Leaf or Prius?

Sorry for my long write-ups.

I think the pricing is too close to say one is better than the other. Buying new, a Prius might be cheaper. Buying used, a Leaf might be cheaper. But in the end they're too close to be able to say that it really will be that way. A new Leaf could be cheaper than a new Prius and a used Prius could end up being cheaper than a used Leaf. There numbers are just too close.

The main thing is use and your personal preferences. Have you test driven either? Do you want a car that can go on long trips nonstop or do you like stopping and charging along the way?

LeftieBiker said:

The warranty you reference is against manufacturing defects, not "normal" degradation.

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Sure, but how many batteries have gone bad? The technology is fairy tried/tested/true by this point, yeah?

TreeStar said:

LeftieBiker said:

The warranty you reference is against manufacturing defects, not "normal" degradation.

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Sure, but how many batteries have gone bad? The technology is fairy tried/tested/true by this point, yeah?

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You'd think so, but 2016 30kwh packs are not holding up well.

TreeStar said:

LeftieBiker said:

The warranty you reference is against manufacturing defects, not "normal" degradation.

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Sure, but how many batteries have gone bad? The technology is fairy tried/tested/true by this point, yeah?

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I can't think of any, other than a few with bad cells, which had the individual bad cells replaced.

The problem is the degradation, esp. from heat. Seems like the 4/2013+ build date '13 and '14 Leafs along w/'15 model year "lizard" battery are holding up better than the crap '11 and '12 ones (and those from before 4/2013).

But as Leftie mentions, the signs are not looking good for the '16 30 kWh batteries in terms of degradation. Unclear if those folks have defective batteries or it's a general issue for those 30 kWh packs. Unclear if Nissan has revised the 30 kWh packs in any way.

There have been plenty of batteries from before model year 2016 that have been replaced for degradation. Some were replaced at no cost under the capacity warranty, some had Nissan cover some/most of the cost and a small set of people paid full price.

It should be noted that the OP lives in Portland, OR. No place in the country experiences better LEAF battery longevity than Portland. The mild climate is easy on the battery and also means you use climate control less than most other places. My '13 showed 12 bars thru 3 years of use and my '16 is so far doing just fine.

BTW, we are a 2 car family. We own a LEAF and a Prius. We use the LEAF for the majority of our driving as it works so well around town and is even more economical to operate than the Prius. A trip to Ashland coming up next week. We will take the Prius.

If I was in the OPs shoes, I would buy a 2013 S + QC, for less than $9k, that spent its entire life in the PNW. Here are some good examples:

http://www.paramountmotorsnw.com/inventory.asp?dealerSel=&showOnly=Nissan&sortBy=adprice

His payments on a 5 year loan would be <$150 per month, assuming a small down payment.

Most of the depreciation has already been realized on a 4 year old Leaf, so residual value after 5 years might be $2500. If he buys a 2013 S + QC with 25K miles on it, he'll add about 35k miles over 5 years. For perspective, my PNW 2013 SV has over 50k miles on it and still has an SOH of 91%. He'll probably still have 11 bars after 5 years.

Basically, the car costs him a little over $100 per month BEFORE adjusting for any savings on gas. Given his limited miles and low $/kWh electricity rates, his electricity costs will be less than $15 a month.

For his situation, buying a used Leaf is a no brainer AFAIK. Very similar to my own.

Once the loan is paid off, his only significant cost is to insure it, assuming no unexpected repair bills of course, and a car that old wouldn't be worth putting collision coverage on it - so even insurance will be cheap.

alozzy said:

If I was in the OPs shoes, I would buy a 2013 S + QC, for less than $9k, that spent its entire life in the PNW. Here are some good examples:

http://www.paramountmotorsnw.com/inventory.asp?dealerSel=&showOnly=Nissan&sortBy=adprice

His payments on a 5 year loan would be <$150 per month, assuming a small down payment.

Most of the depreciation has already been realized on a 4 year old Leaf, so residual value after 5 years might be $2500. If he buys a 2013 S + QC with 25K miles on it, he'll add about 35k miles over 5 years. For perspective, my PNW 2013 SV has over 50k miles on it and still has an SOH of 91%. He'll probably still have 11 bars after 5 years.

Basically, the car costs him a little over $100 per month BEFORE adjusting for any savings on gas. Given his limited miles and low $/kWh electricity rates, his electricity costs will be less than $15 a month.

For his situation, buying a used Leaf is a no brainer AFAIK. Very similar to my own.

Once the loan is paid off, his only significant cost is to insure it, assuming no unexpected repair bills of course, and a car that old wouldn't be worth putting collision coverage on it - so even insurance will be cheap.

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I've thought about that.... But the range. I would want something as a backup to a Leaf. I'm already questioning the ability to be able to drive to Eugene with out a "fill up".

Most of my driving is local though.

TreeStar said:

alozzy said:

If I was in the OPs shoes, I would buy a 2013 S + QC, for less than $9k, that spent its entire life in the PNW. Here are some good examples:

http://www.paramountmotorsnw.com/inventory.asp?dealerSel=&showOnly=Nissan&sortBy=adprice

His payments on a 5 year loan would be <$150 per month, assuming a small down payment.

Most of the depreciation has already been realized on a 4 year old Leaf, so residual value after 5 years might be $2500. If he buys a 2013 S + QC with 25K miles on it, he'll add about 35k miles over 5 years. For perspective, my PNW 2013 SV has over 50k miles on it and still has an SOH of 91%. He'll probably still have 11 bars after 5 years.

Basically, the car costs him a little over $100 per month BEFORE adjusting for any savings on gas. Given his limited miles and low $/kWh electricity rates, his electricity costs will be less than $15 a month.

For his situation, buying a used Leaf is a no brainer AFAIK. Very similar to my own.

Once the loan is paid off, his only significant cost is to insure it, assuming no unexpected repair bills of course, and a car that old wouldn't be worth putting collision coverage on it - so even insurance will be cheap.

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I've thought about that.... But the range. I would want something as a backup to a Leaf. I'm already questioning the ability to be able to drive to Eugene with out a "fill up".

Most of my driving is local though.

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I bought my Leaf because I knew it would cover most of my driving needs. For those occasional trips that make the Leaf impractical for your situation do you have any alternatives? Could you rent, take a bus, borrow a car, etc? Or could you just take your time and charge along the way?

I've done a 380 mile round trip in a single two day weekend using only L1 (120V/21hour) and L2 (240V/4hour) charging. Have you looked at PlugShare.com to see where charging stations are? If you have CHAdeMO stations and get a Leaf with CHAdeMO you could be set!

This is like "pickup syndrome." Some people go buy a pickup truck because they know that some day they might need to haul something big. But in the end it would have been much more practical to have bought a car and then have rented a moving van those few times they needed to haul something large. But if you need to haul something large every day or even once every week, well then maybe you need a pickup. Likewise if you need to drive hundreds of miles every day or even just once every week, then maybe you need a car with an internal combustion engine.

To the OP, Oregon is one of the best states in the USA for charging infrastructure, it really doesn't get much better.

If you purchased an S + QC, you could charge to 100%, drive for 50 to 60 miles, then QC for 30 minutes - repeat as needed. For Eugenie to Portland, at least two times, three more likely. We do this whenever we visit Whistler in our Leaf, but I'm fine with that.

It sounds like you aren't prepared to do that, so you honestly don't have the necessary mindset to be a content Leaf owner. Sounds harsh, but you'll just end up resenting the car, despite how amazing a deal a used Leaf would be for you.

FWIW, a Chevy Bolt would likely do Eugenie to Portland on a single charge.

alozzy said:

If I was in the OPs shoes, I would buy a 2013 S + QC, for less than $9k, that spent its entire life in the PNW. Here are some good examples:

http://www.paramountmotorsnw.com/inventory.asp?dealerSel=&showOnly=Nissan&sortBy=adprice

His payments on a 5 year loan would be <$150 per month, assuming a small down payment.

Most of the depreciation has already been realized on a 4 year old Leaf, so residual value after 5 years might be $2500. If he buys a 2013 S + QC with 25K miles on it, he'll add about 35k miles over 5 years. For perspective, my PNW 2013 SV has over 50k miles on it and still has an SOH of 91%. He'll probably still have 11 bars after 5 years.

Basically, the car costs him a little over $100 per month BEFORE adjusting for any savings on gas. Given his limited miles and low $/kWh electricity rates, his electricity costs will be less than $15 a month.

For his situation, buying a used Leaf is a no brainer AFAIK. Very similar to my own.

Once the loan is paid off, his only significant cost is to insure it, assuming no unexpected repair bills of course, and a car that old wouldn't be worth putting collision coverage on it - so even insurance will be cheap.

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I live in the Seattle area and have been watching the inventory at Paramount Motors NW for several months, on and off.

Note that you can find out where the car was originally shipped to by clicking on the Carfax report of each car's listing page.

I haven't looked at each car on the site lately, but IME, I have not seen a car from the PNW, but mostly California and some from Georgia (less now that the GA tax rebate ended >2 years ago, IIRC), Arizona, others.

This doesn't mean that they aren't worth buying, but note the majority of Leafs I've perused at Paramount are not from the PNW.

JP

Full disclosure, I purchased from Paramount NW and made sure that it was a PNW Leaf before buying. As you mentioned, Carfax lists the origin and Peter @ Paramount confirmed it. I appreciated doing business with a dealer who was knowledgeable about the Leaf, they even provided a Leaf Spy screenshot and let me do an extended test drive.

I live in Vancouver, BC so for me it was baptism by fire getting the Leaf home from Seattle. Given the OP's mindset, I don't think he would purchase from Paramount anyways, as he would have to drive the Leaf home to Portland. For me, it was well worth it as i saved about $6K CA buying from Seattle and importing the Leaf to Canada.

The OP has lots of local options anyways (albeit at a higher price point than Paramount):

https://goo.gl/TUzIeX

As I said before though, he shouldn't buy a Leaf if he's not prepared to wait to charge on longer trips. As any Leaf owner knows, patience is required if you want to drive beyond the limited range - even if you have a CHADEMO port for DCQC. I infrequently do longer trips and I'm totally fine with having to stop to charge every hour (at high speeds), as long as there is a reasonably priced DCQC option en route. We make the trip to Whistler and I'm hoping to try the trip to the Okanagan (BC) in the near future, as there are DCQC points at regular intervals between Vancouver and Kelowna, BC. It's all about your mindset, I find it fun!

FYI, the original sales sticker also shows the dealership where the Leaf was first sold:

http://cpo.nissanusa.com/nna/?VIN

CarFAx is a company product;
The generic term is vehicle history report

I needed one for tax purposes and found it for free via a google search

People are talking about Carfax in particular because it gives manufacture date and where the vehicle was driven. Does the generic version give that info?

TreeStar said:

I've been researching the 2017 versions of these cars quite a bit lately. The Leaf has absolutely amazing rebates right now. To the tune of $15,000+. Anyone know why that is?

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How much of that figure is from Nissan? Maybe the incentives are regional. Can you say where you are located?

I looked at Nissan USA for my area and the best I could do from Nissan was $4,000 and that is if it is financed through NMAC (Nissan financed).

LeftieBiker said:

People are talking about Carfax in particular because it gives manufacture date and where the vehicle was driven. Does the generic version give that info?

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All the DMV registrations are listed

SageBrush said:

LeftieBiker said:

People are talking about Carfax in particular because it gives manufacture date and where the vehicle was driven. Does the generic version give that info?

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All the DMV registrations are listed

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That doesn't mean the date of manufacture is listed.

TreeStar,

A few thoughts: I suggest that you use 3 miles per kWh for consumption estimates from the wall unless your driving will be mostly city streets at low speed. I looked at the link you posted for Portland General Electric and was surprised how high their rates are. It looks like you might save more with time of use rates, depending upon lifestyle. I recommend against a large down payment on a lease because you lose that money if the car is totaled. Since the total payments on the lease would be the same, put minimum down and save the remainder (cash you would have put down) to spend toward the larger monthly payments.

Battery warranties in USA are: 8 years/100,000 miles against defects for all LEAFs to date, 5 years/60,000 miles capacity will not drop below 9 bars (2013 and later 24 kWh batteries), and 8 years/100,000 miles capacity will not drop below 9 bars (2016 and later 30 kWh batteries).

GerryAZ said:

5 years/60,000 miles capacity will not drop below 9 bars (2013 and later 24 kWh batteries), and 8 years/100,000 miles capacity will not drop below 9 bars (2016 and later 30 kWh batteries).

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So I have 15,000 miles to lose 4 bars to get a free battery that would have 12 bars just like the one I have now.

Living in a cool climate makes all the difference.

I realize the change in mindset required for such a car. I did a trip to the coast recently and "pretended" I only had 90 mile range (based on probably a more accurate number than Nissan/EPA). I would have had no issues on this trip. I didn't put it in my mind to be driving the older one.