Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

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What is the emission control system in these vehicles that is being turned off (or down) in normal driving (ie not testing) mode?
Do they have a NOx trap? Do they have a urea aftertreatment? The greencar article suggest fuel cutback to lower engine temp.. I can see how that would certainly reduce performance but wouldn't that also increase mpg (like eco-mode)? Is there any sense how much of a performance and efficiency hit these drivers might expect if the emission controls were sufficiently active throughout usage so as to be compliant all the time?
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Wow! Could this be the end of VW?
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No, but I think it will probably accelerate the phase out of all diesel ICEVs.

While I've often considered a turbo diesel for ICEV efficiency, as i do most of my driving far from most people, it has always seemed insane for government subsidy programs (especially in Europe) to encourage their use in areas of high population density.

Are we about to see the death of diesel?

The VW emissions scandal could see a fall in the popularity of diesel engines, and this is no bad thing reckons Hilton Holloway

I’m as much to blame as anyone. Right back in 1998 I got my hands on one of the first super-punchy Mk4 Volkswagen Golf diesels...

Six years later I was scrabbling around in the gutters of Piccadilly, central London. I was photographing the kerb stones which appeared to be thickly coated in a graphite-like substance. It was, in fact, the particulates being emitted - mainly - by London’s ageing diesel bus fleet.

It has taken a ridiculously long time for law makers, civil servants and the media to wake up to the threat from diesel engines that are used in stop-start conditions.

Scientific studies showing London’s Oxford Street, and roads in central Oxford, Manchester and Birmingham were among the most polluted in the world seem to be published to no effect.

Certainly, the amount of pollution put out by diesel engines has fallen dramatically in the last few years, but there are plenty of scientists who are concerned that the newest engines are emitting ever smaller particulates, which, ironically, are so small they might get lodged deep in the lungs and even pass into the bloodstream.

Recent real-world tests by Emissions Analytics - revealed in the Sunday Times with great fanfare but little political effect - show that even the most modern diesel engines can emit far more pollution than their laboratory rating suggests.

Anything from regular stop-start traffic to speed bumps can, for example, cause peaks in nitrogen oxides emissions. The latest estimates are that there are 9500 premature deaths in the capital alone from exposure to pollution...
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http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/industry/are-we-about-see-death-diesel

The result of decades of encouraging diesel sales were apparent last Spring in Paris:
Paris emergency measures to combat smog hailed as a success

Traffic jams in the French capital reduced by up to 40% as result of attempt to reduce level of fine PM10 particles from diesel vehicles

Emergency measures introduced in Paris to halve the number of vehicles on the roads after a noxious smog descended on the French capital have been hailed as a success.

Police said the measures had reduced traffic jams in and around Paris by up to 40% and that 2,800 drivers had been stopped and given on-the-spot fines of €22 (£16) for flouting the regulation by midday on Monday.

Only “clean” cars, those with uneven number plates or vehicles carrying more than three people have been permitted to enter Paris and 22 surrounding areas on Monday in an attempt to reduce the level of fine PM10 particles from diesel engines...

Pedestrians and cyclists in the city have said that the pollution has become steadily worse over the past few weeks. For several hours on Wednesday last week, as the pollution peaked and a cloud of smog almost completely obscured the city’s famous landmarks, including the Eiffel Tower, Paris was declared the most polluted city in the world – worse than Shanghai, which normally tops the list...
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/23/paris-smog-pollution-emergency-measures-traffic
 
drees said:
It just got a lot worse. It now appears to affect every VAG 2.0l diesel sold worldwide as others have suggested it might.

11 million vehicles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html
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This is mind boggling. Don't they have a legal department or these things were never clarified with the lawyers ? Fairly sure this must have been cleared by some exec high up.
 
evnow said:
This is mind boggling. Don't they have a legal department or these things were never clarified with the lawyers ? Fairly sure this must have been cleared by some exec high up.
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What? You don't like the idea of 11 million rolling coal cars out there? :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
 
RegGuheert said:
drees said:
It just got a lot worse. It now appears to affect every VAG 2.0l diesel sold worldwide as others have suggested it might.

11 million vehicles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html
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...and another 20% drop in share price...
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Sounds like now is a good time to buy.
 
I don't think Greencar understands how modern diesels work... You can't lean burn a diesel per se like you can a gasoline engine because they are always operating in a very air rich environment regardless. More likely, they are playing with the EGR or Urea injection (on those engines so equipped)... Clearly it will be revealed ta some point just exactly what they were doing and how.

GregH said:
The greencar article suggest fuel cutback to lower engine temp.. I can see how that would certainly reduce performance but wouldn't that also increase mpg (like eco-mode)?
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However, the indication is also that, while the code was present in worldwide engines, it likely was not active in them since they use different emissions systems, standards and tuning. It is like many other things in coding, you have a large code base but you don't necessarily use all of it in every application... European passenger car diesel emission standards are not yet as strict as they are in the U.S...

drees said:
It just got a lot worse. It now appears to affect every VAG 2.0l diesel sold worldwide as others have suggested it might.
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DanCar said:
What? You don't like the idea of 11 million rolling coal cars out there? :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
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The irony is that those TDIs are a lot cleaner than the pickup trucks that are allowed by regulations to pollute at much higher levels.

There's more than one way to game the system and car companies in the USA successfully lobbied for relaxed air pollution requirements on light trucks, which are highly profitable. But that's legal...
 
Yep, light trucks are tier 2 whereas cars are tier 4... Recreational marine diesels are tier 3... A gigantic difference!

A tier 2 emits about 250 times what a tier 4 does, and not just nitrous oxides, as in the case of the VW cheat... It's all a shell game...

And I think any rolling coal vehicle should be confiscated and crushed!

dgpcolorado said:
There's more than one way to game the system and car companies in the USA successfully lobbied for relaxed air pollution requirements on light trucks, which are highly profitable. But that's legal...
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Europe realizes diesel was a mistake. http://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-diesel-in-europe-impact-on-health-pollution
As new research shows that diesel fumes are worse than expected for health, triggering cancers, heart attacks and the stunting of children’s growth, many politicians have admitted a major environmental mistake.

Shadow environment minister Barry Gardiner told C4 last year that that it was the “wrong decision” to incentivise diesel. “Hands up — there’s absolutely no question that the decision we took was the wrong decision. But at that time we didn’t have the evidence that subsequently we did have.”
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I wish some more or less official agency would launch an investigation if Nissan batteries don't last as promised. And a subsequent apology from Carlos Ghosn for his company officials making false advertizements would be nice too.
 
This is the most detailed explanation of the engines in question and how they treat NoX I've seen, via GCC:
Background on the 2.0L diesel engines at the core of the Volkswagen emissions testing debacle
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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150921-vw2l.html
 
Valdemar said:
I wish some more or less official agency would launch an investigation if Nissan batteries don't last as promised. And a subsequent apology from Carlos Ghosn for his company officials making false advertizements would be nice too.
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Total OT. Big difference between battery not living up to expectations - and downright cheating/fraud.

Back on topic - the alt title for this thread would be - dirty little secret of clean diesel.
 
evnow said:
Valdemar said:
I wish some more or less official agency would launch an investigation if Nissan batteries don't last as promised. And a subsequent apology from Carlos Ghosn for his company officials making false advertizements would be nice too.
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Total OT. Big difference between battery not living up to expectations - and downright cheating/fraud.

Back on topic - the alt title for this thread would be - dirty little secret of clean diesel.
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It is all semantics. Agree on OT.
 
VW aside, the current generation of clean diesels with urea injection from BMW, MB and some others are just that, very clean; as much so as a modern gas engine...

evnow said:
Back on topic - the alt title for this thread would be - dirty little secret of clean diesel.
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TomT said:
VW aside, the current generation of clean diesels with urea injection from BMW, MB and some others are just that, very clean; as much so as a modern gas engine...

evnow said:
Back on topic - the alt title for this thread would be - dirty little secret of clean diesel.
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I tend to agree, unlike what others have said here I don't feel any nauseating effects when riding my bike behind modern diesels, numerous 1980 era Silverados driven by guys wearing staw hats with lawnmowers in the back are much much worse.
 
Valdemar said:
TomT said:
VW aside, the current generation of clean diesels with urea injection from BMW, MB and some others are just that, very clean; as much so as a modern gas engine...

evnow said:
Back on topic - the alt title for this thread would be - dirty little secret of clean diesel.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I tend to agree, unlike what others have said here I don't feel any nauseating effects when riding my bike behind modern diesels, numerous 1980 era Silverados driven by guys wearing staw hats with lawnmowers in the back are much much worse.
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Yes, current diesels are a lot better than the '76 Peugeot 504D my dad had, but after all these years they ought to be. I don't know how good or bad current diesel buses are, because I think all the local transit agencies have switched to CNG (plus a few fuel cells or BEVs), and they don't present much of a problem.
 
GRA said:
This is the most detailed explanation of the engines in question and how they treat NoX I've seen, via GCC:
Background on the 2.0L diesel engines at the core of the Volkswagen emissions testing debacle
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150921-vw2l.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, VERY interesting reading. I can't believe how complicated and convoluted the emissions systems are for a diesel! :eek: With all those filters, valves, and catalysts, it looks like a VW mechanics dream, or perhaps nightmare, I'm not sure which. Urea injection??? Really??? I can't believe these VW diesel guys who think that is what we all should be driving. It makes me SOOO happy I have gone with the much simpler EV.
 

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