Battery-electric bus discussion

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Via ievs:
University of Montana Goes With Proterra Electric Buses
http://insideevs.com/university-of-montana-goes-with-proterra-electric-buses/

Proterra received an order for two electric buses for the Associated Students of the University of Montana (ASUM) Transportation and announced that it intends to supply EV buses to campus locations nationwide in the future.

The first project for the University of Montana consists of two 40-foot Catalyst Fast Charge buses and one semi-autonomous fast charger.

Delivery is scheduled for September 2016. . . .
 
For this particular application, I wonder why we can't improve on a solution already employed in many cities, and that is add a small battery to an electric trolley bus (basically, a city bus with a trolley pole or pantograph)? Since buses tend to run on a fixed route, the overhead wires would provide the primary power, but if for some reason it needs to deviate (such as a blocked street) the driver can retract the trolley pole/pantograph and drive on batteries for a short distance until it can resume the fixed route again. Or a route can be devised that will allow the bus to use the overhead wires for most of its journey, but will use batteries for the part of it where there are no overhead wires; many bus routes in urban areas run along concurrent paths for part of their routes. The battery will be continuously charged by the overhead wires, so no need for a quick charge solution.

For other areas I wonder if a hybrid-electric solution would be more practical than trying to make a full on EV bus.
 
RonDawg said:
For this particular application, I wonder why we can't improve on a solution already employed in many cities, and that is add a small battery to an electric trolley bus (basically, a city bus with a trolley pole or pantograph)? Since buses tend to run on a fixed route, the overhead wires would provide the primary power, but if for some reason it needs to deviate (such as a blocked street) the driver can retract the trolley pole/pantograph and drive on batteries for a short distance until it can resume the fixed route again. Or a route can be devised that will allow the bus to use the overhead wires for most of its journey, but will use batteries for the part of it where there are no overhead wires; many bus routes in urban areas run along concurrent paths for part of their routes. The battery will be continuously charged by the overhead wires, so no need for a quick charge solution.

For other areas I wonder if a hybrid-electric solution would be more practical than trying to make a full on EV bus.

Such a solution would work - and in fact makes a lot of sense - for dense areas like SoCal. Around here, the busses travel all over the county, and things are much more spread out. I couldn't imagine the cost of running literally hundreds of miles of overhead lines being less than a QC at a few dozen stops.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
RonDawg said:
For this particular application, I wonder why we can't improve on a solution already employed in many cities, and that is add a small battery to an electric trolley bus (basically, a city bus with a trolley pole or pantograph)? Since buses tend to run on a fixed route, the overhead wires would provide the primary power, but if for some reason it needs to deviate (such as a blocked street) the driver can retract the trolley pole/pantograph and drive on batteries for a short distance until it can resume the fixed route again. Or a route can be devised that will allow the bus to use the overhead wires for most of its journey, but will use batteries for the part of it where there are no overhead wires; many bus routes in urban areas run along concurrent paths for part of their routes. The battery will be continuously charged by the overhead wires, so no need for a quick charge solution.

For other areas I wonder if a hybrid-electric solution would be more practical than trying to make a full on EV bus.

Such a solution would work - and in fact makes a lot of sense - for dense areas like SoCal. Around here, the busses travel all over the county, and things are much more spread out. I couldn't imagine the cost of running literally hundreds of miles of overhead lines being less than a QC at a few dozen stops.

That's why I mentioned that for some areas, a hybrid-electric may be a more practical solution, just like a Volt is a more practical solution than a Leaf for some people.
 
Re PHEV buses, via ievs:
Volvo To Deliver 11 Plug-in Hybrid Buses To Namur, Belgium With ABB Chargers
http://insideevs.com/volvo-to-deliver-11-plug-in-hybrid-buses-to-namur-belgium-with-abb-chargers/

The deal includes two en route quick chargers.
. . . The Volvo 7900 Electric Hybrid can drive up to seven km (4.3 miles) on electricity alone, which positions it in the lowest range plug-ins rank, but if you can replenish energy on the bus stops every few minutes long range is not such a necessity as most of the mileage will still be electric.
To me the most interesting part is this:
[Bus operator] TEC buys the bus system as a turn-key solution. This means that Volvo takes full responsibility for vehicle servicing, battery maintenance as well as maintenance of the standard-based charging stations for a fixed monthly cost. . . .
Absent battery guarantees, this strikes me as the best way for an agency to eliminate uncertainty over long-term costs and durability at an early stage, assuming that there are minimum performance requirements in the contract.
 
paulgipe said:
I recently posted my impression of a test ride at Proterra Demos Bus for Bakersfield’s GET Transit under Electric Vehicles on my web site.

Paul Gipe
Paul, did you happen to find out if Proterra is guaranteeing battery capacity for a fixed period of time, or is that '6-8 years' just a claim backed by nothing at all?
 
Via GCC:
Group of European electric bus manufacturers agrees on an open interface for charging
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/group-of-european-electric-bus-manufacturers-agrees-on-an-open-interface-for-charging.html

European bus manufacturers Irizar, Solaris, VDL and Volvo have agreed to ensure the interoperability of electric buses with charging infrastructure provided by ABB, Heliox and Siemens. The objective is to ensure an open interface between electric buses and charging infrastructure and to facilitate the introduction of electric bus systems in European cities. . . .

For opportunity charging, the system includes automatic contact by a pantograph, wireless communication, contacting plates and infrastructure equipment that automatically connect vehicles with a pantograph. For overnight charging, the fast charging standard for cars (CCS) will be used as a base for the plug and for the communication. . . .
Via ievs:
City of St. Albert To Become First In Canada To Order Long-Range All-Electric Buses
http://insideevs.com/city-of-st-albert-to-become-first-in-canada-to-order-long-range-all-electric-buses/

The city of St. Albert in Alberta, Canada announced the order of three long-range (up to 250 km or 155 miles) electric buses (35ft / 10.6 m long). With the order, St. Albert becomes the first municipality in Canada with such fleet.

Vehicles will be supplied by BYD with a 12 year battery warranty (the only such guarantee in the industry according to BYD). . . .
 
GRA said:
paulgipe said:
I recently posted my impression of a test ride at Proterra Demos Bus for Bakersfield’s GET Transit under Electric Vehicles on my web site.

Paul Gipe
Paul, did you happen to find out if Proterra is guaranteeing battery capacity for a fixed period of time, or is that '6-8 years' just a claim backed by nothing at all?

GRA,

I was just a guy on the bus relaying corporate PR. I don't know how serious GET is about the buses. They would be heavily subsidized by the air district. More than that, I don't know.

In terms of bus deals, the Antelope Valley bus system has just ordered a bunch of BYD buses. I don't know if they will be built in China or not.

Paul
 
paulgipe said:
GRA said:
Paul, did you happen to find out if Proterra is guaranteeing battery capacity for a fixed period of time, or is that '6-8 years' just a claim backed by nothing at all?
GRA,

I was just a guy on the bus relaying corporate PR. I don't know how serious GET is about the buses. They would be heavily subsidized by the air district. More than that, I don't know.

In terms of bus deals, the Antelope Valley bus system has just ordered a bunch of BYD buses. I don't know if they will be built in China or not.

Paul
Okay, thanks. I figured that was probably the case, but thought I'd ask in case you left out any info from your post for length or other reasons. I hope we'll start to see more bus and taxi operators insist on battery warranties such as the one that BYD is offering, because lacking long-term data or a warranty, any claims of LCO savings and long-term suitability are speculative. It really bugs me when some company makes such claims after a few months of a year of testing, when the systems will need to last many times that for any such savings to eventuate. All toooften that leads to very public failure, bad press and long-term damage to the tech's reputation.
 
Via GCC:
Transport for London launches first all-electric, long-range double-decker BYD buses into service
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160319-tfl.html

The buses are equipped with BYD-designed and built Li-ion iron phosphate batteries, delivering 345 kWh of power and with an industry-benchmark 12-year battery warranty, the longest electric battery warranty available.

The batteries can power the bus for over 24 hours and up to 190 miles of typical urban driving on the service routes with a single daily recharging requiring only four hours. . . .

TfL is putting five of the all-electric double decker buses on Route 98 operated on behalf of TfL by Metroline. Route 98 was chosen given its status as a pollution hotspot in the city.
I've been a fan of LiFePO4 for its long cycle life, heat tolerance and thermal stability even though it lags other Li-ion chemistries in energy density, so I'll be watching operator experience with BYD's buses intently.
 
Paul[/quote]
Okay, thanks. I figured that was probably the case, but thought I'd ask in case you left out any info from your post for length or other reasons. I hope we'll start to see more bus and taxi operators insist on battery warranties such as the one that BYD is offering, because lacking long-term data or a warranty, any claims of LCO savings and long-term suitability are speculative. It really bugs me when some company makes such claims after a few months of a year of testing, when the systems will need to last many times that for any such savings to eventuate. All toooften that leads to very public failure, bad press and long-term damage to the tech's reputation.[/quote]

GRA,

Wholeheartedly agree. I've been fighting hype and overselling in wind energy for four decades. Subsequent failure to meet inflated performance projections just give the industry a black eye. Alas, I still see it everyday. Fortunately, there's enough data now to show what works and what doesn't.

Paul
 
paulgipe said:
GRA said:
Okay, thanks. I figured that was probably the case, but thought I'd ask in case you left out any info from your post for length or other reasons. I hope we'll start to see more bus and taxi operators insist on battery warranties such as the one that BYD is offering, because lacking long-term data or a warranty, any claims of LCO savings and long-term suitability are speculative. It really bugs me when some company makes such claims after a few months or a year of testing, when the systems will need to last many times that for any such savings to eventuate. All too often that leads to very public failure, bad press and long-term damage to the tech's reputation.
GRA,

Wholeheartedly agree. I've been fighting hype and overselling in wind energy for four decades. Subsequent failure to meet inflated performance projections just give the industry a black eye. Alas, I still see it everyday. Fortunately, there's enough data now to show what works and what doesn't.

Paul
I think we've both been there, and when I was designing and selling off-grid systems my whole attitude was to under-promise and over-deliver. I'd happily pass up a sale if I felt there was a likelihood of customer disappointment, and If we lacked reliable long-term data (like when amorphous silicon PV came in), I made sure the customer understood the uncertainties before they made a decision. Having advocates driven as much or more by ideology than profit cuts both ways. It may lead to better business ethics as above, but it's equally likely to lead to excessive optimism/over-promotion/blindness to or ignoring of disadvantages or faults.

For better or worse, AE has entered the age of big business, and the entrepreneurs who only see dollar signs have moved in. To be sure, the mainstreaming of AE has lead to lots of R&D money being funneled in to improvements, cost reductions, standardization and widespread adoption, and that's exactly what we were trying to bring about 'back in the day'.

EVs are going through the same process, as the early adopters/advocates/ideologues give way to the mainstream/business people, so it's deja vu all over again. ;) I've spent much of the past 4.5 years here trying to inject a note of caution into the often over-enthusiastic claims of early adopters, and (especially in the first couple of years) those of us who did so were regularly accused of being anti-EV. Now that people have had time to experience their cars over a period of years and the initial "I'm driving an EV!" excitement has faded, and they're looking more objectively at how the vehicles perform as cars, there's a lot more realism and caution, and I only get accused of being anti-EV now once a year on average. :lol:
 
Via GCC:
King County Metro completes accelerated durability and reliability testing of Proterra electric bus
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160330-kcm.html

King County Metro Transit (KCM) in Washington state has completed an accelerated durability and reliability test of the Proterra Catalyst 40' FC (fast charge) battery-electric bus. Simulating one year of continuous operation with a constant 97 passenger equivalent load, this was the most rigorous test of its nature yet performed in the industry.

Operating 24 hours per day over the 106-day period, the Proterra Catalyst vehicle achieved 32,545 total miles . . . The bus was hauling 14,500 lbs (6,577 kg) of water ballast during the entire test period, which represents 125% of a normal full load of 77 passengers with standees. . . .
While useful, I hope the operator doesn't base long-term cost projections on any 'accelerated test' regime. I think we've seen with the LEAF where that can get you.
 
Agreed, but at least they tested it in the WINTER so they know what some of the worst conditions will be. Full defrost is needed to keep the windows clear, especially with 50 soaking wet people on a Seattle bus! Probably by running continuously and always charging, they kept the battery warm.
 
GRA said:
While useful, I hope the operator doesn't base long-term cost projections on any 'accelerated test' regime. I think we've seen with the LEAF where that can get you.
Agreed. Accelerated testing (constant cycling) of batteries can be quite a deceptive indication of battery longevity since calendar losses are significant in most applications.

Also, nowhere in this article or in the link that it referenced does anyone reference battery capacity. It seems they have chosen to ignore the single largest long-term cost factor.

Still, I'm happy to see these battery-powered busses come into service. It appears they are fully capable of doing the job:
The vehicle averaged 325 miles (523 km) each day, with a maximum mileage of 572 miles (921 km) in one day, and was charged more than 1,750 times during the test period.
And they apparently have the potential to offset any additional costs related to the battery manufacture and maintenance, although no one seems to want to talk about those higher costs (kinda like the early days on this forum):
Average fuel economy was 15 MPGe over this testing period, 3.125-times more efficient than current KCM 40' diesel buses (4.8 MPG). This is projected to improve to 18 MPGe (3.75 x diesel) at normal loads. (Proterra Altoona test results yielded 22 MPGe.) KCM’s diesel-hybrid buses average 6.3 MPG.

Total estimated cost of maintenance for this test, incl. parts & labor was approximately $0.20/mile, compared to $0.90/mile for diesel; $1.10/mile for diesel hybrid; and $1.00/mile for CNG buses.
 
This is HEV rather than BEV-bus related, but may be of interest nevertheless. Via GCC:
AC Transit Board greenlights a $108M, 9.5-mile infrastructure project for first Bus Rapid Transit line; diesel-hybrid buses
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160402-actbrt.html

. . . Construction of the 150 block transit service (that spans 9.5 miles) is slated to begin in May 2016 with service expected to begin in November 2017. . . .

The BRT will operate inside a transit-only lane for most of the 9.5 mile route with stops at raised station platforms. The service will run on new 60-foot diesel-electric hybrid buses manufactured by New Flyer. Each bus is specially designed with five-doors to quicken the boarding process. . . .
This is being financed by a county 0.5 cent (on top of an existing 0.5 cent) transportation sales tax we passed last year, plus parcel taxes and federal money. The route includes all the usual BRT measures: dedicated lanes, raised platforms for straight-in boarding, short headways (5 minutes peak, 10 minutes off-peak), signal priority, wider stop spacing (every 1/3rd mile). There are a couple of other measures to reduce dwell time at stops:, interior bike racks, and "innovative wheelchair tie-down systems." Unstated in the article is whether they will use pre-boarding payment, as is typical of BRT - I assume so. [Edit]: Found a press release which mentions ticket machines at the stations, so almost certainly yes.

Although the rest of the fleet is diesel (except for 12 fuel cell buses, one of which passed 20k hours of operation last August), It strikes me as slightly odd that AC Transit is going with diesel-electric hybrids. Maybe none of the BEV or FCEV buses were available with the necessary combination of range, performance, articulation (their current articulated buses are also made by New Flyer) and known cost of ownership, but this would seem a good route to go ZEV from the get-go. In any case, although it doesn't extend as far as me (I use BART trains instead, which run parallel to this to the west), it's good to see the Bay Area finally getting a real BRT line. Once in, it can eventually be turned into a light rail line if the traffic demands it and funds are available. The article says that a light rail line would have cost $70m/mile, versus $25m/mile for BRT.
 
Via ievs.com:
BYD Receives US Orders For Electric Buses From Link Transit And SolTrans
http://insideevs.com/byd-receives-orders-for-electric-buses-from-link-transit-and-soltrans/

. . . The first new customer is Link Transit, in the City of Wenatchee, Washington, which this summer will receive four new BYD K9S 35ft. . . .

The second new order is for two BYD K9 (40 footers) for Solano County Transit (SolTrans), that operate in the Cities of Benicia and Vallejo in California. . . .
 
Via GCC:
Proterra racks up 33 more orders for electric buses through FTA Low-No awards
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160421-proterra.html

Proterra . . . announced that SEPTA, Foothill Transit and King County Metro will use their Federal Transit Administration (FTA) Low or No Emission Vehicle Deployment Grants (Low-No) (earlier post) to purchase 33 Catalyst electric buses and charging infrastructure.

These latest orders bring Proterra’s total number of orders to 155 vehicles from 16 transit agencies across the United States. Proterra customers won 33 of the 55 buses awarded under the Low-No program. . . .
 
Via GCC:
Utah Transits Authority adding 5 battery-electric New Flyer buses to fleet
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160423-uta.html

UTA and the University of Utah received a $5.4-million Low-No grant from the US Federal Transit Administration (FTA) to purchase five New Flyer battery-electric buses. (Earlier post.) Three of these will be used on route 2 in Salt Lake City and two that will serve the University of Utah campus (also in Salt Lake City). . . .

An electrically-driven air conditioning system is used to cool the bus when needed. For moderately cold temperatures, the bus uses electric heating. For very cold conditions, an optional liquid fuel heater warms the passenger cabin using a small amount of renewable bio-diesel. This helps maintain bus range during very cold climate conditions. . . .
Finally.
 
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