2016 30 kWh Battery data

You're missing the point here. We're not talking about warranty failures here. This is a new car with an advertised battery size of 30 KWH. If it was delivered with a degraded battery, he didn't get what he paid for. Furthermore, because the battery has already lost capacity it may have bad or weak cells. In either case. he ought to have it looked at. If the dealer says it's OK then he will have the complaint and the dealer's response on record. Since it's a lease battery failure is a moot point but degraded range is a concern. How he knows the battery is degraded is irrelevant.

Think of this way. You bought a new ICE car. It runs fine except that it misfires on one cylinder occasionally. Doesn't affect your gas milage much. Would you complain about it?

If the person is unhappy because the Ahr value LeafSpy displays is low compared to other 30 kWh Leafs that is not going to be a valid reason for the dealer to do anything. The dealer probably can not even see the Ahr value with their Consult 3+. It is a value that Nissan Leaf engineers can probably see in the battery data read by the Consult 3+ but the service person at a dealership can not see that level of detail.

For the dealer to care you are going to need to show a lower range on a full charge compared to what is expected for a 30 kWh Leaf.

The best option is to find the range the owner is getting on a maximum charge and compare it to the EPA estimate. If it is significantly lower then complain to the dealer that you are not getting the expected range from the 30 kWh Leaf. The dealer can then get Nissan technical people to look at the raw battery report data (not the star rating thing they give us).

Loss of range is something the dealer can understand and work with whereas Ahr means nothing to them.

jjgilham said:

I just got a 2016 SV after returning my 2013 SV at end of lease. I'm not too happy about this after 3 weeks.

AHr=74.46
SOH= 93%
Hx=89.50%
odo=967 mi
5 QCs
19 L1/L2s

When I returned my 2013 SV with almost 43K miles on it the SOH was 88% and the Hx was 88. This appears to me to have about 2 years of degradation (at least in Seattle).

How would I complain about this? Its not like anyone at the dealer is going to know anything. Any ideas?

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you may be worried about nothing. One thing to look at is time from manufacture to pick up. If its been a short period, don't worry about it. with the exception of a few days in April, we have not had weather that would have done much of anything to your batteries.

The other thing I would look at is mileage on the car

Finally; LEAF Spy is a great device but it only reads numbers and it is pretty apparent that the numbers don't start in the same place AND can be manipulated. I have run experiments where I can move my Hx from 88 to 98% at will.

Higher numbers generally reflect a better top end balance. yours being low could indicate a good thing meaning the dealer was careful not to charge it to full capacity.

babonbangke said:

Manufacture date on the car was January 2016, we took delivery March 2016, so it did sit on the lot for a couple of months. On the flip side, it was sitting on the lot in cool winter months here in Pacific Northwest, so heat shouldn't yet be a factor. Of course, sitting at 100% charge for 2 months could be a problem.. but there's really no way to figure that out

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"could be a problem"

r u serious? it is DEFINITELY a problem! but that is your assumption and not likely what happened at the dealership.

DaveinOlyWA said:

jjgilham said:

Finally; LEAF Spy is a great device but it only reads numbers and it is pretty apparent that the numbers don't start in the same place AND can be manipulated. I have run experiments where I can move my Hx from 88 to 98% at will.

Higher numbers generally reflect a better top end balance. yours being low could indicate a good thing meaning the dealer was careful not to charge it to full capacity.

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Could you explain how you go about changing the Hx value? It might be useful for us to know how to change it and how to improve the value. It might at least explain why it changes and what the effect is on the battery.

johnlocke said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

jjgilham said:

Finally; LEAF Spy is a great device but it only reads numbers and it is pretty apparent that the numbers don't start in the same place AND can be manipulated. I have run experiments where I can move my Hx from 88 to 98% at will.

Higher numbers generally reflect a better top end balance. yours being low could indicate a good thing meaning the dealer was careful not to charge it to full capacity.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Could you explain how you go about changing the Hx value? It might be useful for us to know how to change it and how to improve the value. It might at least explain why it changes and what the effect is on the battery.

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it would be easier if you read my blog. have several entries talking about this. it also provides a lot minute details.

Part of the reason is top end balancing. the balancing is based on the voltage of the highest cell. going beyond this will cause damage to the cell if allowed to charge beyond the high end cut off, right?

Problem is that when this cell hits it, the other cells are at a varying distance below the top. This is where you see differences in GIDs and ahr.

Now keep in mind; cell balancing goes on all the time but the current is very small. This is part of the reason why the charge lights remain on after the charge has essentially ended. There will be times when the charge will reinitiate because cell balancing dropped the voltage of the highest cell sufficiently to restart it.

So top end balancing becomes critical if you need the maximum range. BUT, if you don't need the range, using the middle range of your SOC is the recommended method for increasing your long term viability. I The best way to attain good balance is deep cycle charging but must be done every day for at least 3-5 days in a row.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2016/05/april-2016-drive-report-after-36000.html

a few things to take note of; the voltage delta at 57% SOC. Now seeing this at full charge is not unusual but at half? that is good balance.

Before the experiment I was at 59 ahr, 92 Hx, Kwh available 20.0

This pix was taken after the update that shows the date so that is obvious but you can also judge by mileage as well.



here is pix from LAST year. now my stats suck right? same car, same pack, same driver, same location so what changed?

I was simply charging with a profile that likely resembles yours. charging maybe 4-5 days a week, never hitting full charge or rarely hitting full charge. SOC ranging from 20 to maybe 85% but mostly in the 30 to 70% range.

This screenshot was taken on the first full charge after only 8 days.


FINALLY; I mention this last because if I mentioned this first, you would (like most here) stop reading. I believe the LEAF BMS was reprogrammed to hold more back to enhance longevity but will also allow a deeper charge if it feels you need it. So by driving a lot of miles in a short period of time, I think I am fooling the LEAF into thinking I am on a roadtrip so because of that, the LEAF BMS is allowing more range to be available.

Sound far fetched? Well, I guess that is the advantage of having my own blog; I get to make all the rules!

Well it's the beginning of August and I've just cleared 12000 miles. Summer heat has taken a toll on my battery. I'm down to 350 GIDs and 76.4 Amp Hours. I've lost 10 GIDs in the last 3 months. Not terrible but at this rate l'll be at 70% capacity at 100,000 miles. Not low enough to rate a warranty replacement but marginal for my driving needs. On the bright side, Nissan looks to have improved their battery chemistry enough to make good on their 100K warranty.

It could be that as fall and winter roll around I might be able to recoup some capacity or at least slow the deterioration of the battery. For the first three months of the year I didn't see much loss at all so I'll have to wait and see what cooler weather brings. Of course I have to get through August and September first.

August has not been kind to my Leaf. Apparently the heat has taken its toll on the battery. I'm up to 13600 miles and the battery is down to 340 GIDs. 74.66AHr SOH 93% Hx 88.31% 17 QC 265 Lvl 2. At this rate the battery won't last over 70-75k before it has to be replaced. I don't expect September to be any better but perhaps October- March will have cooler weather and the rate of loss will slow. If I continue to lose 10 GIDs per month I could be looking at a replacement next July at only 30K. That would be a disaster for both me and Nissan. If the losses are limited to the summer months, the battery could still crap out by 60K if I continue to lose 20-30 GIDs every summer.

Is anyone else experiencing similar degradation of the battery in hot weather?

It's quiet possible heat related but on the 2015 24 Kwh a lot of people notice that ah and hx readings drop and higher mileage drivers that DC charge regularly seem to hold much higher AH, I've noticed this and when charging regularly @6.6 kw. When not at work AH and Hx readings drop along with gids, could possible be the same with the 30 Kwh.

I don't usually get the battery lower than 20-30% but a few days ago I got the charge % down to --- remaining and after a 100% charge with no end timer set to give the cells a good chance to balance which could take hours depending on how out of balance they are which is why I recommend not to set an end timer and allow it a few hours extra than you normally do....anyway I noticed that the Gids, Ah and Hx were higher. I wonder if I did that once or twice more would I get higher results ? might be worth a shot. Certainly start with several DC charges from a low SOC to as high as you can tolerate 80-90% and see if your figures go up again.

Hmm. We have two 2016 LEAF SV.

(Back story: LEAF #1 had 145 miles on it after being driven into Seattle for a car show and occasional test drives. Of course, I was concerned it was a dealer demo or customer return and thus not eligible for new car tax incentives, but verified via CarFax that it had indeed never been sold or titled. Given it had been manufactured 10/2015, having it driven is probably better than not.)

LEAF #1 (before driving home from the dealer )
Date: 6/3 Odo mi: 154.1
Gids: 353 SOH: 98% Hx: 93.49 AHr: 78.646
L1/L2s: 6 QC: 5
---
LEAF #1 (two weeks later... :shock: )
Date: 6/15 Odo mi: 508.9
Gids: 337 SOH: 93% Hx: 89.92 AHr: 74.457
L1/L2s: 18 QC: 5
---
LEAF #1 (most recent full charge )
Date: 8/31 Odo mi: 2374.3
Gids: 348 SOH: 95% Hx: 90.86 AHr: 75.8
L1/L2s: 88 QCs: 10
Balance: 11 mV

What brought the stats back up was some mountain driving (4000' pass with two QCs and one 100% L2 that day, with a peak battery pack temp of 117F), plus occasional QCs in the subsequent week. Each QC seemed to bump the SOH up a percentage point, and there they have stayed since. I've also learned to store the car at 40-50% SOC if storing for a week or longer... it holds the stats better, vs. a leaving it at a higher SOC.

The other 2016 SV was built on 2/16. While I don't have LeafSpy number from the drive-off day, I do have a few "core samples" for comparison with mine. The stats are now fairly close between the two cars.

LEAF #2
Date 6/11 Odo mi: 401
Gids: 354 SOH: 97% Hx: 92.51% AHr: 77.37
L1/L2s: 15 QCs: 2
Balance: 19mV
---
LEAF #2
Date: 6/17 Odo mi: 492
Gids: 355 SOH: 97% Hx: 92.90% AHr: 77.75
L1/L2s: 16 QCs: 2
Balance: 18mV
---
LEAF #2
Date: 7/21 Odo mi: 1253
Gids: 348 SOH: 95% Hx: 91.09% AHr: 76.05
L1/L2s: 34 QCs: 2
Balance: 14 mV

At some point, it really comes down to just enjoying the car. All Li-Ion packs degrade over time and cycles with various factors affecting the rate of decline, but it's not like it's going to leak oil or fail emission tests. I suspect the capacity warranty is a pretty good guess on how Nissan expects these batteries to perform: 96 months / 100k miles to no fewer than 9 capacity bars. Time will tell, and by that time, there will be some tempting alternatives.

gshepherd said:

Hmm. We have two 2016 LEAF SV.

(Back story: LEAF #1 had 145 miles on it after being driven into Seattle for a car show and occasional test drives. Of course, I was concerned it was a dealer demo or customer return and thus not eligible for new car tax incentives, but verified via CarFax that it had indeed never been sold or titled. Given it had been manufactured 10/2015, having it driven is probably better than not.)

LEAF #1 (before driving home from the dealer )
Date: 6/3 Odo mi: 154.1
Gids: 353 SOH: 98% Hx: 93.49 AHr: 78.646
L1/L2s: 6 QC: 5
---
LEAF #1 (two weeks later... :shock: )
Date: 6/15 Odo mi: 508.9
Gids: 337 SOH: 93% Hx: 89.92 AHr: 74.457
L1/L2s: 18 QC: 5
---
LEAF #1 (most recent full charge )
Date: 8/31 Odo mi: 2374.3
Gids: 348 SOH: 95% Hx: 90.86 AHr: 75.8
L1/L2s: 88 QCs: 10
Balance: 11 mV

What brought the stats back up was some mountain driving (4000' pass with two QCs and one 100% L2 that day, with a peak battery pack temp of 117F), plus occasional QCs in the subsequent week. Each QC seemed to bump the SOH up a percentage point, and there they have stayed since. I've also learned to store the car at 40-50% SOC if storing for a week or longer... it holds the stats better, vs. a leaving it at a higher SOC.

The other 2016 SV was built on 2/16. While I don't have LeafSpy number from the drive-off day, I do have a few "core samples" for comparison with mine. The stats are now fairly close between the two cars.

LEAF #2
Date 6/11 Odo mi: 401
Gids: 354 SOH: 97% Hx: 92.51% AHr: 77.37
L1/L2s: 15 QCs: 2
Balance: 19mV
---
LEAF #2
Date: 6/17 Odo mi: 492
Gids: 355 SOH: 97% Hx: 92.90% AHr: 77.75
L1/L2s: 16 QCs: 2
Balance: 18mV
---
LEAF #2
Date: 7/21 Odo mi: 1253
Gids: 348 SOH: 95% Hx: 91.09% AHr: 76.05
L1/L2s: 34 QCs: 2
Balance: 14 mV

At some point, it really comes down to just enjoying the car. All Li-Ion packs degrade over time and cycles with various factors affecting the rate of decline, but it's not like it's going to leak oil or fail emission tests. I suspect the capacity warranty is a pretty good guess on how Nissan expects these batteries to perform: 96 months / 100k miles to no fewer than 9 capacity bars. Time will tell, and by that time, there will be some tempting alternatives.

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Thanks for the info. Starting GIDs on new 30KWH batteries has been hard to come by. I suspect that's due to low sales volume in general. I actually appear to gotten "pick of the Litter" just by accident. I started with 363 GIDs and 79AH. With nearly 14000 mi on the car I'm still at 340-342 GIDs. 75AH and 95% SOH which isn't far off of where you are now. Considering that San Diego East County is a far less benign environment I'm doing OK.

I'm hesitant to do any QC's right now since the weather is still in the 90's and a QC from 15-20% will raise the battery temp's by another 20 degrees. I have heated the battery up to 117 degrees during a QC and I don't think that can be good for it. I will try it once the weather cools off. I normally charge when I get home from morning errands unless it's really hot, then I wait till the evening. In all truth though, the battery has such a high thermal mass that it doesn't really cool off just sitting unless there's a 15-20 degree difference between the air temp and battery temp.

This is supposed to be a 100,000mi+ car for me. If the battery craps out early on me, Nissan will have replace the battery and I'll drive it until the second battery dies. That's 6-8 years from now and hopefully there will be more and better choices. A low milage S or an off-lease 3 come to mind and who knows what Ford or BMW may come up with. In the meantime, I've got a level 2 charger installed and additional solar panels on order. With the new panels installed my production cost will drop to $.05/KWH and the cost to operate comes down to replacing tires and brakes. I committed to an Electric as a replacement at least for a daily commuter or town car.

johnlocke said:

Thanks for the info. Starting GIDs on new 30KWH batteries has been hard to come by. I suspect that's due to low sales volume in general. I actually appear to gotten "pick of the Litter" just by accident. I started with 363 GIDs and 79AH. With nearly 14000 mi on the car I'm still at 340-342 GIDs. 75AH and 95% SOH which isn't far off of where you are now. Considering that San Diego East County is a far less benign environment I'm doing OK.

I'm hesitant to do any QC's right now since the weather is still in the 90's and a QC from 15-20% will raise the battery temp's by another 20 degrees. I have heated the battery up to 117 degrees during a QC and I don't think that can be good for it. I will try it once the weather cools off. I normally charge when I get home from morning errands unless it's really hot, then I wait till the evening. In all truth though, the battery has such a high thermal mass that it doesn't really cool off just sitting unless there's a 15-20 degree difference between the air temp and battery temp.

This is supposed to be a 100,000mi+ car for me. If the battery craps out early on me, Nissan will have replace the battery and I'll drive it until the second battery dies. That's 6-8 years from now and hopefully there will be more and better choices. A low milage S or an off-lease 3 come to mind and who knows what Ford or BMW may come up with. In the meantime, I've got a level 2 charger installed and additional solar panels on order. With the new panels installed my production cost will drop to $.05/KWH and the cost to operate comes down to replacing tires and brakes. I committed to an Electric as a replacement at least for a daily commuter or town car.

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Yes, sounds like you got a very fresh LEAF. Are available Gids at 100% charge temperature dependent? My battery on day of delivery was sitting at 65F with 27.4 kWh available.

I expect this car to last me 10 years, although I may sell it before then and upgrade to a more compelling EV (model 3 reservation holder). For the 2016 pricing combined with local and Federal incentives, it made the most sense to LEAF it for now.

gshepherd said:

Yes, sounds like you got a very fresh LEAF. Are available Gids at 100% charge temperature dependent? My battery on day of delivery was sitting at 65F with 27.4 kWh available.

I expect this car to last me 10 years, although I may sell it before then and upgrade to a more compelling EV (model 3 reservation holder). For the 2016 pricing combined with local and Federal incentives, it made the most sense to LEAF it for now.

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As far as I can tell available GIDs is not temp related. I've charged it up this summer in cooler weather with the battery 10-15 degrees cooler and gotten similar results as with a hot battery. My suspicion is that battery degradation is mostly a function of temperature. For instance batteries in the UK and Ireland seem to show little or no degradation while batteries in the southwest US degrade much faster. I had hoped that a larger battery with new chemistry would do the trick but that doesn't seem to be the case. If my experience is typical, batteries in hot areas are going to fail before the warranty expires. If I lived in San Diego proper instead of out in the mountains, I think that the battery would last 100,000 mi although probably just barely. They have improved the chemistry. Just not enough. It's the guinea pig syndrome, and I knew that going in. TMS for the battery is going to be one of the selling points i'll be looking for next time around. A range guarantee at 100,000 mi (say something like 140 mi on a level road or 33.6KWH min capacity at 100,000 mi) not some vague not less than 9 bars crap is another thing I'll be looking for.

The incentives were important to me as well but the big payoff is the low operating costs. I was spending $300-350 a month on gas for my Maxima plus oil changes, air filters, etc. Electric for the Leaf is less than $50 a month now and after I add new solar panels it will be $20 a month. Even if I have to buy a battery at 100,000 mi it will still be as cheap as operating a hybrid. If I get a free battery at 70k or so then I'm good to 140k and I definitely got my money's worth.

Just looked up the Stats for the 2016 Leaf. Looks like they sold about 8000 cars this year so far. What I couldn't find out is how many of those were SL's or SV's which would have the 30 KWH battery. I suspect that the answer is most of them. Local dealer inventory is full of S's with just a few SL's or SV's. I know that Nissan is managing their inventory closely so there may not be a fire sale on Leaf's this year. I'd like to hear from some other owners about their experiences with the 2016 Leaf. Also no word on the 2017 models. I've heard rumors of a 40 KWH battery , a 60 KWH battery, and even a hybrid replacement for the Leaf. Given that the Chevy Bolt is 60 KWH and the Tesla Model 3 is 60 KWH I'd bet on 60 KWH for the new Leaf but I suspect that it won't arrive until next spring as an early 2018 model and Nissan will just keep selling 2016's until then.

The rumor most likely to be true is that of a 2017 40KWH Leaf with a 140 mile range, to get the existing platform through until Leaf 2 in 2018. They had better price it substantially lower than the Bolt, though.

When was the 30 Kwh officially announced last year ? I don't remember. I do remember though that deliveries of the 30 Kwh didn't begin here in Ireland until about March due to a "software" problem.

I wonder if there is a 40 Kwh will it use LG Chem cells ? and will they just continue to manufacture the 24-30 Kwh themselves until they sell off their stake in NEC ?

I remember reading something where Nissan said they will electrify their entire fleet in 2020 and they won't go down the road of plug-ins.

I remember reading something where Nissan said they will electrify their entire fleet in 2020 and they won't go down the road of plug-ins.

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That sounds like pure (?) rumor. They couldn't do that in that time frame if they desperately wanted to, and I assure you that they don't. Volvo is planning to make most of their cars available as PHEVs, and Nissan plans several PHEVs, but that's the most electrification of which I'm aware.

LeftieBiker said:

I remember reading something where Nissan said they will electrify their entire fleet in 2020 and they won't go down the road of plug-ins.

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That sounds like pure (?) rumor. They couldn't do that in that time frame if they desperately wanted to, and I assure you that they don't. Volvo is planning to make most of their cars available as PHEVs, and Nissan plans several PHEVs, but that's the most electrification of which I'm aware.

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Sorry I actually meant to say have an electric "option" for their entire fleet not that they'd only have electric.

I do remember reading where Nissan were quoted saying they believe plug in isn't the direction they now want to go. I'll see if I can find it later.

o00scorpion00o said:

When was the 30 Kwh officially announced last year ? I don't remember. I do remember though that deliveries of the 30 Kwh didn't begin here in Ireland until about March due to a "software" problem.

I wonder if there is a 40 Kwh will it use LG Chem cells ? and will they just continue to manufacture the 24-30 Kwh themselves until they sell off their stake in NEC ?

I remember reading something where Nissan said they will electrify their entire fleet in 2020 and they won't go down the road of plug-ins.

Click to expand...

The official announcement was in September but there weren't any deliveries to the dealers until late November and those were fully equipped SL's with all the bells and whistles. I dragged my feet waiting for an SV because I didn't want leather seats but ended up buying an SL in mid December anyway. I wonder if the 40 KWH battery would be compatible with the 30KWH or would they change the BMS yet again. It would be nice to have an upgrade path after 100K if I decide to replace the battery rather than trade up. I doubt that I'd buy a 30 KWH battery but a 40 KWH battery refresh of the car would be tempting particularly if the cost was $6K or less. That might be cheaper than trading up to a used Leaf 2 or a Tesla 3 and the 140 mile range would work for my needs. I'm used to driving cars for 150-200K mi. I normally only sell them when I get tired of fixing them and decide that they're too unreliable to keep driving.

o00scorpion00o said:

When was the 30 Kwh officially announced last year ? I don't remember. I do remember though that deliveries of the 30 Kwh didn't begin here in Ireland until about March due to a "software" problem.

I wonder if there is a 40 Kwh will it use LG Chem cells ? and will they just continue to manufacture the 24-30 Kwh themselves until they sell off their stake in NEC ?

I remember reading something where Nissan said they will electrify their entire fleet in 2020 and they won't go down the road of plug-ins.

Click to expand...

literally a few weeks before they hit the streets but Seattle area Facebook Group leaked the info in April and that subjected us to a TON of derision....

As far as LG goes. Hope they do a better job with EV batteries then Samsung did with their cellphone batteries as I sit here looking at my charging Note 7 wondering if if a face shield would be a wise investment...