My Nissan Leaf does not go as far as promised

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This rant from "alembic42" has certainly been enlightening but also disturbing. According to the facts I have read, this user in 2015 bought a 4 year old used car, owned the car for almost 2 years, and put about 24K miles on it.... The particular issues are really not important at this time....

At this point the writer states that he/she does not like the car and is using very angry, and violence-prone language, including, "Making them pay". I think that this person is unrealistic about the car they bought, the costs of owning a car, and feels entitled to have all of their complaints taken care of by "someone".

A person who writes like this would either not have enough to do in their daily life to be so angry, or may have emotional issues that would require some medical, or psychiatric intervention... Their putting such feelings into writing in such a way also places them in legal jeopardy of Libel and/ or legal action from the dealer for of fear of this person being physically dangerous.

I strongly suggest that "alembic42" either "put a lid on it", or seek some counseling by a trusted person.
 
cwerdna said:
mtndrew1 said:
In every review from a reputable source on the 2011-2012 Leaf, none of the reviewers ever exceeded the 73 mile EPA rating. Car and driver, road and track, edmunds, consumer reports, autoblog, etc
http://web.archive.org/web/20130201145348/http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/testing-electric-vehicles-in-the-real-world.html achieved 81 miles on a 2011 Leaf with 2 miles left on the GOM.

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html achieved 132.0 miles at 35 mph.

I stand corrected on the Edmunds one. It balances with the others though, like Car and Driver where "average range" was 58 miles on a long-term test. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2011-nissan-leaf-sl-long-term-road-test-review

In any event, if I were the OP reading the Edmunds review, I would see 83 miles as an absolute ceiling for range on a brand new car with minimal HVAC and in sunny, moderate Southern California weather. The point stands that a trivial amount of googling for 2011-2012 Leaf reviews would have determined that 100 miles of range is a bonkers-crazy expectation for a brand new 2012 Leaf, let alone a used one. The official rating on the sticker, on NissanUSA.com, on fueleconomy.gov, etc., remains 73 miles for that car. That's a reasonable expectation from reliable sources.

Dealers lie. Dealers of affordable cars are generally staffed with people who have little interest in learning the details of their product. Dealer staff have exceptionally little real-world experience selling EVs, in my experience. The OP got a dealer who likely didn't understand their product (again, I'd be positively floored if anyone in that facility had ever driven a Leaf more than ten consecutive miles) and simultaneously wanted to say whatever was necessary to close the deal with the customer.

The OP got screwed and lied to by a car dealer. But the OP bought a used car after doing insufficient research and wants to rectify it a year after taking delivery. There is precious little consumer protection for buyers of brand new cars. There's less for used car buyers. There's even less for any buyers after a year. I would be amazed if any level of effort would result in any compensation for the OP. Give a nasty Yelp review, don't buy another car from that dealer, and chalk it up as a life lesson.

What's left is to mitigate the situation by using tools and advice from this forum. Or take the lumps, the financial hit, and get a car that works better for the situation. It's a lousy situation but there are few options to make it better.
 
One last suggestion for the OP to improve range. It's an expensive one, but if he really has to go 75MPH, then he needs to look at the 'Aero Mods' topic(s) here. The optional-in-2012 17" wheels, with smooth pieplate covers, and the other small mods, might add 5 miles or so of range at those speeds. I think I'd look at making removable rear wheel well covers, instead of just smooth hubcaps.
 
mtndrew1 said:
I'm always baffled when anyone relies on an auto dealership to do anything more complicated than exchanging a cashier's check for an automobile. If I had a nickel for all the blatantly erroneous information fed to me by car salesmen over the years I could use all my nickels to get myself a brand new Leaf.

The EPA range for your car, brand new, is 73 miles in ideal weather with minimal HVAC use. This is published all over the internet, on Nissan's website, on the car's original window sticker, on fueleconomy.gov, etc. So this is your upper ceiling on range, legally. No matter what the dealer said to you that's what the world's most perfect 2012 Leaf is capable of in perfect conditions, according to the EPA.

Your car is now missing a capacity bar meaning that it has lost at least 16% of its battery capacity. This implies that your upper ceiling on range today is about 61 miles (EPA rating, ideal weather, minimal HVAC).

If you want to "make the dealer hurt" or whatever, I'm assuming you mean to do so on legal grounds. Well, even in its degraded state, if a lawyer took your car out on a flat closed circuit tomorrow with properly inflated tires and set the cruise at a continuous 35 MPH with no HVAC and a with full charge in warm weather, it certainly would get 100+ miles of range. So can your car actually move itself 100 miles on a full charge? It sure can, with the right conditions. It's meaningless to you, but the car can propel itself 100 miles on a charge under absurd circumstances.

My opinion here is that unless you have something in writing from the dealer guaranteeing that your Leaf is somehow unique and will achieve 73, 84, or 100 miles of range with your driving style and patterns, that you have little legal recourse.

It's unfortunate, but I believe you put too much trust into the people with a vested interest in selling you a car while simultaneously doing too little to educate yourself about said car beforehand. Most of the people selling you the Leaf have probably never driven one more than ten miles. They may not have intentionally lied, they might just not understand their product and that's not a surprise given the blistering staff turnover at auto dealers. Nor do they care, as they'll forget about you about 90 seconds after you sign on the dotted line.

It's pretty common knowledge that early Leaf batteries degrade quickly, that the early Leaf heaters use a lot of power, and that the EPA published range (ideal, new) is 73 miles.

I'm of the opinion that the dealer is likely under little to no legal obligation to do anything for you, and if they do choose to try and improve your situation it's entirely due to goodwill on their part. You're at their mercy.

What you can do for yourself, given you got yourself into this predicament, is to make use of some tools widely used by the Leaf community to get the most use out of their cars. Get yourself Leafspy and learn how to use it. Make sure you have energy saving tires fitted and that they're filled at or above the rated pressure. Look for alternate routes that can reduce energy consumption. Etc. And the next time you go to buy a product in a segment you're unfamiliar with, know more about that product than anyone who works at the facility trying to sell it to you. It's a crummy system, and that's the only way I've found to protect myself.
This is one of the most well-written responses I've read in a long time on MNL. It's great to see the quality of our members! I initially skipped reading this thread due to the OP's language and angst. However, I'm glad to have returned and seen this (and several other's responses). I hope the OP takes time to re-read all of these responses and internalize.

For me, I purchased at FULL MSRP (something like $35K) back in early 2011. I didn't believe the "100 mile" range then, and knew that I'd be fine with 25 miles, even years or decades later. I've saved nearly $10,000 in gas over my lousy gas guzzler. Our electricity is $0.06/KWh, so cheap it's rounding noise. I'd do it all over again if (when) needed. I'd rather starve the oil industry to pay the auto industry for more electrics. That's just my perspective, but hey, I waited OVER TWENTY years to purchase my first electric vehicle, so maybe my perspective is a bit out of touch with mainstream America.
 
Not to pile on here but I live in the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh as well and I am gonna go out on a limb and say that you are traveling from the northern suburbs to Oakland (since you mentioned a university and the commute description seems to add up), have you looked into taking US-19 or even PA-8 down into town and then cutting through the East End? It's stop lights instead of freeway, but it's more of what the Leaf was built to drive in.

That dealer definitely fed you a line for sure on the range. I am not condoning what they do, but no one ever said a car salesman is a noble profession. We test drove a new Leaf at the very dealership that you mentioned before we eventually bought my wife's used Leaf, and they knew absolutely nothing about it and I got a grimy feeling from the dealership in general. Beating suburbanites over the head for $50K+ Armadas is what they are good at, they don't care to guarantee the range on a tech that they know nothing about.

I would suggest storing it in a garage if you can at home, and bumping the PSI to 40-42 as others have mentioned. Barring that, I would look into selling it and getting a used 2013-2015 from Carvana, or just waiting for a Bolt if you really need more range. If you don't mind switching back to gas you could likely trade it straight up for a 2014 Mitsubishi Mirage (which is the most fuel efficient conventional gas vehicle out there right now), you could drive that with a lead foot and still get 35 MPG.

My question to you would be - Obviously you have made this work for the last 1.5 years, what have you done to make this work for you all this time?
 
6 pages of replies.. which I didn't have the stomach to read.

I would ask you to go to Youtube.. and took at some videos posted by people who live in very cold climates.
There are a LOT of leafs in Norway.

Do this just so you can understand what is Normal for a battery powered car in very cold conditions.
What you describe sounds perfectly normal.. it just wont work for you... that's all.

--- The facts that the salesmen are ignorant and lie ( both) doesn't make the Leaf a Bad Car.. or Nissan a Bad Corporation -

It means you got your tit in the wringer.... you have a Car that Is NOT SUITED TO YOUR NEEDS
Just get one that is !


So, I sincerely suggest you sell the leaf and buy a car that DOES suit your needs.
NOT an electric one !

A prius will let you blast down the road as fast as you can stand.
They are cheap enough used that you can get one with the $7000 your Leaf is worth.
You can let it run all night in the driveway.. it you want it really HOT inside.
it wont care.

----

I wont rub your nose in anything.

----
Any energy you invest in researching your next car.. before buying it.. will be repaid.

Consumers Reports has very good compendiums of information about Used Cars.. problem areas and strong points
by Make, Model, and Year... Start there.. and pick the best suited to your needs and budget.
 
Overall, when I have heard people who are dissatisfied with the Leaf, they seem to be of two groups.. One group are the people who buy a used Leaf, and find that their battery starts to deteriorate, and does not have the range of a newer car... Here, the car has had its best years of battery life used by the original owner. Like buying any used car, a used car will not be like a new car, and will need more repairs.

Second group are new and used buyers that expect that a Leaf (even in good condition) to drive like, maintain high speeds, use the heat and a/c just like their old gas guzzler car. Forget it. you cannot expect to get a free lunch here. Saving petroleum and energy requires changing HABITS to a different lifestyle.

If you enjoy the idea of driving an EV, and are willing to accept a new lifestyle, then the Leaf is for you.... I am ecstatic with my EV experience. I love pugging in my car 2x /day because I love what I am doing --- driving a magical electric vehicle... (some people see that as a hassle). I love being able to drive 60-80 miles per day silently and cheaply. Not using any petroleum... That needs to be your priority to own a Leaf. Otherwise.....GO BUY A GAS CAR.
 
alembic42 said:
Anyway, still super pissed at nissan - and I can't believe there are people here who aren't??? I mean if you bought my Leaf at today's prices, then sure seven grand for a car like this has to seem like a good deal. I spent $16k and I guarantee you I would have approached it differently if I'd known the truth about the lies I was being told. Didn't a bunch of you guys buy yours new for over $30k?

I'm one that isn't even slightly upset with Nissan. And I've bought two Leafs.

The difference is probably that I knew what I was buying. So the surprises have been mostly positive.

I knew it wasn't a really 100 mile range car before the first one was sold. I knew that Li ion batteries lose capacity, more quickly so in hot places, and that a buyer should plan for that. I knew that range would be less in cold, wet, snowy, windy, hilly and with heat or AC running, and again, the buyer should plan for that.

I hoped that the Leaf would be very reliable. Other than a blown out tire, that's been the case so far. According to Consumer Reports, the Leaf is Nissan's most reliable car. An electric car has very few moving parts, and has the potential to be more reliable than any gasoline car.

I hoped that the Leaf would be similar in total cost of ownership to a gas car. Looks like this goal is still realistic for me. Low gas prices now make the gas car a bit cheaper, but I'm only looking for similar, not clearly lower. And I'm in BEV heaven, coastal Pacific Northwest, with cool temperatures, fairly low electric prices...Some places with hot temperatures and high electric prices will be a lot worse for an BEV.

The Leaf has been a joy to drive. Comfortable, quiet, smooth, responsive...

Not stopping at gas stations was a joy I wasn't expecting. Other than the once a year stop for gas for the power washer.

If someone relied on the hundred mile range hype, I can see why they are upset...

People in hot places have a reason to be unhappy with battery life for the 2011 and 2012. Nissan's statements were misleading. Doesn't impact me, I'm going to get good battery life, but I feel for those impacted.

Nissan took a big chance on building the Leaf and rolling out to a national market. I appreciate that.
 
alembic42 said:
Whelp,
Didn't a bunch of you guys buy yours new for over $30k?

I bought mine in Jan 2012 for full MSRP : about $38000 before tax credits etc., so with tax and optimistic rounding, $30k.

I knew exactly what I was getting. It certainly beat spending about $10k to convert a car to get less capability.

Is it annoying Nissan cut 6k from the MSRP the next year? yep.

Am I going to get a new battery before my 5 years are up? no - I'm still at 12 bars


I always figured this car was like a 386 computer. it was expensive as hell and kind of impressive when purchased new, but a few years in you can't give it away - but it was certainly useful when you had it.


edited to add: I have an ELM device but don't use it. I pre-plan any day with more than 40 miles of driving. But that 40 miles is exactly the same distance I set as my worst-case unplanned day back in 2010 when I reserved the car.
 
alembic42 said:
....But I really appreciate the people who actually had helpful things to offer. Not sure what motivates you to post replies to strangers on boards like this. I'm totally new to posting stuff on internet boards. Don't know how that whole system works or why. But hey thanks for the LeafSpy suggestion, as well as the helpful discussion; it does help.
Welcome back! Feel free to provide your experiences, even if they aren't rosy and positive about Nissan or EVs in general. This board has been running for over six years with some of the smartest people on the planet (I'm definitely not one of them). Spend some time perusing some of the older threads, the information is truly amazing. Early on there was a huge amount of angst over the "100 mi" marketing. There's a thread dedicated to the first 100 drivers to ACTUALLY achieve 100 mi in one drive (I'm #23).
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7022&p=154572&hilit=100+mile#p154572
So, if you've received some short, less than useful, or even downright derogatory replies, just remember that many of these people have seen it all before from others as they have begun their electric journey.
 
alembic42 said:
And as for the people who told me to do **** that adds an extra hour to my daily commute, like maybe taking the slow roads to work... just look man i'm living in the real world here but thanks for contributing from so far away.

You should at least give it a try if possible. As others have said, the drive on secondary roads can be much less stressful, and increases the Leaf range significantly. It may not add as much time to your commute as you imagine.

alembic42 said:
Didn't a bunch of you guys buy yours new for over $30k?

If I recall, my 2012 SL came to about $42,000 with taxes, tags, and transfer fees, before the $7500 tax credit. Am I pissed that the car is now only worth $7,000? YES, of course! I have never had a car devaluate so badly, but what can I do about it. I don't see how you paid so much for your 2012, when I looked at trading mine 2 years ago for a Tesla model S it was only worth $10,000, so I think you WAY overpaid.
The other unfortunate thing is that you live so far north that your battery will never degrade enough to qualify for a new battery (~34% loss before 5 years/60,000 miles), so your situation is only going to get worse. As others have suggested, it may be best to just bail out now and get a car that works for your commute in the winter.
 
My 2011 SL has lost 3 capacity bars. I was hoping it would lose the 4th bar by November 11th, its 5 year in-service anniversary, so I could get a replacement battery. Unfortunately, that did not happen. I can usually go about 40 miles before the low battery warning comes on ...

So here's my story. I bought my Leaf in 2013 with 4100 miles. Nearly 4 years later I now have just under 15,000 miles, so I obviously don't drive it much. I paid $17,900 for the car back in 2013, which wasn't too bad at the time for an SL with really low miles. It has been totally trouble-free, literally only requiring new wiper blades. But I sure wish I knew how limited of a car this would become in relatively few miles. Fortunately, I still have my other 2 ICE cars which I still drive and enjoy ('88 Mazda RX7 convertible and '94 Lexus SC400). But my plan is to move on and eventually get rid of all 3 cars and get one car to do it all. I definitely would not buy an all-electric car again --- even one with a 200 mile range. If I don't buy a Volt (which I like, but find cramped inside compared to the Leaf), I'm sure I will buy an ICE car. Since I work from home these days, I drive very little and the cost of fuel has little impact on me (although I do really like the low environmental impact of the Leaf). But I want to take road trips on occasion, which I can't do in the Leaf and my other cars are getting up there in mileage (The Lexus, which I recently put 500 miles on during a trip, has nearly 260K miles). I told my brother-in-law that I would just give him the Leaf, as it's worth almost nothing now, but he's not sure if he wants to invest the $5500.00 in a new battery and still have a limited range vehicle. Sure wish I knew then what I know now about these cars. I would have a lot more money in my pocket, having not bought one in the first place! Apparently many people feel the same way as I do.
 
A lot of posts in this thread beat up on alembic42 and he certainly failed to do due diligence before purchasing his Leaf but he has my sympathy. His mistake was one that any of us could have made on a bad day. Even allowing for salesman's exaggerations the fact that range deteriorates in cold weather as badly as it does is something that our previous experience with gasoline cars completely fails to prepare us to even suspect. Gasoline cars lose range in cold weather too but unless you're actually measuring carefully, it's not too noticeable and with 300+ mile ranges and gas stations everywhere it's no big deal anyway. But with EVs like the Leaf it's a _very big deal__.

Like alembic42, I tpp failed to do enough due diligence. I bought my Leaf new at the end of February, 2015 but almost immediately went on a long vacation and didn't return until the beginning of April so that I returned to early Spring temperatures. So all was just ducky and innocent I had no clue what was going to happen on the first really cold day the following December when I left work on a frigid (22 F) day to pick up a friend at an airport a "mere" 25 miles away. Fortunately I made it but just barely. It was a wakeup call. So I then began paying careful attention to my Leaf's cold weather performance and found that its nominal 84 mile range was maybe 45 miles during the worst of Winter.

Same thing as happened to alembic82 -- completely blindsided by the discovery that not only was the range less in Winter, it was a FULL BINARY ORDER OF MAGNITUDE less. But I was not betrayed the way he was because lucky me my commute is only 20 miles round trip and none of it at freeway speeds. So even in Winter, my Leaf serves me well and the impact of Winter for me is only that I have to plug in more often. (Other than the fact that Winter mostly sucks). And even with Winter-halved range my Leaf is still more economical than any gas alternative other than a mo-ped or tiny motorcycle. So even after my loss of innocence, I don't feel betrayed by my Leaf. I'm still pretty happy with it (albeit a bit less so than before I knew).

The primary purpose of a car is to get you and your groceries from point A to point B, in reasonable safety and comfort.

So if your EV goes turtle at point A and a half it has failed to discharge its fundamental purpose. The buyer needs to have an accurate idea of expected range in realistic, not optimal circumstances (duh) so that he/she doesn't go turtle and A and an half. So where does info come from? One possibility is from the dealer or salesman but this thread has already laughed that idea out of court. Another is forums such as this but how does the dear buyer even know to search out and consult these forums when nothing in his/her experience with the last 1,2,3,4 or 5 car purchases tipped him/her off that doing this sort of thing was not merely wise but essential?

My point is that many a buyer besides alebmic42 and I are going to walk into this same nasty trap. Is this OK and if not, what's to be done about it?

One school of thought is laissez-faire and caveat emptor and buyer beware. Pro: it's all about free markets and minimal regulation (yay!!!) but Con: people are going to continue to get screwed and electric cars are going to get a bad reputation. This will harm the environment and harm the economy because global warming unchecked will be very very expensive economically.

Another idea is that manufacturers should show enlightened self=interest and tell the exact truth about expected range. Tesla seems to do this very thing by providing a simple calculator of expected range as a function of speed, temperature, and tire size (https://www.tesla.com/models at the bottom of the page). I say "seems to" beause I have no idea of the calculated values are correct (but see http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-limit-range-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm). Nissan, on the other hand, (I just got back from the NissanUSA web site) is still suggesting an expected range of 80-85 miles or more with a testimonial hint that cooler weather will !increase! range. The Chevy Bolt site is no better. I have no idea how forthcoming all the rest are and don't have the stomach to look. Enlightment here is wanting.

This leaves nothing left but the govermment (and if you don't like this idea, see [a] and above). The EPA MPGE disclosure is the obvious hook to hang this on. The range/MPGE value could easily be stated for several temperatures, e.g., 10 degrees F, 40, 70, and 100. Or at the very least a "range is reduced by cold temperatures -- see http://www.epa.gov/EV/temperature" for the essential facts.

My 2 cents worth. If anyone has better ideas I'd love to hear them.
 
I have heard of some AA trucks being equipped with L-2 generators, but I doubt you'd find any in your area - or me in mine. Basically, you have to maximize range from the beginning of each trip, not just when you see that gap opening up, between where you can go and where you have to get. You also have to analyze each new trip, and if you can't make it with 5 miles to spare, don't take it...
 
alembic42 said:
Here in western PA, i don't think we have all brands of electric vehicles to choose from. But there are a few: Ford, Tesla, what else?
You can see some EVs mixed in with PHEVs at http://insideevs.com/compare-plug-ins/ (via Compare EVs link at top of page).

You can see US BEVs under Battery Electric sales of http://www.hybridcars.com/november-2016-dashboard/. Yes, some are CA compliance cars only or only available in CARB states or just small sets of states.

alembic42 said:
Do the other brands of electric vehicles have the same range problem? Do they go as far as they claim to go under realistic conditions, unlike the Leaf? Or do they have the same problem?
The US EPA test is about the only standardized controlled test that I know of that's useful that's been done most/all the BEVs sold in the US. There are the crazy inflated Japanese and European (NEDC) cycles.

The test results are only as good as what they test and on a new battery. I already pointed to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=474086#p474086. I also re-stumbled across http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2433. Unfortunately, many of the images are broken. :( If I'm reading it (page 2 of FOI-BNSXV0000LLA.pdf) correctly, on the tests Nissan conducted that are supposed to be compliant w/the required procedures, they achieved 111.7 miles on the UDDS test (aka LA4 city test https://www.epa.gov/vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-testing/dynamometer-drive-schedules) and 94.9 miles on the "highway" test in D vs. 113.7 and 97.1 in Eco. (Remember, the average speed on the highway tests is only 48.3 or 48.4 mph per Test Details tab of https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml and note the lab temps of 68 to 86 F in the 2 highway cycles.)

They're all going to suffer from the same issue although ones w/real battery thermal management if the battery is kept warm enough via "shore power" in cold temps, should be better off.

alembic42 said:
Someone on this thread mentioned that his or her RAV4 EV had no problem achieving the miles stated - this is a compliance car not available in PA. But its batteries are made by Tesla, right? Does anyone know how this shakes out? Like, you know, for the next car I buy which is not going to be any kind of a Nissan?
Rav4 EV is EPA rated at 103 miles (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33308). I believe http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=541#p541 "Toyota's "official" estimated range of 92 miles at 80% charge, and 113 miles at 100% charge," is correct. I'm having trouble finding other threads about the Rav4 EV getting bitten by the stupid 80%/100% averaging rule.

You can read about Tony's 130 mile Rav4 EV drive at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=240769#p240769 and the posts that follow.

Unfortunately, the Rav4 EV is an unreliable, discontinued Tesla-powered CA compliance car. It does have a lot more range than a 24 kwh Leaf, because it has a ~41 kwh battery!
 
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