battery replacement. Meanwhile, I opened a case with Nissan NA, which they rejected due to my vehicle being outside the 60,000 mile Battery Capacity Warranty. Arbitration got me nowhere through the BBB with Nissan. Mossy Nissan Escondido quoted me $6000 for a replacement battery, for a car that I'm still making payments on.
Well, this is one of the reasons I stayed out of the class action.

If you do want to take the legal route, you might ask your attorney if your class action status also precludes you from suing for initial defect, as apposed to capacity loss over time.

If I do ever need to take legal action against Nissan RE my OE battery, I would probably base my claim on the fact that my 2011 LEAF never had 24 kWh to begin with (see AVTA tests of actual 2011 LEAF battery capacity) rather than due to excessive capacity loss over time.

I believe this is probably a legitimate claim for all 2011 LEAF owners, which Nissan has adroitly deflected by directing the discussion on MNL and elsewhere to "rapid degradation" affecting only a relatively few Nissan owners living in hot climates, rather than a widespread initial defect (<24 kWh of initial capacity) in the 2011 batteries, which could have resulted in compensation from a class action lawsuit for all 2011 LEAF owners.
 
edatoakrun said:
I remind you that exposure to very high ambient temperatures (120 f for 24 hours) will void ALL LEAF battery warrantees.
I'm not aware of a single location on earth, at least in the out-of-doors, that sustains 120°F for entire 24 hour periods. How could leaving a vehicle parked in a legal parking spot can be construed as abuse, unless perhaps the battery is left fully charged for a long time or allowed to drain to dead empty? If a vehicle cannot even take being parked somewhere, then that is evidence of a defect! That said, I'd rather focus on earning another $6000 through my own labor than on trying to beat Nissan at their game.
 
TimLee said:
Where did the LEAF sales contract document that the vehicle had a 24 kWh battery?
It didn't.

Nissan, AFAIK, has never publically stated to owners the initial capacity of any MY LEAF, how much different packs vary in capacity between different LEAFs, and how much of that total capacity is available to owners at any temperature, either when manufactured, or when delivered.

Nissan has specified 24 kWh to numerous public agencies, such as the EPA.

Actual initial kWh capacity of four 2012 LEAF batteries, when tested by the procedures used by AVTA, all fell short of 24 kWh:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_EOT.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Full report here:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/FastChargeEffects.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

abasile said:
edatoakrun said:
I remind you that exposure to very high ambient temperatures (120 f for 24 hours) will void ALL LEAF battery warrantees.

I'm not aware of a single location on earth, at least in the out-of-doors, that sustains 120°F for entire 24 hour periods....
But 120F temperatures for 24 hours could be exceeded indoors, even unintentionally, such as during a heat wave in a Phoenix garage with significant heat sources, such as windows exposed to the sun, heat-generating appliances, or another BEV parked inside with ATM, producing a lot of BTU.

Probably pretty easy to exceed 120F for 24 hours, in lots of other ways if that is your intent...
 
Hi
Maybe a 2013 junk yard battery would save some money if there is no warranty claim.

I searched on car-part.com and found a 2013 battery for $2755. So about half of a new battery. You would be taking a chance, but it would save some money. Of course you still need labor and the few adapter parts.


2013
Battery
Nissan Leaf (lithium ION battery pack) A $F05543 $2755.13 LKQ Foster Auto Parts USA-OR(Portland) E-mail 1-888-578-5548
 
hugenbd said:
Hi
Maybe a 2013 junk yard battery would save some money if there is no warranty claim.

I searched on car-part.com and found a 2013 battery for $2755. So about half of a new battery. You would be taking a chance, but it would save some money. Of course you still need labor and the few adapter parts.


2013
Battery
Nissan Leaf (lithium ION battery pack) A $F05543 $2755.13 LKQ Foster Auto Parts USA-OR(Portland) E-mail 1-888-578-5548

Also your pack will have some value too, maybe half that would be a good guess.
 
Has anyone successfully paired a used pack with the car, even at a dealership? I don't think so. Nissan has to provide a special card for this process and its unclear if they would be open to this, I'd bet they wouldn't be.
 
TimLee said:
fooljoe said:
...The rules of the game are ridiculous, but they are the rules. Nissan doesn't play the game with any conscience, so why should you?...
Large international corporations do not understand the meaning of the word conscience :eek:
A really good (and loonnng) documentary, spelling this out in excruciating detail, now viewable on YouTube in its entirety: The Corporation.

And veering just a bit more off-topic, this classic clip by the YesMen about Dow/Union Carbide taking responsibility for the Bhopal disaster (1984) is worth watching. So much so that I'm going to embed it:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiWlvBro9eI[/youtube]
 
Valdemar said:
Has anyone successfully paired a used pack with the car, even at a dealership? I don't think so. Nissan has to provide a special card for this process and its unclear if they would be open to this, I'd bet they wouldn't be.


Really? I thought they had to let independent mechanics work on the car? If they won't allow this it makes junk yard leafs and used battery packs worth even less than the $2700 I mentioned above. Also makes the car that much less attractive as a used vehicle. Leaving the packs to be harvested for other uses. I.E. battery backup power, DIY EV's.
 
Heading toward empty myself. I am slightly tempted to trade in my '11 LEAF for a 2016, but I should be able to get by until the 200 mile (affordable) cars come out in a couple years. Near term I can limp between charge stations for my needs, but will want to have a go anywhere EV in about 5 years. I plan to do some traveling.
 
hugenbd said:
Valdemar said:
Has anyone successfully paired a used pack with the car, even at a dealership? I don't think so. Nissan has to provide a special card for this process and its unclear if they would be open to this, I'd bet they wouldn't be.


Really? I thought they had to let independent mechanics work on the car? If they won't allow this it makes junk yard leafs and used battery packs worth even less than the $2700 I mentioned above. Also makes the car that much less attractive as a used vehicle. Leaving the packs to be harvested for other uses. I.E. battery backup power, DIY EV's.

Yup. There might be a solution at some point. Nissan might be willing to produce a pairing card too, but I don't think anyone actually tried to request one, and then you'd still need to visit a dealer for the pairing. The car will drive without pairing in a reduced power mode, think 30mph max. AFAIK today the only way to put a battery from junkyard into your car as a DIY project is to open it up and swap the battery controllers, but it is unclear if this will work between 2011 and later packs. Swapping modules is another option, but again compatibility may be an issue.
 
Several comments and questions that I'm replying to:

"Edit: 40 miles seems to be too low for a recent 4 bar loss. What speed are you driving at, and do you have any significant climbs on your commute?"

I drive between 65 - 70 MPH. On an incline on the 15S/15N, near Scripps Ranch I got as low as 55MPH and as high as 70MPH going down the hill near the Escondido Mall. These are not huge elevation changes in my opinion, and don't go on for long. My commute is from San Marcos, Twin Oaks Valley Parkway and Genessee. Maybe check Google Map's for details on the route and elevation.

"You didn't do your homework. The 106 city and 92 highway are (pretty useless) MPGe, NOT city and highway mile ranges! The range rating was 73 miles. See http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-nissa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... -released/ and your original sticker, if you have it still. You can find many more sticker pics via https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... %20sticker. Confirmation of numbers at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... s&id=30979."

When I was sold the car, I was given the wrong Sticker, which I still have. It was for a 2011 QX65 2WD. I received the Leaf Sticker around 3-5 days after I purchased the car. I was mostly going off the marketing information I was previously given. All the documents that I received and other online information was suggesting around 100 miles at the time. I have copies of the marketing pamplets and documents. It also didn't help at the time that the salesman pressured me on of the fact that other people had put their deposits down already and would happily buy the car. Remember, this was back in May 2011.

"From the range chart, (looking at the 60-66% capacity version), if you average 4.3 miles/kWh, you should be able to go 56 miles. Also, see results of viewtopic.php?p=228326, in particular Blue494, that had 8 capacity bars."

I hit 8 bars back in January and I'm now at just over 67,000 miles. I'm guessing that I'm getting closer to 7 bars? I don't have any special tools to measure my current capacity, but before I get off the Highway for my exit to Genessee (see the location information above) I get a Low Battery Warning.

"Aside from the legal fight (which is most likely a loser), I wonder if there might be some hope of qualifying for the 8 year / 100k mile warranty. At some point that defective battery is going to degrade so much as to be completely useless, and that could very well occur before 100k miles. Does anyone have any idea what exactly would trigger that warranty?"

In my Arbritation I argued this exact point. That my battery is defective, and the defect should be covered in the 8 year / 100k mile warranty.

"Anyone thought about a shaming web site filled with stories like the OP?"

I am all for participating in something like this. I'd even be willing to post a video of my commute or anything to help.

"Get a GPS, use mile markers and do a test. If that's true, and if you brought the car to a dealer to document the loss at the 6100 then you actually only drove 59658."

This is interesting to consider. I wonder if its worked for anyone else with warranty's that were about to expire. I'll do some Searches, but let me know if you have any specific cases.

"Have you actually tested your range all the way to ~turtle recently?"

No, I haven't done this but I'm getting close to VLBW at times. Seems like some days I don't get a "full charge", even though it appears to complete charging. I'm guessing I'll be getting to Turtle Mode just in time for Christmas or Easter, based on the rate that I'm at. I'll post more information as I get closer. If I put in the Nav, about going further destinations, I get the ominious message that I won't make it. Its not worth the hassle or risk to me at that point.
 
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