Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

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cwerdna said:
Pretty impressive ... If it only had a 6.x+ kW OBC, even as an option...
GM focused on cost. The gen2 Volt is for folks who need a gasoline engine; once you have that, then charging mostly overnight is all you need; L2 at 3.6kw if needed. No big deal if the battery runs out. With the larger battery, most owners will get >75% EV; many much higher. The downside is that paid public L2 charging costs too much to make sense on the Volt.
 
BernieTx said:
cwerdna said:
Pretty impressive ... If it only had a 6.x+ kW OBC, even as an option...
GM focused on cost. The gen2 Volt is for folks who need a gasoline engine; once you have that, then charging mostly overnight is all you need; L2 at 3.6kw if needed. No big deal if the battery runs out. With the larger battery, most owners will get >75% EV; many much higher. The downside is that paid public L2 charging costs too much to make sense on the Volt.

A new Volt could now more easily be a family's 'only' car and as long as the daily commute was say 60 miles or less; M-F would be gas free so perhaps much higher than the > 75%. The 'two-cars-in one' even more so than the 1st gen. With resale values being so poor on all of the first gen EV's and PHEV's I wonder what positive effect this might have for Gen 2 owner's as well. Lastly, it will still qualify for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit (this article states Chevy has sold about 75,000 so would assume they still have about 125,000 to go before it runs out) so that's welcome with the expected base price reduction as well

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/05/the-2016-chevy-volt-will-cost-26495.html
 
redLEAF said:
A new Volt could now more easily be a family's 'only' car and as long as the daily commute was say 60 miles or less; M-F would be gas free so perhaps much higher than the > 75%. The 'two-cars-in one' even more so than the 1st gen. With resale values being so poor on all of the first gen EV's and PHEV's I wonder what positive effect this might have for Gen 2 owner's as well. Lastly, it will still qualify for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit (this article states Chevy has sold about 75,000 so would assume they still have about 125,000 to go before it runs out) so that's welcome with the expected base price reduction as well
http://www.carscoops.com/2015/05/the-2016-chevy-volt-will-cost-26495.html

The gen1 Volt has better resale value than the gen1 Leaf, if you look at what's out there on autotrader or something like that. They both take a pretty big hit due to the rebate, and due to new models coming out later this year. I think GM has a winner with the gen2 Volt When I talk to people about the Volt running equally well on gasoline and on battery, and most of my driving never even using the ICE, the reaction I get is that a lot of folks instant think that's a good idea, instead of only having a battery. Also, GM's battery TMS ensures the battery is immune to hot weather, with the battery expected to have 85-90% capacity at 150,000 miles. The Volt is slowly getting more popular, just based on current owners who are still excited about it. For this year, our gen1 Volt is 78% electric. Most of the gas miles are due to weekend trips; at home, most of our local miles are electric especially now that I have an L2 charger at home.
 
BernieTx said:
cwerdna said:
Pretty impressive ... If it only had a 6.x+ kW OBC, even as an option...
GM focused on cost. The gen2 Volt is for folks who need a gasoline engine; once you have that, then charging mostly overnight is all you need; L2 at 3.6kw if needed. No big deal if the battery runs out. With the larger battery, most owners will get >75% EV; many much higher. The downside is that paid public L2 charging costs too much to make sense on the Volt.
Sure, but I almost never charge my Leaf overnight.

Instead, most of my charging is at work (for free) and sometimes free public L2s. As I said at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430047#p430047 and many times elsewhere (but fixed a typo):
"Having the 6 kW OBC means I charge much faster at work and tie up a space for less time AND can start charging much later, when many people are done or have gone home. It also means my opportunity charging (if I go to work on the way home from somewhere) or at free 30 amp L2 EVSEs is MUCH faster."

Having the slow OBC means those cars are hogging the spots a lot longer than they need to be.

Volts and Spark EVs sometimes use that same free public charging L2 charging (w/30 amp EVSEs) and thus are tying up a handle much longer than necessary.
 
cwerdna said:
BernieTx said:
....The gen2 Volt is for folks who need a gasoline engine; once you have that, then charging mostly overnight...
Sure, but I almost never charge my Leaf overnight... most of my charging is at work (for free) and sometimes free public L2s.
The Volt isn't for everyone. The two requirements for buying a Volt are (1) you need a gasoline engine, and (2), you charge overnight. GM isn't convinced that a high enough percentage of buyers will pay enough extra for 6.x L2 charging. 60% of Volt buyers only charge at 120v, and most of the remaining buyers are ok with 15A L2 charging. If only a small percentage of buyers are willing to pay extra to charge at 6.xKW L2, than adding the option doesn't cover development and product costs, even if those buyers are willing to pay an extra $1000/car... sorry; the gen2 Volt was all about returning to profitability :(
 
BernieTx said:
60% of Volt buyers only charge at 120v, and most of the remaining buyers are ok with 15A L2 charging. If only a small percentage of buyers are willing to pay extra to charge at 6.xKW L2, than adding the option doesn't cover development and product costs, even if those buyers are willing to pay an extra $1000/car... sorry; the gen2 Volt was all about returning to profitability :(
Maybe they should make it standard then.

Many other EVs only come w/6+ kW OBCs in the first place, no wimpy 3.x kW OBC even as a choice. Even the Accord PHEV came w/a 6.6 kW OBC. All Tesla powered ones from Model S onwards (e.g. Model S, Rav4 EV and Merc B-Class ED) all come w/10 kW OBC. Model S can have a 2nd 10 kW OBC installed.

As for those people remaining people being "ok" with it, perhaps many don't know what they're missing? I just laugh/shake my head whenever I start a session for a Volt and see it only pulling ~3.1 kW out of the wall (on 208 volt L2 EVSEs) and seeing how long it takes to take on ~10 kWh vs. my Leaf.
 
BernieTx said:
cwerdna said:
BernieTx said:
... sorry; the gen2 Volt was all about returning to profitability :(
Maybe they should make it standard then.
The focus was on reducing costs.

It is really unfortunate. They could at least make it an option. I suspect their cost difference between the low and higher powered charger would be several hundred dollars and many would gladly pay it as in many cases a higher powered charger is all that it's needed to be 100% electric.
 
In 4 1/2 years, I can easily count on two hands of fingers when 6.0 Kw charging would have made any difference to me... Sure it is nice, but for many (such as myself), it makes very little practical difference...

cwerdna said:
As for those people remaining people being "ok" with it, perhaps many don't know what they're missing?
 
IMO, there is no legitimate reason for any BEV/PHEV with an available capacity of ~ten kWh or more to not give customers the option of a DC port.

The only logical explanation why any BEV/PHEV manufacturer would not make this option available to its customers, is that that company wants to pick up a few million more sucker sales, by delaying the inevitable write-off of their large investments in the development and production of ICEVs and PHEVs.
 
It curious that GM sticks with the lower rated 3.3 KW L2 charging. If you're going to have a L2 charger, the cost of the hardware between a 3.3 and 6.6 KW wouldn't be very much. I thought the reason might be the fact that GM has been very conservative with the way they treat the battery, but that doesn't make much sense when you consider that they allow the ICE to quick charge the battery at a much higher rate (14 miles in 10 minutes works out to around 28 KW) when Mountain Mode is selected. Regen is even higher, but for a shorter period.

Perhaps they worry that daily charging at 6.6 KW has some negative impact over 3.3 KW, and for most owners really wouldn't be necessary. At least the degradation resulting from 6.6 KW charging would not offset the value of being able to occasionally charge at the higher rate. They've done a lot of testing on their batterys, I wish they would explain why they choose to only offer the lower charge rate when the higher rate wouldn't cost them much more.
 
While I can see edge case benefits from having a faster L2 OBC on the Volt (two hours at a movie gets you to full charge), as a practical matter I don't think it's a big deal. If you're pushed for time, you're just going to use a little gas and be done with it. The larger capacity will eliminate the need for most charging away from home in any case - how often do you go to a movie more than 25 miles away from home?

So, while I'd like to have the option, I'd rather they keep the base price of the car down. The hard core who want to be all-electric will soon have the option of more reasonable range 'affordable' BEVs, while the Volt remains a car the masses can use as their sole car with minimal need to think about it (particularly with L1 charging). Of course, with current gas prices, it makes little or no sense to go the PEV route for financial reasons, especially in states where incentives have been rolled back or eliminated.

The Gen. 2 Volt's battery is a bit big for L1-only overnight charging, especially off-peak, and I still wish they'd offered a version of the car with about half as much battery, to lower the price even further. 20 miles EPA AER will probably cover about 50% of the population - daily per driver VMT (2009 data) was 28.97 miles, and average vehicle trip length 9.72 miles. See http://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf

QC is another matter - I can see no reason whatsoever to offer it, when the charge rate would have to taper almost immediately and thus make it essentially identical to faster L2.
 
TomT said:
In 4 1/2 years, I can easily count on two hands of fingers when 6.0 Kw charging would have made any difference to me... Sure it is nice, but for many (such as myself), it makes very little practical difference...

cwerdna said:
As for those people remaining people being "ok" with it, perhaps many don't know what they're missing?
Whereas for me, just the opposite until a few weeks ago. It mattered almost every single weekday for me and sometimes on weekends too for over 2 years now. I already posted why.

As of a few weeks ago, after a building move, it currently doesn't matter on most days now. I'm now mostly charging at L1 at work now since there's only 1 charging station (dual J1772 handles) near my new building. And, it's outdoors, under trees. There are many stations planned near my new building but they won't be online until almost 2 months later.

So, I keep my Leaf in the underground garage of the previous building to keep it out of the heat and L1 charge instead of taking or blocking a much more valuable L2 spot. It takes me awhile to get between the new building and old. Don't have time for back and forth during work time to reposition my car.
 
cwerdna said:
TomT said:
In 4 1/2 years, I can easily count on two hands of fingers when 6.0 Kw charging would have made any difference to me... Sure it is nice, but for many (such as myself), it makes very little practical difference.../quote]

Whereas for me, just the opposite...

Why would buyers needing 6.X L2 charging buy a Volt instead of an EV? EV's have more battery range, weight less (no engine), they're less expensive, and they don't have "fuel maintenance" mode required to keep the gasoline age under 12 months,... You already own a Leaf; do you have a need for a gasoline engine?
 
Because many have only one car and need it to do double duty, or they they have two but frequently need to go beyond EV-only range... There are a number of good reasons why people want PHEVs instead... The Volt is basically a PHEV on super steroids...

BernieTx said:
Why would buyers needing 6.X L2 charging buy a Volt instead of an EV?
 
TomT said:
Because many have only one car and need it to do double duty, or they they have two but frequently need to go beyond EV-only range... There are a number of good reasons why people want PHEVs instead... The Volt is basically a PHEV on super steroids...

BernieTx said:
Why would buyers needing 6.X L2 charging buy a Volt instead of an EV?

Yes of course. There are several posters advocating 6.x L2 as a requirement; but not a single one of them has expressed a need for a gasoline engine. So I question why they would buy a Volt even if 6.x L2 was offered as an option.

I'm also curious as to whether the 6.x L2 requirement crowd has any interest in the BMW i3 rex, with its 70mile EV range, DC fast charging, and 7.2kw L2. But it has a crippled ICE, with a 1.9 gallon gas tank....
 
BernieTx said:
Why would buyers needing 6.X L2 charging buy a Volt instead of an EV? EV's have more battery range, weight less (no engine), they're less expensive, and they don't have "fuel maintenance" mode required to keep the gasoline age under 12 months,... You already own a Leaf; do you have a need for a gasoline engine?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. You're mixing two things together. Whether or not it has an engine has nothing to do w/max on-board charger wattage. Sounds like you're just making excuses for GM's lame decision in v2.

Many Volt drivers essentially use their cars as EVs almost the entire time. It's annoying that they end up tying up shared resources for a lot more time than necessary due to slow OBC. If I had a Gen 1 or 2 Volt and wanted to pick up the same # of kWh as I do in my Leaf, I'd have to start charging much earlier and tie up a limited # of L2 spaces longer.

When I use our EV valets, it also means one of their J1772 handles is tied up for longer.

When I do my opportunity charging at free public L2s, I'd pick up only about 1/2 the juice in a given amount of time vs. my Leaf. I park, walk over to Chipotle and eat, come back. Sometimes, I do other things in my car while waiting (e.g. email, reading forums, cleaning up paper junk mail, reading, etc.)

If you had a vehicle w/6+ kW OBC w/my scenarios and use cases AND observed charging speed via Chargepoint of current Volts, in comparison, you'd probably understand my point of view better.
BernieTx said:
I'm also curious as to whether the 6.x L2 requirement crowd has any interest in the BMW i3 rex, with its 70mile EV range, DC fast charging, and 7.2kw L2. But it has a crippled ICE, with a 1.9 gallon gas tank....
No, because it's too expensive and the i3 REx's reliability seems terrible. And, I find the vehicle ugly.

If I had one, I'd probably need to switch jobs to one that keeps me a lot less busy due to having to waste of a lot of time of having a new "hobby" of taking it to the shop frequently. Even if it were cheaper to lease/buy than a Leaf, I'd still probably pass. Don't have time for such headaches and again, the styling.
 
cwerdna said:
TomT said:
In 4 1/2 years, I can easily count on two hands of fingers when 6.0 Kw charging would have made any difference to me... Sure it is nice, but for many (such as myself), it makes very little practical difference...

cwerdna said:
As for those people remaining people being "ok" with it, perhaps many don't know what they're missing?
Whereas for me, just the opposite until a few weeks ago. It mattered almost every single weekday for me and sometimes on weekends too for over 2 years now. I already posted why.
It definitely made a difference for me today. I left home w/83% SoC per the dash display. I went to a bunch of places and dropped by my work to get some work done, charge and catch up on some emails, since it was sorta on the way home. I arrived at work with ~21% on the SoC display. My car pulled 13.964 kWh in 2 hours 18 mins. A gen 1 Volt with its lame 3.x kW OBC only pulls ~3.1 kW on our 208 volt EVSEs, so it would've only pulled ~7.13 kWh.

Anyway, I left work with ~80+% SoC (I think it was 88%, I forget... possibly as low as 83%) and headed home toward free L2 public charging. I began a session and walked to a nearby mall to eat dinner. In just about 1.5 hours, my car was in the bounce phase and barely drawing any power (indicating 98% SoC and jumping to 100% when unplugged). IIRC, I was somewhere between 250 and 261 gids.

The previous night, I'd gone somewhere after work and came back to work to shower and get some more work done (been busy). In 2:15, I pulled down 10.256 kWh. The car was in ramp down phase when I unplugged.

I charged 0 times at home between Monday and Saturday.
 
cwerdna said:
BernieTx said:
Why would buyers needing 6.X L2 charging buy a Volt instead of an EV? EV's have more battery range, weight less (no engine), they're less expensive, and they don't have "fuel maintenance" mode required to keep the gasoline age under 12 months,... You already own a Leaf; do you have a need for a gasoline engine?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. You're mixing two things together. Whether or not it has an engine has nothing to do w/max on-board charger wattage. Sounds like you're just making excuses for GM's lame decision in v2.

I was pointing out that the folks for whom 6.x is a deal breaker don't represent lost sales for GM because those folks aren't in the potential Volt buyer's camp to begin with; they're in the pure EV camp instead.

I think it would be nice for GM to offer 6.x as an option. And of course, I agree there will always be scenarios where having 6.x L2 charging would reduce a Volt's gasoline usage. But its not like you have to call a tow truck when the battery runs out.
 
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