Firetruck41
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:36 am
Leaf Number: 408264
Location: SW Washington State

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:48 pm

What is GCR?

When Nissan corporate declares "it is not compatible" that just means "Nissan won't do it". I find it extremely hard to believe that we have a definitive answer that there is no way to get it to work. We know that Nissan will say it won't work, but until an enthusiast or the aftermarket actually has the battery pack or technical documentation, I would not definitively say "it won't work".
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

cwerdna
Posts: 10391
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Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:20 pm

Firetruck41 wrote:What is GCR?

When Nissan corporate declares "it is not compatible" that just means "Nissan won't do it". I find it extremely hard to believe that we have a definitive answer that there is no way to get it to work. We know that Nissan will say it won't work, but until an enthusiast or the aftermarket actually has the battery pack or technical documentation, I would not definitively say "it won't work".
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... 2246197269

If you don't get taken to the comments section, I pasted the comment here:
"johnvoelcker Mod Vincent Wolf • 11 hours ago
@Vincent Wolf and @sranger I asked this question of Nissan this morning, and the answer is no.

The new 30-kWh battery pack is not backward-compatible with the older cars. The sales and marketing exec I spoke with couldn't specify exactly why, but I've asked for more technical details. It may turn into an article here."

To me, even if it were plug compatible, there would likely need to be (at minimum) firmware changes so that the dash display (e.g. % SoC, time estimates to charge, etc.), "fuel" gauge and capacity bars work right.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Firetruck41
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:36 am
Leaf Number: 408264
Location: SW Washington State

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:26 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Firetruck41 wrote:What is GCR?

When Nissan corporate declares "it is not compatible" that just means "Nissan won't do it". I find it extremely hard to believe that we have a definitive answer that there is no way to get it to work. We know that Nissan will say it won't work, but until an enthusiast or the aftermarket actually has the battery pack or technical documentation, I would not definitively say "it won't work".
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... 2246197269
Thanks. Per the single comment I could find related to this, as I suspected, Nissan (marketing) corporate does not intend to use 30kwh batts in old cars. No surprise there. Until we know the technological hurdles, it remains to be seen if there will be a way to use the 30kwh pack in an "old" Leaf (without Nissan's blessing, of course).
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

jeremyz
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:17 am
Delivery Date: 06 Mar 2012

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:55 pm

What's going to happen in 2021 when somebody's 24kWh battery from their 2016 Leaf S needs to be replaced under warranty? Is Nissan going to crank up some long dead battery factory to generate old cells that haven't been produced for years? Or are they just going to stick in some new modules in the 2011-2016 battery case?

mxp
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Location: Fremont, CA

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:08 pm

Ok. We shall wait and see...

I did read in the recent update for the 2016 Leaf that they had a new clause for the battery warranty. It doesn't apply to us, but I remain hopeful that maybe,, just maybe the early adopters might get an exception on a case by case basis...

quoted: "....As evidence of a growing confidence in the 30 kWh battery’s cell chemistry (and the fact it will now take less battery cycles to go further), Nissan warrants battery loss below 9 bars of capacity (70%), for the first 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km) in the US and in Europe. The warranty on the S trim stays consistent with that of the 2015 LEAF, at 5 years or 60,000 miles...."


TimLee wrote:
mxp wrote:... Do we know how many other 2011 owners on our forum who have surpassed the 5 yr mark, and was denied a battery replacement ? If so, did they even argue their case with Nissan?
...
None.
It is too early.
The first 2011 LEAF was delivered in December 2010.
Even that first delivery will not be at five years until December of 2015.

WetEV
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:41 pm

Firetruck41 wrote:Per the single comment I could find related to this, as I suspected, Nissan (marketing) corporate does not intend to use 30kwh batts in old cars. No surprise there. Until we know the technological hurdles, it remains to be seen if there will be a way to use the 30kwh pack in an "old" Leaf (without Nissan's blessing, of course).
This might be Nissan engineering, not marketing.

As an engineer, I'd want to be somewhat cautious in putting a different battery in an older car. Might be a firmware compatibility problem, or perhaps other issues. The only way to be real sure is to instrument the communications and test over a range of conditions. If this is your car, of course, this is fun. Not so fun when it is a customer's car.

Testing costs money. Even if no changes are needed or unexpected issues turn up.

So is there a positive return on investment? If not, why should Nissan spend the resources on this? Even if there is, this has to be second priority to getting the car with the 30kWh battery into production.

Now, a year or two from now, with larger margin and larger expected sales, the answer might be different. And once the production of the 24kWh battery is ramping down, there may be savings from not supporting the old battery and just switching to the newer technology.

(Disclosure: I once worked in automotive electronics design.)
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Firetruck41
Posts: 503
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Leaf Number: 408264
Location: SW Washington State

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:00 pm

WetEV wrote:
Firetruck41 wrote:Per the single comment I could find related to this, as I suspected, Nissan (marketing) corporate does not intend to use 30kwh batts in old cars. No surprise there. Until we know the technological hurdles, it remains to be seen if there will be a way to use the 30kwh pack in an "old" Leaf (without Nissan's blessing, of course).
This might be Nissan engineering, not marketing.

As an engineer, I'd want to be somewhat cautious in putting a different battery in an older car. Might be a firmware compatibility problem, or perhaps other issues. The only way to be real sure is to instrument the communications and test over a range of conditions. If this is your car, of course, this is fun. Not so fun when it is a customer's car.

Testing costs money. Even if no changes are needed or unexpected issues turn up.

So is there a positive return on investment? If not, why should Nissan spend the resources on this? Even if there is, this has to be second priority to getting the car with the 30kWh battery into production.

Now, a year or two from now, with larger margin and larger expected sales, the answer might be different. And once the production of the 24kWh battery is ramping down, there may be savings from not supporting the old battery and just switching to the newer technology.

(Disclosure: I once worked in automotive electronics design.)
Oh yes, not discounting that there may be intentional technological limitations/hurdles, just pretty certain there also is no corporate desire to put 30kwh packs in old Leafs at this point, and no support for us to do so, from Nisssan. It almost certainly rests on enthusiast owners and the aftermarket to find a way to make it happen... if its possible.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

TimLee
Posts: 2811
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Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:44 pm

Firetruck41 wrote:...
Oh yes, not discounting that there may be intentional technological limitations/hurdles, just pretty certain there also is no corporate desire to put 30kwh packs in old Leafs at this point, and no support for us to do so, from Nisssan. It almost certainly rests on enthusiast owners and the aftermarket to find a way to make it happen... if its possible.
And Nissan has incorporated features such as the coded integrated circuit that is needed to install a replacement pack in an existing vehicle and make it work.
Makes the reuse of packs from salvaged vehicles more difficult requiring swapping the lithium battery controller.

You add in changing to eight cells per module instead of four and the reverse engineering of the programming both software and firmware becomes a daunting task.

Technically feasible does not mean it is practical or will happen within the market supply and demand constraints.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

dhanson865
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Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:52 am

jeremyz wrote:The reading was from August 19th right after I lost the bar. I live in Austin, TX.
how about the manufacturing date from the driver door jamb label?
Blue 2012 Leaf 195/65/15 tires, 15" Rims
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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index. ... acity_Loss
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please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

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Stanton
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Re: The Battery Replacement Thread

Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:56 am

jeremyz wrote:The reading was from August 19th right after I lost the bar. I live in Austin, TX.
Thanks...I suspect your AHrs have dropped even further by now. I have recently been bummed at some 42+ AHr readings, but at least yours is within 1 AHr of where I am currently at (44.15).
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
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Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

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