150,000 Miles on my original battery 2011

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aventineavenue said:
Also: Unlike the LEAF, the Volt uses an active liquid thermal management system (TMS) that both cools and warms the battery, keeping it in a "sweet spot" of between ~45F and ~85F while in operation (discharge) or being charged. Under extreme circumstances, it may even activate while the car is parked in the heat.

The OP has that as well. It's called living in the usually cool coastal Pacific Northwest. We get plenty of cool liquid most months. Rain happens.

A TMS wouldn't help battery life at all, might even hurt it, at least in the PNW. With outside conditions cool, with a TMS, the battery will stay warmer (due to being insulated) than without a TMS. Unless you DCQC a lot, and probably other complications. This is why studies show that TMS only helps in hot climates.

BernieTx said:
Eric Belmer from Ohio has driven his 2012 Volt Sparkie over 315k miles with over 110k miles on EV and still gets the same 35 mile EV range as when brand new.

Same 35 mile EV range? OK, but that doesn't mean the same battery capacity. That's about 3000 battery full cycles. Batteries do wear out. This can be slowed by battery design, and by thermal management, but not stopped. The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?

More efficient driving?
Reduction in the battery top and bottom margins?
Something else?
 
Eric Balmer of Ohio - 110,000 miles EV? 4.5 years times 365 days comes to 1,643 days. Divide those days into 110,000 and that comes to 67 miles per day. Likely hood the real number of EV days would be 50 weeks times 5 days per week times 4.5 years = 1,125. This brings miles per EV day average to 98 miles/day.

The math does not add up either way even if he is charging at each end point and then that still comes to a daily average per leg of 34 - 49 miles and thus he would be hammering his full cycle count due to extremely low or negative DOD percents.

Is his battery capacity oversubscribed?
 
WetEV said:
The OP has that as well. It's called living in the usually cool coastal Pacific Northwest. We get plenty of cool liquid most months. Rain happens.

Clever answer, but not the same as a liquid TMS, that keeps the battery 45F-85F *no matter what* charging, ambient, hard driving, etc, and does is at the cell level (as the coolant path winds it way past each triplet/duplet) Blowing ambient air on a heating up battery just doesn't work the same and at some temps (over 100F?) really will do almost nothing at all except waste energy. At 120F+ internal temp, lithium cells can be permanently damaged. Also, unlike the LEAF's, the Volt's is wrapped in thermal insulation and more centrally located (and less bottom surface area) so it takes longer for any outside influence, hot or cold, to affect the battery's core temp.

So if temp was the primary culprit, maybe it was simply overcharging/low draining and/or aging.

WetEV said:
A TMS wouldn't help battery life at all, might even hurt it, at least in the PNW.

Please do elaborate. It would seem cooling when hot and warming when cold (which the LEAF also does, but using flat pads) would only be of benefit. For example, in cool/cold weather, the pack will be most quickly evenly warmed above 40F as the coolant quickly circulates.

WetEV said:
Same 35 mile EV range? OK, but that doesn't mean the same battery capacity. That's about 3000 battery full cycles...The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?

The Volt never does full cycles. It can't. It does 60%-70% cycle, never above ~90% and never below~15% (actual numbers depend on MY) So every "full" cycle is at most a ~2/3 cycle, in the least stressful part of the SOC (State of Charge).
 
rexki said:
The math does not add up either way even if he is charging at each end point and then that still comes to a daily average per leg of 34 - 49 miles and thus he would be hammering his full cycle count due to extremely low or negative DOD percents.

Is his battery capacity oversubscribed?

No, he has a ~220 miles round trip commute and charges full at least twice in 24 hrs (like I do). Once overnight at home, once at work. The difference from me is, he gets on the highway and and keeps driving another ~60 miles each way in hybrid mode (whereas I go on;y ~75 miles total so stay withing the AER (All Electric Range) of the vehicle.

You can't really oversubscribe the Volt battery (except by a couple percent through a few "tricks" people have learned. It's around 15% low to I think 90% max on the high end (more like 85%). So it just does;t have a "full cycle count"; every cycle is at max a !2/3 cycle, and not stressing the battery as much as going say 5% to 70%, or 35% to 100%.
 
WetEV said:
The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?

More efficient driving?
Reduction in the battery top and bottom margins?
Something else?

He drives the car the same way he did when new; mostly highway commuting during the week (where he gets the same 30-35 miles per charge, depending on season) and around local on the weekends (where he gets the same 40-45 in mild weather as when new)

If there's been any measurable degradation, it would have to be less than say around 12%, or the computer might start encroaching on the usable SOC (~9.7 max estimated for a 2012) and subsequently one would see less range with the same drive habits/[patterns, and the screen might only say like 9.0 kWh used consistently, or less. To date no one has reported such a phenomenon but we are always on the lookout for it! :)

The Volt engineers have repeatedly stated that the SOC window itself does not "open up" based on age or degradation, it simple measures and estimates the state of charge, and measures/estimates the depletion until the low point is reached where the engine comes on (and enough SOC must remain for the car to operate properly as a hybrid, with a smaller SOC window) Of course this is all trade secret, s we don't really know the guts of the code and what's going on.
 
First of all: Congratulations to TaylorSFGuy for this impressive achievement! Unfortunately, he may be the only 2011 LEAF owner to achieve 150,000 miles on the original battery.
BernieTx said:
Eric Belmer from Ohio has driven his 2012 Volt Sparkie over 315k miles with over 110k miles on EV and still gets the same 35 mile EV range as when brand new.
Interesting case. Let's do some math:

Miles on gasoline = 315,000 miles - 110,000 miles = 205,000 miles
Total gasoline burned = 205,000 miles / 35 miles/gallon = 5,857 gallons
Overall fuel efficiency = 315,000 miles / 5,857 gallons = 54 miles/gallon

Total electricity consumed = 110,000 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 27,500 kWh = 27.5 MWh
Electricity cost = 27,500 kWh * 0.10 $/kWh = $2,750

Conclusions:

- Mr. Belmer could have saved ~$15,000 up front for the vehicle, $1000 up front for the EVSE, and ~$2,750 in fuel costs had he purchased a 2012 Toyota Pius instead of a Chevrolet Volt. In other words, he overpaid by over $4000/year for a vehicle with aproximately 1/2 the driving range. U.S. taxpayers subsidized some of that overage.
- Mr. Belmer's car required the manufacture of a 16-kWh battery when a car with 1/8 the battery capacity would have been a better solution.
- Mr. Balmier's car consumes enough electricity to power some homes in Ohio (in addition to the gasoline he burned, assuming the house is not heated with electricity). In other words, this car increases electricity consumption for no gain.

I'm sure there are excellent applications for a Chevy Volt, but this is not one of them.
 
From previous post about the Chevy Volt 110K EV miles - I would contend that Eric's electric usage attributable to the Volt has never gotten close to the 27,500 kWhs.

If it had then his battery would not be at full capacity - unless "oversubscribed" by the obvious depredation. Even at 2/3 cycle it would not be possible without over-subscription or his batteries are purely acting at 1/8 capacity as previously alluded and the kWh would be in the 4,300 - 9,000 kWh amount - truly consumed at the utility meter.

By oversubscribed I mean that GM put more than the published KW battery into the car and thus allows for cells to be degraded and have spare capacity come on-board thus giving the appearance and same EV driving range over the majority of its life. Tesla is a master of this as well and that is why they hide the battery pictures and specifications due to "over-subscription". We as the end user have not ability to impact this over-subscription that I speak of in the previous post.

I agree that this is not the ideal car for this usage model but I applaud his purchase of a Volt since he had the cash and/or credit worthiness to purchase. - strongly believe in freedom of choice and capitalism, lightly seasoned with government oversight and subsidies.

If we knock government then we all would not be on this board talking about EV's in phase 1, we would be talking about EV's in generation 8 and 40 years later (since 1976) due to the super cheap oil and gas we are addicted too on the backs of:

1 our Yellow coded air quality in Chicago today and now the majority of days.
2. our fallen US soldiers in the middle East, defending the Strait of Hormuz and it steady stream of oil tankers headed to the Gulf of Mexico.
3. A lot of white concrete roads across America built on Gasoline taxes - Yes I like highways.
4. Billions of plastic water bottles in our land fills and waterways. - I do not partake in this behavior.

Getting off soap box.

By all of us (those on this board and beyond) driving around with alternative fuel vehicles we are saying our part in the 4 items above and also your freedom of choice to your reasons you are doing your part - I applaud you all!!
 
rexki said:
From previous post about the Chevy Volt 110K EV miles - I would contend that Eric's electric usage attributable to the Volt has never gotten close to the 27,500 kWhs.
It's an extremely simple calculation. Here it is again:
RegGuheert said:
Total electricity consumed = 110,000 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 27,500 kWh = 27.5 MWh
The ONLY assumption here is the from-the-wall efficiency, and my estimate is almost-certainly generous.

FWIW, I use the exact same assumption to calculate that our 2011 Nissan LEAF consumes 2 MWh to travel 8000 miles each year.
rexki said:
By all of us (those on this board and beyond) driving around with alternative fuel vehicles we are saying our part in the 4 items above and also your freedom of choice to your reasons you are doing your part - I applaud you all!!
Sorry, but driving alone in a car 70,000 miles/year is not a way to say "I'm protecting the environment," or "I'm trying to stop foreign oil wars."

I've simply pointed out that Mr. Belmer would have done significantly less damage to the environment and his wallet had he chosen a 2012 Toyota Prius instead of a 2012 Chevrolet Volt.

In the case of TaylorSFGuy, I believe he chose the least-damaging vehicle in which to travel that many miles. The only way I can see to reduce that further would be to reduce the number of miles he drives.
 
RegGuheert said:
rexki said:
From previous post about the Chevy Volt 110K EV miles - I would contend that Eric's electric usage attributable to the Volt has never gotten close to the 27,500 kWhs.
It's an extremely simple calculation. Here it is again:
RegGuheert said:
Total electricity consumed = 110,000 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 27,500 kWh = 27.5 MWh
The ONLY assumption here is the from-the-wall efficiency, and my estimate is almost-certainly generous.

FWIW, I use the exact same assumption to calculate that our 2011 Nissan LEAF consumes 2 MWh to travel 8000 miles each year.
rexki said:
By all of us (those on this board and beyond) driving around with alternative fuel vehicles we are saying our part in the 4 items above and also your freedom of choice to your reasons you are doing your part - I applaud you all!!
Sorry, but driving alone in a car 70,000 miles/year is not a way to say "I'm protecting the environment," or "I'm trying to stop foreign oil wars."

I've simply pointed out that Mr. Belmer would have done significantly less damage to the environment and his wallet had he chosen a 2012 Toyota Prius instead of a 2012 Chevrolet Volt. <snip>
While I agree with your general point, you are crediting EB's Volt with only 35 mpg. The 2011/12 Volt was credited with 37 mpg combined, and IIRR 40 mpg highway, which is where he's putting the majority of miles on the ICE. ISTR that people were getting 40+ on the highway. He could reduce his gas use even more by making smart use of hold mode. The change to an engine that burns regular gas and gets better mpg in the Volt 2 would improve the economics even more. None of which is to say that a Prius wouldn't have been cheaper all around, but then you'd have to drive a Prius with all that implies (pre-Gen 4). The best environmental approach (if that had been their main motivation) for both EB and Steve would be to move to shorten their respective commutes. And it would have also saved them many hours of their lives. Moving was something they were both unwilling/unable to do.
 
dwl said:
The OP has done really well on a Gen 1. When discussing other battery types, the Gen 2 (MY2013 in US terms) can do well as shown by this taxi company in the UK where one has done over 150k miles and has only recently lost the first bar. https://mobile.twitter.com/candctaxis/status/732458879401877504
Wow! I think the (presumably) mild climate of the UK helps. I'm guessing it would be similar to the Seattle area. (I've only been in the UK once myself.) Any idea what the build month on that was?

I wonder if any mild climate 2013+ Leafs in North America (w/build date of 4/2013 or beyond) will be able to do that well.

We (or rather I) don't call model year 2013+ "Gen 2". Some people have invented the moniker Mk2 for it. I'd call it Gen 1.5 or a Gen 1 refresh, despite it looking totally different under the hood, OBC moved from back to the front + a bunch of other enhancements.

Gen 2 wouldn't be until we get a much longer range Leaf w/a totally different interior inside and out.
 
aventineavenue said:
WetEV said:
The OP has that as well. It's called living in the usually cool coastal Pacific Northwest. We get plenty of cool liquid most months. Rain happens.

Clever answer, but not the same as a liquid TMS, that keeps the battery 45F-85F *no matter what*

The climate mostly does keep the battery 45F to 85F here. My battery has only rarely been over 81F. TMS would have done almost nothing to reduce the high temperature exposure.

aventineavenue said:
WetEV said:
A TMS wouldn't help battery life at all, might even hurt it, at least in the PNW.

Please do elaborate. It would seem cooling when hot and warming when cold (which the LEAF also does, but using flat pads) would only be of benefit.

Here it usually isn't hot or cold. It is usually cool. This morning, for example, it was 52F outside, and my battery was 60F. If I had a TMS, the battery would have been insulated against the cool outside, and the battery would have been warmer. How much warmer? Depends on how well insulated, and lots of other things. It is an interesting question, would a higher temperature on almost all days outweigh a higher temperature on a few days? See, when it's cool, rather than cold or hot, the TMS does not warm or cool the battery. And that's most of the time locally. But the added insulation keeps the battery warmer.

aventineavenue said:
WetEV said:
Same 35 mile EV range? OK, but that doesn't mean the same battery capacity. That's about 3000 battery full cycles...The interesting question is how is EB's Volt still getting the same range on a reduced battery capacity?

The Volt never does full cycles. It can't.

Most Leaf drivers usually don't go below LBW, so they usually do a 75% cycle or less. The life of a battery is often quoted in "full cycles", even if the battery is only doing a 50% or an 80% cycle.

Correction: A Volt with 16 kWh battery, at 110k miles of electric driving at 3 miles per kWh is at about 2300 cycles, not almost 3000. Still a lot of cycles. Question still stands. How does the range stay the same on a reduced battery capacity?
 
The GM design spec calls for 82% capacity retention at 150k EV miles for a gen1 Volt; improved to 87% for gen2. For Eric's gen1 Volt car at 110k EV miles, GM would expect an average of 86% capacity retention. Eric might not notice a 10-15% capacity difference from when the car was new. source: http://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-volt-technical-battery-slides-video/
 
WetEV said:
The climate mostly does keep the battery 45F to 85F here. My battery has only rarely been over 81F. TMS would have done almost nothing to reduce the high temperature exposure.

I think you forget that batteries and their adjacent circuits heat up internally when being both discharged and charged/regen (especially quick charging) Ask a Tesla (or GM) engineer why their cars use it, and they's explain it doesn't juts operate base don ambient temp, rather on battery core temp, with multiple sensors.

Most Leaf drivers usually don't go below LBW, so they usually do a 75% cycle or less. The life of a battery is often quoted in "full cycles", even if the battery is only doing a 50% or an 80% cycle.

WetEV said:
How does the range stay the same on a reduced battery capacity?

I think the wrong question is being asked; because the assumption is that the Volts with high mileage have double digit % reduced capacity just because similar age/mileage LEAFs do. I think the fact (that as some have measured, you'd have to ask them how) these Volts have something on the order of 1/2 of 1% capacity loss speaks volumes to the effectiveness of the TMS and SOC management...and perhaps the hard carbon anode as well, in terms of calendar like (for that we need another 5-10 years to really know).
 
RegGuheert said:
Total gasoline burned = 205,000 miles / 35 miles/gallon = 5,857 gallons...Electricity cost = 27,500 kWh * 0.10 $/kWh = $2,750

Two incorrect assumptions, leading to incorrect conclusions about Volt vs Prius in this scenario. Erick in fact has average 38 mpg for the 200k+ hybrid miles, and a lifetime 59 mpg total gasoline consumption basis. (see voltstats dot net for full details on Sparkie the Volt) And he has workplace charging as a benefit so electric costs are less to him. But more importantly:

1) The Volt's intended purpose is simply to reduce gasoline consumption.
2) Erick/Sparkie still reduced gasoline consumption by 20% over a Prius. And he doesn't "hypermile", the Volt, like the LEAF and unlike the Prius is fun to drive! :)
3) The LEAF in the OP (and its 24kWh manufacturing impact) is now end of life at 150k miles (it was actually at end of life at 100k or sooner, as 70% capacity defines end of automotive life for a PEV), wheras the Volt has done over twice the total mileage while reducing gasoline consumption over a Prius, and will almost certainly exceed 150,000 EV miles...from a battery ~2/3 the size (therefore ~2/3 the manufacturing impact)

True that total net life cycle *emissions* for Erick between his Volt (Ohio electric + gas) and a Prius are probably close to a wash...but again, that's not the purpose of the car, rather as stated, it's to reduce gasoline consumption. And it may also save the driver $ over any gasoline only car, including the Prius (Erick's wife is an accountant, she did the numbers, and their Volt's total cost of ownership at this point is WAY lower than a '12 Prius would have been)
 
aventineavenue said:
WetEV said:
The climate mostly does keep the battery 45F to 85F here. My battery has only rarely been over 81F. TMS would have done almost nothing to reduce the high temperature exposure.

I think you forget that batteries and their adjacent circuits heat up internally when being both discharged and charged/regen (especially quick charging) Ask a Tesla (or GM) engineer why their cars use it, and they's explain it doesn't juts operate base don ambient temp, rather on battery core temp, with multiple sensors.

Several different aftermarket apps allow for reading the sensors in the battery pack in the Leaf. Not just ambient. 19.1C, 18.7C and 17.4C this morning, I'm too lazy to convert to F. Yes, I've seen the battery get hotter while charging and get hotter while driving when the air temperature is close to the battery pack temperature. I've also seen the battery get cooler while driving. TMS is not useful for cool climates and stable chemistry batteries. I agree that TMS is useful for hot places, and for unstable batteries that can undergo thermal runaway if not cooled.

Tesla uses a high energy density battery chemistry that can undergo thermal runaway. They need to actively cool the battery to prevent the car from torching. Isn't this true of GM Volt as well?

aventineavenue said:
WetEV said:
How does the range stay the same on a reduced battery capacity?

I think the wrong question is being asked; because the assumption is that the Volts with high mileage have double digit % reduced capacity just because similar age/mileage LEAFs do.

The assumption is that Volt batteries will degrade like all Li-ion batteries do. There is no magic, only engineering. Now I do agree that the Volt probably does have better chemistry for longer life, but not that much better.


aventineavenue said:
I think the fact (that as some have measured, you'd have to ask them how) these Volts have something on the order of 1/2 of 1% capacity loss

Not believable.
 
WetEV said:
Tesla uses a high energy density battery chemistry that can undergo thermal runaway. They need to actively cool the battery to prevent the car from torching. Isn't this true of GM Volt as well?

No, it's not, except for the hard carbon anode and some other design choices, Volt and LEAF batteries (as well as BMW i3) and most EVs are teh same chemistry, Lithium Manganese Oxide (spinel): LiMn2O4, which is safer then Teslas. Dispute it all you want, the fact is the Volt's TMS is for overall battery temperature management, not just hot climate abatement. This is a matter of engineering record.

WetEV said:
The assumption is that Volt batteries will degrade like all Li-ion batteries do. There is no magic, only engineering. Now I do agree that the Volt probably does have better chemistry for longer life, but not that much better.

Again, except for the hard carbon anode in the Volt (known to extend calendar life), the LEAF and Volt battery chemistry are exactly the same. The only difference is the pack design engineering, insulation, and liquid TMS/SOC management. So it's almost a controlled experiment of same chemistry with and without engineering.

aventineavenue said:
I think the fact (that as some have measured, you'd have to ask them how) these Volts have something on the order of 1/2 of 1% capacity loss

WetEV said:
Not believable.

I suggest you do some research on the Volts with over 75,000 EV miles (~15 of which you can view on voltstats dot net, including mine) and you'll see that it's (very low degradation %) not only believable, it's actually true. But whether it's 1%, 2% or 5% or more doesn't really matter, as long as the vehicle's range and performance remains identical to when new. >10% and it would almost certain become evident. So...If/when it starts to drop off, then the degradation becomes meaningful, just as it is for a LEAF, except in the Volt's case it would typically result in greater gasoline usage rather than simply more frequent charging. To date, I have not seen a single confirmed report of this...and I have been looking for years.
 
Congrats on getting so many miles on the Leaf!!! That is a real accomplishment. And it sounds like you saved a ton of money too. :D

Interesting how a posting about such an accomplishment evolved into a several page debate between Leaf/Volt/Prius and their respective merits/demerits.

Any chance Nissan will certify you as first to 150k? I remember Mercedes doing a commercial involving a guy who took his car to 1 million. Could be a good way to launch Leaf 2.0 (hint, hint).
 
DarthPuppy said:
Congrats on getting so many miles on the Leaf!!! That is a real accomplishment. And it sounds like you saved a ton of money too. :D

Interesting how a posting about such an accomplishment evolved into a several page debate between Leaf/Volt/Prius and their respective merits/demerits.

Any chance Nissan will certify you as first to 150k? I remember Mercedes doing a commercial involving a guy who took his car to 1 million. Could be a good way to launch Leaf 2.0 (hint, hint).

Agreed, a great accomplishment turns into a debate. How unusual!
 
You only had to change the tires once? At what mileage?

Anyone with data on average range of the tires that come with the car? I understand brakes last longer on hybrids and EVs but don't understand why tires would be a saving point vs an ICE.
 
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