people getting rid of their Leafs/EVs/PHEVs and going back to ICEVs

dm33 said:

We ordered a Mini Cooper in January, it arrived this past week and we bought it yesterday. Starting the return process for the LEAF.
A real shame. I never thought I'd go back to an ICE. Feels like such a step backwards. But 2016 rates have been too high, there's still a new 2015 for sale for too much, our residual is still almost $20,000. And my commute is potentially more erratic requiring much longer range. No long range option yet available.
I hope I can get back into an EV without losing my shirt on the Mini. We may get a Pacifica EV to replace our 10yr old Grand Caravan, although its still doing well at 140k.

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sounds like the too common issue of nonexistent public charging support. yeah, got that here too. it sucks and its getting worse, not better. the glow of federal funding for the initial installs has long since faded to black.

Now I know how people without a penny to their name feel when they go on a game show and win a car only to be told they can't have the car until they pay the sales tax...

dm33 said:

We ordered a Mini Cooper in January, it arrived this past week and we bought it yesterday. Starting the return process for the LEAF.
A real shame. I never thought I'd go back to an ICE. Feels like such a step backwards. But 2016 rates have been too high, there's still a new 2015 for sale for too much, our residual is still almost $20,000. And my commute is potentially more erratic requiring much longer range. No long range option yet available.
I hope I can get back into an EV without losing my shirt on the Mini. We may get a Pacifica EV to replace our 10yr old Grand Caravan, although its still doing well at 140k.

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Sometimes when I'm pumping a whole $17 worth of gas into the Sentra I'm reminded why most people don't think any of this is worth the bother. The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Sometimes when I'm pumping a whole $17 worth of gas into the Sentra I'm reminded why most people don't think any of this is worth the bother. The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.

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Indeed. I have no Sentra, but have to admit then I'm going distances that are out of range for my Leaf w/any (reliable or not) charging at the destinations, I find driving my Prius or any ICEV rather liberating. No need to worry about not running out of fuel, not running the heat, having to go slower, etc.

Your gas prices in FL per http://fuelgaugereport.com/ are currently about 60 cents/gal lower than mine though. On an EV Facebook group recently, someone in a thread commented "EVERYBODY wants EVs". Uhh... right, so I replied with http://www.hybridcars.com/february-2016-dashboard/ showing a Battery Electric Take-Rate of 0.33% for that month with 4,424 BEVs sold in the US that month. I also believed I included http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/03/usa-auto-sales-by-model-every-vehicle-february-2016-ytd.html, for comparison of monthly vehicle sales.

So yeah, not many people care. And, if there were no incentives (e.g. tax credits, rebates, carpool lane stickers, etc.), even fewer people would care.

cwerdna said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

Sometimes when I'm pumping a whole $17 worth of gas into the Sentra I'm reminded why most people don't think any of this is worth the bother. The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.

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Indeed. I have no Sentra, but have to admit then I'm going distances that are out of range for my Leaf w/any (reliable or not) charging at the destinations, I find driving my Prius or any ICEV rather liberating. No need to worry about not running out of fuel, not running the heat, having to go slower, etc.

Your gas prices in FL per http://fuelgaugereport.com/ are currently about 60 cents/gal lower than mine though. On an EV Facebook group recently, someone in a thread commented "EVERYBODY wants EVs". Uhh... right, so I replied with http://www.hybridcars.com/february-2016-dashboard/ showing a Battery Electric Take-Rate of 0.33% for that month with 4,424 BEVs sold in the US that month. I also believed I included http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/03/usa-auto-sales-by-model-every-vehicle-february-2016-ytd.html, for comparison of monthly vehicle sales.

So yeah, not many people care. And, if there were no incentives (e.g. tax credits, rebates, carpool lane stickers, etc.), even fewer people would care.

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I drive company cars all the time and I do feel a small sense of "Hell with it" as far as speed, heat, etc. but not sure its a good feeling. Like a drug, the high is awesome, fleeting and hard to maintain. The letdown is hard and always leaves me feeling much worse. The high is simply not worth it

My Volt lease is nearing its end, another possible option for me is to buy that out. That will be costlier than picking up a used LEAF though, but perhaps for good reason. The collective wisdom of the market and Bob Lutz seem to have gotten this one right.

LTLFTcomposite said:

The value proposition just isn't there on new LEAFs; I'm still trying to decide if it is on a used one. When you see an asking price of $9k on car with 20k miles in pristine condition that had a sticker of $33k just two years earlier you're reminded that market forces are tough to overcome, and pretty much nobody cares about the EV revolution.

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How is the following for value proposition?

I bought a loaded SL W/Premium back in November. It had a MSRP of $38,xxx. Negotiated it down $11,000, $6000 dealer discount and $5000 NMAC cash applied. It cost me $27,000 plus tax. I just filed my 2015 Federal tax return and already received my $8,255 tax refund of which $7,500 was because of my Leaf purchase. Basically my Leaf cost me about $21,000 net after factoring with sales tax and federal tax credit. Not bad for a $38,000 car. Once tax credits are exhausted things will change.

I kick myself for not waiting a little longer because I could have saved another $4,000-$5,000. Right now I can buy a 2015 SL W/premium for $22,950 and still have tax credit of $7,500. These are never registered Nissan owned Leafs. http://www.wayzatanissan.com/used/Nissan/2015-Nissan-Leaf-f2f3e7700a0e0a1704ec476a43c6bf6d.htm this Leaf would only cost me net of $16,300 after adding $850 shipping to Florida and $7,500 federal tax credit.

With more affordable 200+ mile EVs about to land on our laps, for me personally, I would not go back. I have never purchased cars new, but the BOLT looks very tempting... They may be in such high demand that a year old car may still hold a high value.

A Tesla 3 is tempting but when will it make it to market and extras add up fast. Nissan is playing catch-up and who knows now what's in their near future pipeline. I still have plenty of gas vehicles but they don't get driven. My Jeep tows the boat and travel trailer and my Harley with sidecar is fun but neither get used much now. I have thought of converting Harley to hybrid.

My other gassers just sit rotting away in the sun... I have no need for a hybrid, except for a truck, unless a pure electric truck comes out at an affordable price and great range.

The Leaf will not have enough range to do my commute as soon as winter hits. I didn't understand when I bought it that it was a disposable car and would be essentially worthless after five years. I bought a a Prius when it became obvious that the Leaf's battery was degrading rapidly, so I'll switch to it this fall and give the Leaf to charity or sell it cheaply. I'll be retiring soon and refuse to buy anything that I can't count on for at least ten years of usefulness.

-Karl

Flyct said:

How is the following for value proposition?
...
Basically my Leaf cost me about $21,000 net after factoring with sales tax and federal tax credit. Not bad for a $38,000 car.

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Pretty poor I think. The problem is it isn't a $38,000 car, looking beyond its limitations it's probably a $20k car at best that just happens to have a bogus MSRP on the window sticker. In a couple years it will be worth $7k on a trade, $10k retail.

DaveinOlyWA said:

I drive company cars all the time and I do feel a small sense of "Hell with it" as far as speed, heat, etc. but not sure its a good feeling. Like a drug, the high is awesome, fleeting and hard to maintain. The letdown is hard and always leaves me feeling much worse. The high is simply not worth it

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I guess to each his/her own.

I gave examples at http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=451322#p451322 and http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=445234#p445234 where even if my current Leaf had CHAdeMO (my previous one did), it adds a lot of inconvenience, time wasted and awkwardness (for lack of a better word), if on a date.

Oh yes, I had no time to type this earlier: fortunately, I primarily charge for free at work. On Fridays/weekends, I sometimes use some free public L2 charging. If I didn't have that and were charging only at home, I'd also have to reconsider since PG&E's electricity is so expensive due to the tiers they set being a joke, high rates and byzantine rate structure (page 1 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf and page 2 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf). It's too hard to compute costs with E-6 since there's pushing oneself into higher tiers means electricity at all times of day is more $.

If only charged at home, I know I'd be pushed all the way into tiers 3 (25.4 cents/kWh) and 4 (37.442 cents/kWh). I listed the E-1 rates. Using E-1 for simplicity's sake, at 25.4 cents/kWh, if I achieve 3.5 miles/kWh out of the wall (I can only L1 charge at home), that's ~7.26 cents/mile. At 37.442 cents/kWh, that's 10.6 cents/mile.

If gas cost me $3/gal and I only achieved 40 mpg on my Prius, that'd be only 7.5 cents/mile, all anxiety free.

I forgot about another guy at work who I don't see much anymore. He had a '11 or '12 Leaf because of his girlfriend's work or something (company car?). I think she left that job or she had to turn that car in, for whatever reason. So, no more Leaf for him. I believe this is over a year ago. When I do see him, sometimes ask if he's going to get another Leaf or EV. He doesn't seem interested at all or (IIRC) gives some excuse of "no time".

Another guy at my work had a Fiat 500e and would sometimes drive it to work. His wife drives it now and I believe she benefits from HOV stickers and free parking at train stations. So, he didn't technically get rid of it. He's now driving a leased Porsche 911. He was never an EV enthusiast.

Evoforce said:

With more affordable 200+ mile EVs about to land on our laps, for me personally, I would not go back. I have never purchased cars new, but the BOLT looks very tempting... They may be in such high demand that a year old car may still hold a high value.

A Tesla 3 is tempting but when will it make it to market and extras add up fast. Nissan is playing catch-up and who knows now what's in their near future pipeline. I still have plenty of gas vehicles but they don't get driven. My Jeep tows the boat and travel trailer and my Harley with sidecar is fun but neither get used much now. I have thought of converting Harley to hybrid.

My other gassers just sit rotting away in the sun... I have no need for a hybrid, except for a truck, unless a pure electric truck comes out at an affordable price and great range.

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any comment on the recent rumors that the Bolt is more of a "mirror" image than reality?

For me, the Leaf has 3 main disadvantages:
1) Range - fine in the summer, not quite what I need in the winter
2) Charging network - no level 3 chargers on major routes I would like to travel a half dozen times a year
3) Battery degradation - summer range won't even be enough for me an a few years

I will not go back to ICE. That leaves the Bolt and Model 3 as known upcoming EV's with longer range. Both have enough range for me year round and should have much less battery degradation than the Leaf. The Bolt is likely out due to a lack of CCS fast chargers, so a Model 3 with supercharger access (or a CPO Model S in a couple of years) may be my next car by default.

Tesla seems to be the only manufacturer that understands the importance of a rapid charging network in EV adoption.

cwerdna said:

I forgot about another guy at work who I don't see much anymore. He had a '11 or '12 Leaf because of his girlfriend's work or something (company car?). I think she left that job or she had to turn that car in, for whatever reason. So, no more Leaf for him. I believe this is over a year ago. When I do see him, sometimes ask if he's going to get another Leaf or EV. He doesn't seem interested at all or (IIRC) gives some excuse of "no time".

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I spoke to the above guy the other day. He still has no EV and still doesn't seem to care. He also driver a 4Runner now. The girlfriend is now his wife.

I said to him that he's not an EV enthusiast, to which he claimed he is. I countered, "well, you don't have one now and you don't seem to care to get one." He then mentioned how gas prices are cheap now, mentioned BMWs as being "cool" or something like that and mentioned I think the M3 and 635i. He seems to want a 6-series.

He mentions if they need to go on a long-road trip, they'd take his wife's PiP, for which she didn't bother get to green HOV stickers. CA has hit the issuance limit and it's not looking likely the cap will be raised again.

Can you imagine the general apathy outside of strong EV/PHEV regions? I'm in California, in Silicon Valley!

At last check, we had over 190 plug-in vehicles on our internal list at work and PLENTY of charging stations at work. Not all of them show up every day and some are mystery cars. And, I know some are missing from the list as well.

cwerdna said:

cwerdna said:

I forgot about another guy at work who I don't see much anymore. He had a '11 or '12 Leaf because of his girlfriend's work or something (company car?). I think she left that job or she had to turn that car in, for whatever reason. So, no more Leaf for him. I believe this is over a year ago. When I do see him, sometimes ask if he's going to get another Leaf or EV. He doesn't seem interested at all or (IIRC) gives some excuse of "no time".

Click to expand...

I spoke to the above guy the other day. He still has no EV and still doesn't seem to care. He also driver a 4Runner now. The girlfriend is now his wife.

I said to him that he's not an EV enthusiast, to which he claimed he is. I countered, "well, you don't have one now and you don't seem to care to get one." He then mentioned how gas prices are cheap now, mentioned BMWs as being "cool" or something like that and mentioned I think the M3 and 635i. He seems to want a 6-series.

He mentions if they need to go on a long-road trip, they'd take his wife's PiP, for which she didn't bother get to green HOV stickers. CA has hit the issuance limit and it's not looking likely the cap will be raised again.

Can you imagine the general apathy outside of strong EV/PHEV regions? I'm in California, in Silicon Valley!

At last check, we had over 190 plug-in vehicles on our internal list at work and PLENTY of charging stations at work. Not all of them show up every day and some are mystery cars. And, I know some are missing from the list as well.

Click to expand...

I understand people going back to gas, but this guy considers himself an enthusiast? That's a hard pill to swallow.

One of the PiP drivers I work with has turned it in for a Rav4. Another PiP driver never plugs in. But the old PiP was the weakest plug-in on the market and probably captured a lot of normal Prius buyers.

GetOffYourGas said:

cwerdna said:

<snip>
Can you imagine the general apathy outside of strong EV/PHEV regions? I'm in California, in Silicon Valley!

At last check, we had over 190 plug-in vehicles on our internal list at work and PLENTY of charging stations at work. Not all of them show up every day and some are mystery cars. And, I know some are missing from the list as well.

Click to expand...

I understand people going back to gas, but this guy considers himself an enthusiast? That's a hard pill to swallow.

One of the PiP drivers I work with has turned it in for a Rav4. Another PiP driver never plugs in. But the old PiP was the weakest plug-in on the market and probably captured a lot of normal Prius buyers.

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Weak as the original PiP was as a PHEV, every used one on the market allows people who would never be able to afford a new PEV the option of getting one. IME a lot of environmentally-motivated people are students with limited incomes.

GRA said:

GetOffYourGas said:

cwerdna said:

<snip>
Can you imagine the general apathy outside of strong EV/PHEV regions? I'm in California, in Silicon Valley!

At last check, we had over 190 plug-in vehicles on our internal list at work and PLENTY of charging stations at work. Not all of them show up every day and some are mystery cars. And, I know some are missing from the list as well.

Click to expand...

I understand people going back to gas, but this guy considers himself an enthusiast? That's a hard pill to swallow.

One of the PiP drivers I work with has turned it in for a Rav4. Another PiP driver never plugs in. But the old PiP was the weakest plug-in on the market and probably captured a lot of normal Prius buyers.

Click to expand...

Weak as the original PiP was as a PHEV, every used one on the market allows people who would never be able to afford a new PEV the option of getting one. IME a lot of environmentally-motivated people are students with limited incomes.

Click to expand...

I just had this conversation with someone yesterday (buying used) as I think a growing secondary market is going to be the main way to get people into EV. I'm warming to electric cars and have just recently seriously considering getting one. However, my credit is garbage nowadays and I'm a born again full time college student in my 40's having to work part time at a grocery store - not really the best candidate for a $36K+ EV you know? Add to that fact that I drive a Fiat 500 in which I'm already getting on average, in sport mode, 36-38mpg in the city and that easily goes up into the 40's on the highway, it's really hard to justify the switch. Skipping gas stations and routine maintenance (that I usually do myself anyway) is a definite bonus. A local dealer has a low mileage 2015 Leaf that I thought about looking at, but who knows? I've seen Volts for under $12K out here and another dealer has an i-Miev for like $9600 (but I understand they've been discontinued for the U.S.). I also live in Texas and wonder how these cars would hold up in the extreme heat and more or less mandatory A/C use all the time.

I wouldn't advise anyone on a tight budget to get into the game now. Lease rates aren't good any more and you'll be stuck in a perpetual payment trap. EVs are more expensive to insure, at least for me, an extra $500/year eats up any fuel savings. If you buy with the intent of long term ownership you face an uncertain future down the road with battery degradation, potentially costly repairs and ridiculous depreciation that can leave you trapped upside down in a car that won't get you to work.
The technology is exciting and the future is bright, but leave it a while longer to early adopter folks with deeper pockets.

LTLFTcomposite said:

I wouldn't advise anyone on a tight budget to get into the game now. Lease rates aren't good any more and you'll be stuck in a perpetual payment trap. EVs are more expensive to insure, at least for me, an extra $500/year eats up any fuel savings. If you buy with the intent of long term ownership you face an uncertain future down the road with battery degradation, potentially costly repairs and ridiculous depreciation that can leave you trapped upside down in a car that won't get you to work.
The technology is exciting and the future is bright, but leave it a while longer to early adopter folks with deeper pockets.

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That's the vibe I'm getting the more I read up on them.

tattoogunman said:

I just had this conversation with someone yesterday (buying used) as I think a growing secondary market is going to be the main way to get people into EV. I'm warming to electric cars and have just recently seriously considering getting one. However, my credit is garbage nowadays and I'm a born again full time college student in my 40's having to work part time at a grocery store - not really the best candidate for a $36K+ EV you know? Add to that fact that I drive a Fiat 500 in which I'm already getting on average, in sport mode, 36-38mpg in the city and that easily goes up into the 40's on the highway, it's really hard to justify the switch. Skipping gas stations and routine maintenance (that I usually do myself anyway) is a definite bonus. A local dealer has a low mileage 2015 Leaf that I thought about looking at, but who knows? I've seen Volts for under $12K out here and another dealer has an i-Miev for like $9600 (but I understand they've been discontinued for the U.S.). I also live in Texas and wonder how these cars would hold up in the extreme heat and more or less mandatory A/C use all the time.

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Good for you, getting back in the game like that in your 40s! You're an inspiration!

I mostly agree with LTLFTcomposite. If your Fiat is running well and requires no major service, I highly recommend waiting until you actually need a car. Your cheapest option is to keep the 500 running well, and enjoy averaging 35-40 MPG on a tank.

If you do dabble in EVs, I'd personally recommend a used Volt. Especially if you can find one for <$12k. Its TMS has worked really well in hotter climates than yours, and there are signs that the car should easily last 20 years / 300,000 miles on the original battery. Even if the AER eventually degrades, you have a generator to keep you going. Today's BEVs aren't there yet. I suspect they will be within a generation or two (only about 5-10 years from now).

HOLY CRAP!

The tone that I hear on this topic is so depressing that I am shocked a 'LEAF FORUM" would have these negative opinions!
It sounds like a bunch of Kindergarten kids at the playground who are picking up their toys and going home!

First, anyone who is "getting rid of their leaf" because of possible future problems, $500 more insurance (you must be young with marks on your driving record), "GAS IS CHEAP" or just "it's not the right time" have been seduced by the media and brainwashed.

Especially young people (under 40) are still interested in instant gratification and have never ever been exposed to the past phases of the petroleum history.

We all must embrace the right to an "alternate" fuel vehicle, while knowing that we are not increasing the petroleum shortage in the near future. I have a Leaf and it is the best car I have ever owned. Why? because I can live my life just as well as the gas guzzler public, and not spend a drop of petroleum. In the life of my Leaf, I will NOT use 10,000 gallons of petroleum (that is one gas tanker truck full).

Isnt that a reason to tolerate all of the "NEGATIVES" (which are not negatives, but current limitations) of the product we own.

This is not an all or nothing situation. In the futures, EVs will get better and better, but we must adopt the current technology as a great success. For example, the first internal combustion cars were crap, they were bicycles with motors on them with a top speed of 20 miles per hour. The first consumer computers were crap, with only a green screen where you could just type. BUT these early products were magic because they could do something that could never be done before..... The EV is MAGIC, and I personally will be "IN" on this roller coaster ride for the rest of my life..

Years from now everyone will be saying, "Remember the Leaf?", and you could say that your were part of that!!