2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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Try to contact another Leaf owner in your area with Leafspy so as to determine the battery stats for record.
It would be beneficial to know if this bar drop is caused by equal degradation evenly over all the cells or by defects in one cell pair or module.
Please update us with cell voltage differentials and amp hour reading and I guess the state of health and HX (internal resistance) as well.
Thanks
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here. First off, charging the battery to 100% actually only charges it to about 92% of full capacity. Nissan only allows the voltage in the cell to rise to 4.11v. A fully charged cell would register between 4.17and 4.20. I have over 25000 miles on my car and it gets a full charge every evening (over 400 L2 charges so far plus several dozen L3 charges). I live in San Diego east county. Summer temps here are similar to east L.A. or Las Vegas. I still have all 12 bars (although probably not for much longer) SOH is 85%.

Could you tell us your amp hour reading and SOH? If you don't have Leafspy PM me and I'll plug mine in to your car. Since we are both in San Diego it should be easy to arrange a meet. There are reports that the first bar doesn't drop until you hit an SOH of 80% That would be important for us to know since the 24KWH leafs drop the first bar at 85%. If Nissan is playing games here with the loss of bars ( and therefore with the warranty) we need to document it.

your statement is a litany of contradictions. You say charging to 100% is not the problem but your car only charges to 92% which means significant degradation. It should be charging to 97%. Also thinking (again as usual) you have one of the first 30 kwh packs and the later ones will prove to be much more durable...

Either way, getting a database going with LEAF Spy readings on when these bars are disappearing is vital. If a warranty is not going to happen until the pain level hits 10, we all want to know. Previously it was assumed the percentages would be the same meaning that a 30 kwh pack would see replacement at a level only slightly below the range of a new 24 kwh pack.

If replacement is not going to happen until the pack reaches a range near the replacement level of the 24 kwh pack, this would be a HUGE game changer. With the 100,000 mile warranty, one could be suffering for years waiting for that last bar to disappear!

You're missing the point, no Leaf charges the battery to it's full capacity. The BMS limits the cell charge to 4.11v. Full charge on a Li-ion is 4.17-4.20v. Total charge is related to voltage. At 4.11v a Li-ion cell has 92% of its maximum capacity available. The BMS also limits the discharge to 3.3v. At that point the cell has about 3-5% of its max charge left. If you wanted you could discharge the cell down to as low as 2.8v before damaging it. Cycling the cell from 4.2v to 2.8 v is tough on the cell so Nissan limits the the cycle to 4.11v to 3.3v. That lowers capacity by about 10% but significantly improves the number of cycles the battery can endure. There is a built in buffer for charging and discharging the battery. Deep discharge is worse than high charging but Nissan apparently doesn't think many people will routinely drive the car to turtle. I suspect most people try and stay above 20% charge most of the time.

Nissan's rated capacity is based on that cell voltage of 4.11v. You are at 100% charge whenever the cells are at 4.11v. What I'm suggesting is that charging to 100% doesn't stress the battery very much because there's still some buffer space left.

People who drive Leafs as taxis or Ubers charge the **** out of them all the time. They don't seem to have any higher failure rate than the average driver. If charging to 100% was all that bad, we would see a lot of complaints from those drivers about battery failures.

Although I do have an early pack, we are seeing complaints about low capacity packs from people with late build 16s. Some of those came right off the lot with low batteries. I do want to document as much as possible as evidence for future lawsuits. Nissan seems unlikely to acknowledge a problem until it's forced to. If Nissan monkeyed around with the bars again, they have opened themselves up for a massive lawsuit.
 
johnlocke said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here. First off, charging the battery to 100% actually only charges it to about 92% of full capacity. Nissan only allows the voltage in the cell to rise to 4.11v. A fully charged cell would register between 4.17and 4.20. I have over 25000 miles on my car and it gets a full charge every evening (over 400 L2 charges so far plus several dozen L3 charges). I live in San Diego east county. Summer temps here are similar to east L.A. or Las Vegas. I still have all 12 bars (although probably not for much longer) SOH is 85%.

Could you tell us your amp hour reading and SOH? If you don't have Leafspy PM me and I'll plug mine in to your car. Since we are both in San Diego it should be easy to arrange a meet. There are reports that the first bar doesn't drop until you hit an SOH of 80% That would be important for us to know since the 24KWH leafs drop the first bar at 85%. If Nissan is playing games here with the loss of bars ( and therefore with the warranty) we need to document it.

your statement is a litany of contradictions. You say charging to 100% is not the problem but your car only charges to 92% which means significant degradation. It should be charging to 97%. Also thinking (again as usual) you have one of the first 30 kwh packs and the later ones will prove to be much more durable...

Either way, getting a database going with LEAF Spy readings on when these bars are disappearing is vital. If a warranty is not going to happen until the pain level hits 10, we all want to know. Previously it was assumed the percentages would be the same meaning that a 30 kwh pack would see replacement at a level only slightly below the range of a new 24 kwh pack.

If replacement is not going to happen until the pack reaches a range near the replacement level of the 24 kwh pack, this would be a HUGE game changer. With the 100,000 mile warranty, one could be suffering for years waiting for that last bar to disappear!

You're missing the point, no Leaf charges the battery to it's full capacity. The BMS limits the cell charge to 4.11v. Full charge on a Li-ion is 4.17-4.20v. Total charge is related to voltage. At 4.11v a Li-ion cell has 92% of its maximum capacity available. The BMS also limits the discharge to 3.3v. At that point the cell has about 3-5% of its max charge left. If you wanted you could discharge the cell down to as low as 2.8v before damaging it. Cycling the cell from 4.2v to 2.8 v is tough on the cell so Nissan limits the the cycle to 4.11v to 3.3v. That lowers capacity by about 10% but significantly improves the number of cycles the battery can endure. There is a built in buffer for charging and discharging the battery. Deep discharge is worse than high charging but Nissan apparently doesn't think many people will routinely drive the car to turtle. I suspect most people try and stay above 20% charge most of the time.

Nissan's rated capacity is based on that cell voltage of 4.11v. You are at 100% charge whenever the cells are at 4.11v. What I'm suggesting is that charging to 100% doesn't stress the battery very much because there's still some buffer space left.

People who drive Leafs as taxis or Ubers charge the **** out of them all the time. They don't seem to have any higher failure rate than the average driver. If charging to 100% was all that bad, we would see a lot of complaints from those drivers about battery failures.

Although I do have an early pack, we are seeing complaints about low capacity packs from people with late build 16s. Some of those came right off the lot with low batteries. I do want to document as much as possible as evidence for future lawsuits. Nissan seems unlikely to acknowledge a problem until it's forced to. If Nissan monkeyed around with the bars again, they have opened themselves up for a massive lawsuit.


I edited the formatting of my post for clarity. As mentioned above, I don't think his charging habits have played as much of a part as what may have happened before he got the car. lets focus on that.
 
Looks like the 2016 SV we're getting has lost its first bar, with less than 9k miles and only about 10 months in service. At that rate this car could be getting its battery replaced twice under warranty.

This car has been charged to 100% plenty of times, although not every night.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I edited the formatting of my post for clarity. As mentioned above, I don't think his charging habits have played as much of a part as what may have happened before he got the car. lets focus on that.

My wife and I were talking about this very thing today. When we got her car, it had a few hundred miles on it. The recent destinations in the nav system seemed to indicate it frequented some places in town. Maybe sales people, maybe it was loaned, who knows. But it clearly didn't sit the entire time between the manufacture date and when we brought it home.

On the other hand, we know my car sat at a dealership in Texas for quite some time (7-8 months at least) before I got it. It had 50 miles on it when I got it.

As of yesterday,
Hers: 76 Ah, 96% SOH (now 6k miles)
Mine: 70 Ah, 88% SOH (now 3.5k miles)

We both do a lot of L1 (until we get our L2 installed next month). In our case, it indeed has a lot more to do with the first few months after assembly.
 
OP, and another others who have lost capacity bars, can you please add your vehicle to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss?
 
OP, and another others who have lost capacity bars, can you please add your vehicle to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss?
 
rt84vhf said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I edited the formatting of my post for clarity. As mentioned above, I don't think his charging habits have played as much of a part as what may have happened before he got the car. lets focus on that.

My wife and I were talking about this very thing today. When we got her car, it had a few hundred miles on it. The recent destinations in the nav system seemed to indicate it frequented some places in town. Maybe sales people, maybe it was loaned, who knows. But it clearly didn't sit the entire time between the manufacture date and when we brought it home.

On the other hand, we know my car sat at a dealership in Texas for quite some time (7-8 months at least) before I got it. It had 50 miles on it when I got it.

As of yesterday,
Hers: 76 Ah, 96% SOH (now 6k miles)
Mine: 70 Ah, 88% SOH (now 3.5k miles)

We both do a lot of L1 (until we get our L2 installed next month). In our case, it indeed has a lot more to do with the first few months after assembly.


well the number of miles definitely indicates the car was charged up, etc. Mine on the other hand, Had 2 QCs (one I am thinking was a port test, the other at the dealership for delivery) 2 L1/L2's again likely port tests. I had 4 miles on the odometer
 
So I read this post and started thinking about my car, and fussed a bit, fiddled. There's a couple things I just don't understand I guess, namely the relationship between SOH in LeafSpy, GIDS and bars. I have 12/12 bars with 1800 miles as you'd expect, but even after a full charge last night and topping it off (just to be sure) this morning, my SOH @ 92% is not as high as I thought it would be. Perhaps you can help me interpret the results.

Car was built in 2/2016, ordered by Campbell-Nelson Nissan in Edmonds, WA and sold @ Tacoma Nissan. Delivered 12/29/2016 with something like 31 miles on it. It was raining. :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xkupwnybxzc5q/File%20Apr%2029%2C%209%2020%2051%20AM.png?dl=0
 
Scaramanga said:
So I read this post and started thinking about my car, and fussed a bit, fiddled. There's a couple things I just don't understand I guess, namely the relationship between SOH in LeafSpy, GIDS and bars. I have 12/12 bars with 1800 miles as you'd expect, but even after a full charge last night and topping it off (just to be sure) this morning, my SOH @ 92% is not as high as I thought it would be. Perhaps you can help me interpret the results.

Car was built in 2/2016, ordered by Campbell-Nelson Nissan in Edmonds, WA and sold @ Tacoma Nissan. Delivered 12/29/2016 with something like 31 miles on it. It was raining. :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xkupwnybxzc5q/File%20Apr%2029%2C%209%2020%2051%20AM.png?dl=0

SOH is the State of Health of the battery, and is not directly tied to the State of Charge. If the car was made in February and sold in December, it likely sat on a dealers lot at 100% charge for 10 months. Even in a cooler climate, that is still hard on the battery.
 
baustin said:
Scaramanga said:
So I read this post and started thinking about my car, and fussed a bit, fiddled. There's a couple things I just don't understand I guess, namely the relationship between SOH in LeafSpy, GIDS and bars. I have 12/12 bars with 1800 miles as you'd expect, but even after a full charge last night and topping it off (just to be sure) this morning, my SOH @ 92% is not as high as I thought it would be. Perhaps you can help me interpret the results.

Car was built in 2/2016, ordered by Campbell-Nelson Nissan in Edmonds, WA and sold @ Tacoma Nissan. Delivered 12/29/2016 with something like 31 miles on it. It was raining. :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xkupwnybxzc5q/File%20Apr%2029%2C%209%2020%2051%20AM.png?dl=0

SOH is the State of Health of the battery, and is not directly tied to the State of Charge. If the car was made in February and sold in December, it likely sat on a dealers lot at 100% charge for 10 months. Even in a cooler climate, that is still hard on the battery.

That's an interesting point, I hadn't thought of that, I'll have to do some research and get a spreadsheet going to see when I'll lose my first battery bar, it sounds like the pack might not be a long lived as I'd like it to be, BUT I will say I drive very short miles, usually 15 miles a day and then for errands on the weekends. About once a month I drive into the office (instead of taking the train) about 70 miles round trip. So it may not be that difficult to live with.

If anyone has other suggestions they are certainly appreciated.
 
Do you charge to 100% often? Always? If you just charged it full once, then it may improve with a few full charges. just make sure you drive it a bit, soon after it's fully charged.
 
baustin said:
Scaramanga said:
So I read this post and started thinking about my car, and fussed a bit, fiddled. There's a couple things I just don't understand I guess, namely the relationship between SOH in LeafSpy, GIDS and bars. I have 12/12 bars with 1800 miles as you'd expect, but even after a full charge last night and topping it off (just to be sure) this morning, my SOH @ 92% is not as high as I thought it would be. Perhaps you can help me interpret the results.

Car was built in 2/2016, ordered by Campbell-Nelson Nissan in Edmonds, WA and sold @ Tacoma Nissan. Delivered 12/29/2016 with something like 31 miles on it. It was raining. :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xkupwnybxzc5q/File%20Apr%2029%2C%209%2020%2051%20AM.png?dl=0

SOH is the State of Health of the battery, and is not directly tied to the State of Charge. If the car was made in February and sold in December, it likely sat on a dealers lot at 100% charge for 10 months. Even in a cooler climate, that is still hard on the battery.

Agree with this assessment 100%. This is why its critical to examine the car fax on these cars since you can pretty much tell how long they sat where.

I got a 2016 S30 (which they didn't start building until October 2016) in Nov 2016 so it insured that there was nearly no time on the lot. I am at 10,000 miles and still 100% SOH, 82.34 ahr, 363 GIDs (@ 77.5 wh/GID) Hx between 98 and 104. over 80 QCs. I have not lost anything yet. But again, built in Oct so has yet to see its first Summer and as you might guess with 10,000 miles in 5 months, it doesn't sit very much at any SOC!
 
Mine is also one that sat on a lot in Texas for almost a year. It is now at 70.75 AHr 89% SOH and 5175 mi. It has been fairly consistent for the last 2 months. When I bought it last Dec it was at 86% SOH, so it has improved a bit. It will be interesting to see how it does this summer.
 
jbuntz said:
Mine is also one that sat on a lot in Texas for almost a year. It is now at 70.75 AHr 89% SOH and 5175 mi. It has been fairly consistent for the last 2 months. When I bought it last Dec it was at 86% SOH, so it has improved a bit. It will be interesting to see how it does this summer.

I'm in almost the exact same boat (numbers in previous posts). That said, it's not getting worse and it's still way more than enough to get to work and back a few time between charges so I'm still happy with it. I do wonder if it'll make the 100k 9 bar warranty.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Do you charge to 100% often? Always? If you just charged it full once, then it may improve with a few full charges. just make sure you drive it a bit, soon after it's fully charged.

Good call, but no I only charge it two days a week, I think I just drive it so few miles that I may not be 'exercising' the pack well enough. I could just let it get below 25% and then charge it up fully on a evening before I have to drive a longer trip, or all the way into the office.

I dumped my LeafSpy data into a spreadsheet and I'm tracking it closely now vs. the standard battery bar breakpoints vs. warranty expectations here:

http://insideevs.com/battery-capacity-loss-chart-2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf/
 
Scaramanga said:
LeftieBiker said:
Do you charge to 100% often? Always? If you just charged it full once, then it may improve with a few full charges. just make sure you drive it a bit, soon after it's fully charged.

Good call, but no I only charge it two days a week, I think I just drive it so few miles that I may not be 'exercising' the pack well enough. I could just let it get below 25% and then charge it up fully on a evening before I have to drive a longer trip, or all the way into the office.

I dumped my LeafSpy data into a spreadsheet and I'm tracking it closely now vs. the standard battery bar breakpoints vs. warranty expectations here:

http://insideevs.com/battery-capacity-loss-chart-2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf/


You are probably in better shape than you think. I still believe your car sitting on the lot all Summer hurt it but charging only twice a week will depress your numbers probably 10%. I actually tried this as well on my new car. I basically went on a 13 day stretch where I never charged it more than 2 hours and while only charging it 5 times.

My low water mark was 81.31 ahr, 97.01 Hx, SOH 97 on Nov 30th, Odometer 1011.3 miles. Today I am at 82.34 ahr, 102. 37 Hx (least important) and 100 SOH, Odometer 10,057.
 
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