2017 Prius Prime PHEV

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edatoakrun said:
<snip>
However, for the PHEV-to-PHEV comparison, I think you need to also consider ICE mpg, as of course both the Prime and Ioniq PHEV will have very short E range, and neither have DC charge capability, meaning both will need to burn a lot of gas, as driven by most of their owners.
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That assumes that most owners won't chose a PHEV with an AER that matches their routine daily requirements, and that seems unlikely, except for those who just want the cheapest car that qualifies for a green sticker, and they could just opt for a used PiP with them. As it is, the currently available PHEVs have AERs ranging from 13? to 97 miles, with the affordable ones ranging from 16 to 53 miles AER, so there's a fair amount of choice available. One thing seems likely IMO - Hyundai will have to drop the price of the Sonata PHEV considerably, or at least offer a de-contented version.
 
GRA said:
edatoakrun said:
<snip>
However, for the PHEV-to-PHEV comparison, I think you need to also consider ICE mpg, as of course both the Prime and Ioniq PHEV will have very short E range, and neither have DC charge capability, meaning both will need to burn a lot of gas, as driven by most of their owners.
Click to expand...
That assumes that most owners won't chose a PHEV with an AER that matches their routine daily requirements, and that seems unlikely, except for those who just want the cheapest car that qualifies for a green sticker, and they could just opt for a used PiP with them. As it is, the currently available PHEVs have AERs ranging from 13? to 97 miles, with the affordable ones ranging from 16 to 53 miles AER, so there's a fair amount of choice available. One thing seems likely IMO - Hyundai will have to drop the price of the Sonata PHEV considerably, or at least offer a de-contented version.
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Exactly. My CMax may only have 19 miles of range, but it is rarely driven more than 10 miles in a day. Unless I'm going well over 100 miles, that is. Everything in between is done with the Leaf. While the Volt's 53 mile range sounds great, for me, it would save very little gas as compared to the CMax. Never mind the fact that it is still too small to be the road-trip vehicle for a family of 4.

We need options. I don't care if the weakest option gets 9 miles of EV range, it will still fit someone's needs. There are other trade-offs to increasing range, like decreasing cargo room (and hence capability)
 
GRA said:
edatoakrun said:
<snip>
However, for the PHEV-to-PHEV comparison, I think you need to also consider ICE mpg, as of course both the Prime and Ioniq PHEV will have very short E range, and neither have DC charge capability, meaning both will need to burn a lot of gas, as driven by most of their owners.
Click to expand...
That assumes that most owners won't chose a PHEV with an AER that matches their routine daily requirements...
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No, it does not.

It does assume that most owners often drive beyond those short routine daily requirements.

If the owner of a ~ 6kWh available PHEV like the Prime has a routine daily requirement ~20 mile commute, and they have total driving needs of ~12,000 miles per year, the majority of those miles will probably be fueled by gasoline.

It's not a bad thing to drive a car that burns less gas such as a PHEV, but it is obviously a better idea to drive a car that burns no gasoline for as many of your total vehicle miles as is practical.

For the vast majority of drivers today, the superior option is a BEV.
 
Toyota should be able to sell as many of these things as it wants to in California.

A CA Prime buyer will get a $1500 state rebate, the green HOV sticker, and ~ 25 miles of E range, on top of a lower post-FTC sticker price than the hybrid Prius.

Why would any CA buyer want to pay considerably more money for the Prius base hybrid version?

Toyota positions Prius Prime as a value play

To fully understand the selling points of the new Prius Prime plug-in hybrid, pull out a calculator.

With just 25 miles of electric-only range, the newest member of the Prius family isn't going to let you play EV enthusiast for very long. Its closest competitor on the market today, the Chevrolet Volt, has enough range to let your imagination run more than twice as far, 53 clicks on the odometer.

But otherwise, the math is kind to the weirdly styled Prius...

The Prime is basically for buyers who want to dip their toes into the electric-car market but don't want to take any chances with range anxiety or pay a premium they may not be able to recover in fuel savings. For short trips, the peppy electric powertrain will let them experience the future of automobiles on a tried-and-true hybrid platform.

And since the conventional Prius hybrid is no longer eligible for federal tax credits, the base Prius Prime actually comes in priced below the base Prius, assuming the buyer qualifies for the full $4,500 tax credit...
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http://www.autonews.com/article/20161009/OEM05/310109966/toyota-positions-prius-prime-as-a-value-play
 
edatoakrun said:
Toyota should be able to sell as many of these things as it wants to in California.

A CA Prime buyer will get a $1500 state rebate, the green HOV sticker, and ~ 25 miles of E range, on top of a lower post-FTC sticker price than the hybrid Prius.

Why would any CA buyer want to pay considerably more money for the Prius base hybrid version?
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As noted in my earlier post:
Unless you simply have nowhere to charge it, you've just got to have that 5th seat or the raised cargo floor is a non-starter
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Other than those specific cases, the Prime wins.
 
edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
edatoakrun said:
<snip>
However, for the PHEV-to-PHEV comparison, I think you need to also consider ICE mpg, as of course both the Prime and Ioniq PHEV will have very short E range, and neither have DC charge capability, meaning both will need to burn a lot of gas, as driven by most of their owners.
Click to expand...
That assumes that most owners won't chose a PHEV with an AER that matches their routine daily requirements...
Click to expand...
No, it does not.

It does assume that most owners often drive beyond those short routine daily requirements.

If the owner of a ~ 6kWh available PHEV like the Prime has a routine daily requirement ~20 mile commute, and they have total driving needs of ~12,000 miles per year, the majority of those miles will probably be fueled by gasoline.
Click to expand...
Uh huh, and for those miles driven on gas well beyond the AER, most of which will be Hwy miles (I'm assuming that owners will use hold mode to maximize the AER and the ICE efficiencies), you want the highest possible mpg. The Prime gets 53 mpg Hwy, while the Volt gets 42 mpg Hwy. So, which one will use less gas over the course of the year depends on how much of your non-routine driving falls into the range between the AER and the crossover point for the car with less AER but superior Hwy mileage. If you do a lot of intra-regional driving but not much inter-regional or longer driving, the car with higher AER may use less gas; exactly the opposite is true if the majority of your non-routine driving is inter-regional or longer.

For example, if your non-routine driving is typically 100 miles between charging/refueling, then in the Prime you'd drive 25 miles on the battery, and 75 miles on gas, using about 1.4 gallons. In the Volt you'd drive 53 miles on the battery and 47 miles on gas, using about 1.1 gallons. Advantage Volt.

What if you drive 160 miles, as above? Prime, 25 miles battery + (135/53) = approx. 2.55 gallons. Volt, 53 miles battery + (107/42) = approx. 2.55 gallons. At any refueling/recharging distance beyond 160 miles, Advantage Prime. My typical road trip is 400 miles or more, often un-refueled and with nowhere to charge, so there's no question that given my mix of non-routine driving (actually, for me the road trips ARE my routine driving, but that's an outlier) the car with smaller AER but higher mpg will use less gas. People with other mixes will have their own best option.


edatoakrun said:
It's not a bad thing to drive a car that burns less gas such as a PHEV, but it is obviously a better idea to drive a car that burns no gasoline for as many of your total vehicle miles as is practical.

For the vast majority of drivers today, the superior option is a BEV.
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That's a value judgement based on your priorities and circumstances, rather than an objective measure. Not that there is one, since everyone will make judgements based on their own priorities and circumstances.
 
I rarely make predictions, but I'm going to here: In spite of low gas prices, I think that the introduction of the Prime (along with the unlimited # of Green HOV stickers) and the Bolt will take the PEV % of new car sales in California from 3% to 5% within 1 year, i.e. the end of 2017 if they are introduced in December. Check back then. We may reach 1% for the country for the whole of 2016, but I think that's more iffy.
 
Via ABG:
Kelley Blue Book Best Buys of 2017: Electric/Hybrid Car
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http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/best-buy-awards-electric-hybrid-car/2000011407/

Finally, a user-friendly plug-in for the masses

While the technology is nothing new, plug-in hybrids have yet to find their footing in the U.S. marketplace. Two key factors are behind this abstention: 1. Cost 2. Ease of use. The 2017 Toyota Prius Prime is the first PHEV to entirely resolve both issues, thus earning it a coveted KBB.com Best Buy Award over last year’s champion, the Chevrolet Volt. . . .
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Saw it at the La Auto Show today. I liked it a lot. IMO better styling than the new Prius.

Very exciting times with the options that are becoming available in 2017. :D
 
DarthPuppy said:
Saw it at the La Auto Show today. I liked it a lot. IMO better styling than the new Prius.

Very exciting times with the options that are becoming available in 2017. :D
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Haven't seen one in person, but all the photos I've seen and reviews I've read say that they've improved many of the worst points of the Prius' gen. 4 external design. Not that that's very difficult - I see lots of the latter locally, and their aesthetic assault has even numbed me to the looks of the Mirai, which only makes me cringe from some angles now.
 
Looked for a Prius Prime thread, I assume this is the one but no mention of "Prime" in the thread title, are we up to 4 gens of the Prius?.... I'd like to consider myself fairly versed in hybrids and PHEVs, heck I own 2 Leafs and a '07 Prius since new but I recently finished reading an article on the Prius Prime(gen 4??) and while I was seriously considering one to replace our aging '07 Prius, after reading the article I'd say a solid no :(
Maybe it's been mentioned before but I must have overlooked it but who in the heck thought it was a good idea to come out with a 4 passenger Prius :? Yes like the original Volt that not many people seemed to want(I sure didn't and sales were anemic in my neck of the woods) that only had 4 seats, the Prius is following Chevys lead and producing a 4 passenger Prius :roll: (why don't they make it require Premium gas while they're at it ;) )
Damn I can't believe they would do such a stupid thing, don't they realize many people probably want to occasionally seat more than 4 people and would probably not be interested in a car that didn't allow that? I mean it wouldn't have to be for 5 linebackers, just something like the Leaf which is basically just for emergencies or small kids. I'm glad Chevrolet finally got the idea and gave the gen 2 Volt 5 seats and regular gas, I hope it doesn't take Toyota that many years to figure things out.....
It's almost like when a major mfg. comes out with a new vehicle they purposely design in things that they can later correct and therefore have something current owners want requiring them to replace what they have and upgrade to a new model. I could live with the limited range, yes it's double the old PiP(which was an absolute joke IMO) but still would it have killed them to given the Prime at least a 16kwh battery to not only give the maximum tax credit but more EV range.....and another knock in my book is it's measly 3kw charger, sure with it's tiny battery it still charges the battery in little over 2 1/2 hrs but IMO since many/most?? public charging stations utilize 30a(>6.6kw) equipment why not maximize on that, heck go shopping for an hour and basically charge your car from empty to full....would it have added that much to the price?
Over the past half year I've been talking to various people about the upcoming Prime, several people were interested to the point that they were going to give it a drive when it was finally available. After notifying them it would only hold 4 passengers none were really interested, granted none were single or childless but they all showed interest that has now disappeared :(
Oh well, our current Prius is still running great and we'll probably just wait Toyota out, glad I bought my Leaf when I did, while not a perfect car by any means I haven't seen anything better since and have no current hopes I will in the near future :(
 
edatoakrun said:
jjeff said:
Looked for a Prius Prime thread, I assume this is the one but no mention of "Prime" in the thread title...
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Done.
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Thanks!
We need a thumbs up smilie, love those smilies :lol:
I didn't mind the gen 4 thing but I'd kind of lost track of all the gens and wasn't sure if gen 4 was the Prime or not, I'm guessing this thread may have been started before Toyota had even given it a name :)
 
Via GCR:
2017 Toyota Prius Prime: gas mileage, electric range review
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http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107675_2017-toyota-prius-prime-gas-mileage-review

jjeff said:
I didn't mind the gen 4 thing but I'd kind of lost track of all the gens and wasn't sure if gen 4 was the Prime or not, I'm guessing this thread may have been started before Toyota had even given it a name :)
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Yes, that's typically the case, and was so here. They eventually get changed when someone remembers to request it. :D
 

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