LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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edatoakrun said:
jdcbomb said:
...what factors would prevent Nissan from offering a capacity and range at least as good as the Bolt or entry level Model 3?...
Could be Nissan's objective to sell large numbers of BEVs profitably worldwide, and sanity...

It could also be that we just don't know when Nissan will offer the larger battery. We have had no official information on battery size or range from Nissan - we are all just making educated guesses.

We could be really wide of the mark. Maybe the larger battery will be revealed on Sept 6th? Who knows?
Lets wait and see what happens.
 
If it is their battery development plans, would they just only be held to round numbers of 40 kWh or 60 kWh? If they had something in between (45 or 48 or 50) and their stated efficiency and drag are improved (4.5 kW/mi+) we're now easily at 200 mi (instead of 150-160 mi) I think reaching this range would be that psychological / marketing barrier that could allow Nissan to sell a lot more vehicles especially in the USA.
 
geefish said:
edatoakrun said:
jdcbomb said:
...what factors would prevent Nissan from offering a capacity and range at least as good as the Bolt or entry level Model 3?...
Could be Nissan's objective to sell large numbers of BEVs profitably worldwide, and sanity...

It could also be that we just don't know when Nissan will offer the larger battery. We have had no official information on battery size or range from Nissan - we are all just making educated guesses.

We could be really wide of the mark. Maybe the larger battery will be revealed on Sept 6th? Who knows?
Lets wait and see what happens.

we have semi official information about battery size, but not timing
http://cdn.dailykanban.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Leaf_material/60kWh%20battery_02.jpg
http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/2nd-gen-leaf-expected-2018-60kwh-nmc-battery-300-mile-range-autonomous-cfrp/

there are other sources as well as 60kWh packs that tie back to Nissan (and not just rumor)
what is rumor is when the 60kWh pack is coming, and what it goes into.
 
geefish said:
edatoakrun said:
jdcbomb said:
...what factors would prevent Nissan from offering a capacity and range at least as good as the Bolt or entry level Model 3?...
Could be Nissan's objective to sell large numbers of BEVs profitably worldwide, and sanity...
It could also be that we just don't know when Nissan will offer the larger battery...

Nissan almost certainly will offer BEVs with batteries with available capacities greater than 60 kWh at some point in the future.

And at or before the LEAF Gen two announcement next month, Nissan might also announce an optional higher-capacity pack.

But I think it's very likely the vast majority of Gen two LEAFs sold over the next few years will have an AESC-supplied-battery pack with available capacity somewhere between 30 and 40 kWh.

I'll be as happy as anyone when the any BEV manufacturer offers the first decent-sized and well-appointed vehicle (like the Gen one LEAF) with a ~60 kWh available pack for ~$30 k.

I just don't think that's gonna happen, for at least a few more years, and I don't plan on waiting for it.
 
I think it is quite logical and inevitable that a 60 kWh Nissan will be available in a vehicle in the next couple years. I just wonder if it's cost, value, or tech limitation would prevent the company from offering it now rather than later, especially given the competition. I think having ProPilot, safety features, comfort options, etc area are great and will garner more interest...but it seems that the range question is the main and fundamental reason why more do not buy. Limiting the offering to 40 kWh (not that I know for sure) seems counterproductive.
 
jdcbomb said:
I think it is quite logical and inevitable that a 60 kWh Nissan will be available in a vehicle in the next couple years. I just wonder if it's cost, value, or tech limitation would prevent the company from offering it now rather than later, especially given the competition. I think having ProPilot, safety features, comfort options, etc area are great and will garner more interest...but it seems that the range question is the main and fundamental reason why more do not buy. Limiting the offering to 40 kWh (not that I know for sure) seems counterproductive.

I think that there are two target groups to consider: EV drivers like most of us, and the general public. I agree that the latter will likely shy away from the 40kwh Leaf because of range concerns. I also think, though, that drivers of existing EVs who know what their actual range needs are, and who don't need more than 140 miles, will choose the Leaf because it looks to be the best car in most categories, once range is excluded. Unless some stupid design flaw like the Bolt's seats (which I still suspect were deliberate market sabotage on the part of GM) turns up, then the "Leaf Too" (copyright!) will prove to be the comfortable, roomy, refined EV to beat in the sub $40k market.
 
TheJeebas said:
Tesla Model 3 Long-Range - $44,000 | 70 kWh (est total) | 310 miles EPA Range | $142 per mile | 4.4285 mpkWh (est total)
Tesla Model 3 Standard - $35,000 | 50 kWh (est total) | 220 miles EPA Range | $159 per mile | 4.4 mpkWh (est total)
2017 Chevrolet Bolt - $36,680 | 60 kWh (total) | 238 miles EPA Range | $154 per mile | 3.96 mpkWh (total)
2017 Hyundai Ioniq - $29,500 | 28 kWh (total) | 125 miles EPA Range | $236 per mile | 4.46 mpkWh (total)
2017 Nissan Leaf - $30,680 | 30 kWh (total) | 107 miles EPA Range | $287 per mile | 3.56 mpkWh (total)

2018 Nissan Leaf - $29,990 | 40 kWh (total) | 150 miles EPA Range (est) | $200 per mile | 3.75 mpkWh (total)

Comparing EVs on price/range is not very helpful. Because range is not linear. Range is logarithmic. A range of 200 miles is not twice as useful as a range of 100 miles. Only 50% more useful. Comparison should be price/logarithmic range.
 
Range is logarithmic? How so?

The value proposition of range is both subjective and personal...

For someone with an 80 mile round trip commute and no charging options at work, a 30 kWh Leaf is useless if the commute involves frequent 70 mph sections or extreme winter conditions. For that same commuter, an EV with 200 miles of range would be viable and compelling.

For another person, the 200 miles range might be nice to have for the odd long trip, but will make little difference for their day to day needs if they have a short commute.

More range is better, but impossible to quantify in a general sense.
 
lorenfb said:
Without government intervention, the ICEV (hybrid type) may remain the mainstay for the near
term future.

I think a strong argument can be made for the Serial EV, a la BMW i3. A 150 mi EV plus a tiny 10 kW generator with a real gas tank that can be turned on at the start of the trip, not just when you run out of e-juice, and where you can have it running over night to charge the pack.

After reading some accounts here, I am convinced that even a 500 mi EV can be problematic due to charging infrastructure lacking and how vehicles are used in real life.

Range Extenders are the way to go, until we graduate from Lithium-ion to Lithium-air.

The current bigotry against range extenders is inexplicable.
 
alozzy said:
Range is logarithmic? How so?

The marginal utility of a mile of range diminishes as the range increases. Surely mile 20 has a much higher utility than mile 1000. This example should show that it is wrong to assume the two have equal utility, or that utility double by doubling the range.

My own experience has been that the marginal utility of mile 150 is about half (or even less) than the utility of mile 50. That is every 100 miles, the utility is halved. Thus value is logarithmic to range.
 
LeftieBiker said:
If what Cwerdna writes about the misadventures of I3 Rex drivers is correct, it's now pretty explicable. ;-)

I was unable to locate what Cwedna writes about the i3 Rex.

If this is about CARB stupidly restricting Rex functionality, then that would be a regulatory issue and not with the serial EV concept. I can understand that it is a pain to carry a smelly gas generator with all its service issues, when you may rarely need it, but as a method to overcome range limitations, it is unbeatable. The criticism I have heard of the i3 Rex is that it has a 3 gallon gas tank and will not start until SoC reaches 20% or so - both very bad CARB ideas.
 
There have apparently been numerous instances of the Rex system dying and "bricking" the whole car - disabling it at the side of, or even in the middle of, the road. I've also read that compared with, say, a Prius, the Rex is dirty and smelly. I personally wouldn't object to either a Ultra Low Emission gasoline Rex or a CNG Rex with a tiny tank, but the BMW system seems cobbled together, and poorly at that.
 
Interleaf said:
LeftieBiker said:
If what Cwerdna writes about the misadventures of I3 Rex drivers is correct, it's now pretty explicable. ;-)

I was unable to locate what Cwedna writes about the i3 Rex.
To put it simply, the i3 REx is a POS from a reliability POV. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=477302#p477302 and what I pointed to at myrav4ev.com and some of the following posts both there and here on MNL.

I'm not clear if the problems are closer to being resolved w/'17 i3 RExes but it seems pretty clear that those with earlier model years seem to be in for a rough time. I still stand by what I say towards the end. There is no way I would want an out of warranty i3 REx. Even one within the warranty seems too troublesome.

I do not recommend anyone lease or buy an i3 REx. If they really want an i3, they should get the BEV version and consider only leasing. If they buy, dump when the warranty's over.

If I had a cushy low stress job w/limited hours required or were retired, ok, I'd have more time for an extra "hobby" of always taking it to the spa.
Interleaf said:
The criticism I have heard of the i3 Rex is that it has a 3 gallon gas tank and will not start until SoC reaches 20% or so -
I believe it's actually 1.9 gallons usable (http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/01/22/bmw-i3-rex-u-s-fact-2-4-gallons-tank/) and the REx engine IIRC doesn't engage until 5 or 6% SoC. Because the engine is so wimpy and underpowered, unless you "code" it, you would NOT want to take it up uphill grades at highway or even leisurely speeds.

Examples:
http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15434#p15434 - couldn't go faster than 9 mph
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/permalink/764362933637570/?comment_id=766242970116233&offset=0&total_comments=5 - also reported getting as low as 9 mph
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/permalink/651964284877436/ - couldn't go faster than 35 or 40 mph
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/permalink/1050421328365061/?comment_id=1050833724990488&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D - got stuck at 25 mph

You will need to join the i3 FB group to see the FB comments. This is not the crux of my criticism. Although these speeds are dangerous if on a highway, this is better than a pure BEV w/a dead battery trying to climb those same roads.
 
OrientExpress said:
OK, EVNow, you are an outlier, nothing wrong with that. And I am also talking about the average trip statistic. 60 miles or less.

https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/...nal_household_travel_survey/daily_travel.html

I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Look at the entire distribution of miles travelled - not just average. People don't buy a vehicle for their "average" needs. They buy to fulfill 90%+ of their needs - not 50% of their needs.

ps : my commute is 10 to 20 miles roundtrip.
 
evnow said:
I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Look at the entire distribution of miles travelled - not just average. People don't buy a vehicle for their "average" needs. They buy to fulfill 90%+ of their needs - not 50% of their needs.

ps : my commute is 10 to 20 miles roundtrip.

We are in agreement that people buy to fulfill 90% of their needs and that for 95% of the population cars like the LEAF do just that. The sticking point is confusing perceived needs vs. actual needs. Most don't really keep track of how much they drive in a week/month/year, and still, use the "tank to tank" method of estimating needed range rather than the day to day needs. One of the strongest arguments for an EV is that with the ability to charge each evening and destination charging, the car has a "full tank" each day.

With EV's now offering mid and long range "tank" capacities the whole range argument is quickly becoming moot, as is the obsession of focusing on the single criteria of how many miles an EV can travel on one charge. Again this applies to the general population and acknowledging that there will always be outliers that these criteria do not apply to. The challenge now is how well this new generation of EVs passes the "Value" test.

What is the "Value" test? It's the combination of features, usability, reliability, style, and cost.

This is why I don't think that 200+ mile range as the sole criteria for EV consideration is really valid. And the market and some of the leading manufacturers seem to agree.

For example, the Chevy Bolt. Yes, it has 230+ miles of range and its technology is commendable. So why has it been a flop in the market, with GM selling them at a loss to get them off dealers lots? It's because the Bolt's features, value, and cost are off balance.

GM chose the sub-compact Gamma platform for the car which is designed for the European and Asian markets, stuck an expensive 60kWh battery in it, and ended up with a $42K car with a package that just does not pass the value test. (sure they have a $36K version, but that car fails the value test even more).

The Tesla Model 3 faces a similar issue. Despite its record setting pre-order interest, it is even more off balance both for Tesla and those that have expressed an interest in obtaining the car based on the illusion of it being a $35K vehicle. Tesla admits the real entry point is more like $45K, and that is the ASP that the majority of Model 3s will be sold at. Technically and stylistically the Model 3 is a nice effort, but it is off balance in that it is beyond the means of a good chunk of those that have put down reservations.

Then there is the new LEAF. I suspect that Nissan understands their target market very well, and knows that the sweet spot for them is having a well-equipped car with reliability, style, and value that starts under $30K and maxes out at $36K. If that means offering an EV that has a slightly shorter range to achieve that balance that is what they will do. But they will also ride the cost curve and continue to add value for the price points their market demands. So with that in mind, I expect that as soon as they can offer a 230+ mile version that fits in their value space and they can make money doing it, they will.
 
Interleaf said:
The current bigotry against range extenders is inexplicable.
I like the mechanical simplicity of a pure EV. I don't want any tailpipe emissions. That's what keeps me away from the Prii, Volts and i3+Rex.
 
jlv said:
Interleaf said:
The current bigotry against range extenders is inexplicable.
I like the mechanical simplicity of a pure EV. I don't want any tailpipe emissions. That's what keeps me away from the Prii, Volts and i3+Rex.
^THIS. All over the place, this.
I won't buy another gasoline powered anything. Electric all the way on all things. All of my lawn equipment is lithium ion battery powered, including lawn mower, blower, hedge trimmer, chainsaw, etc, etc. I think the only things that I have that done run on lithium batteries are my electric plug-in cement mixer and my electric plug-in post hole auger. When I get my Model 3, our dino burner will pretty much only be used when we go camping, only because I won't want to ding/dirty up my Model 3.
 
OrientExpress said:
evnow said:
I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Look at the entire distribution of miles travelled - not just average. People don't buy a vehicle for their "average" needs. They buy to fulfill 90%+ of their needs - not 50% of their needs.

ps : my commute is 10 to 20 miles roundtrip.

We are in agreement that people buy to fulfill 90% of their needs and that for 95% of the population cars like the LEAF do just that. The sticking point is confusing perceived needs vs. actual needs. Most don't really keep track of how much they drive in a week/month/year, and still, use the "tank to tank" method of estimating needed range rather than the day to day needs. One of the strongest arguments for an EV is that with the ability to charge each evening and destination charging, the car has a "full tank" each day.

With EV's now offering mid and long range "tank" capacities the whole range argument is quickly becoming moot, as is the obsession of focusing on the single criteria of how many miles an EV can travel on one charge. Again this applies to the general population and acknowledging that there will always be outliers that these criteria do not apply to. The challenge now is how well this new generation of EVs passes the "Value" test.

What is the "Value" test? It's the combination of features, usability, reliability, style, and cost.

This is why I don't think that 200+ mile range as the sole criteria for EV consideration is really valid. And the market and some of the leading manufacturers seem to agree.

For example, the Chevy Bolt. Yes, it has 230+ miles of range and its technology is commendable. So why has it been a flop in the market, with GM selling them at a loss to get them off dealers lots? It's because the Bolt's features, value, and cost are off balance.

GM chose the sub-compact Gamma platform for the car which is designed for the European and Asian markets, stuck an expensive 60kWh battery in it, and ended up with a $42K car with a package that just does not pass the value test. (sure they have a $36K version, but that car fails the value test even more).

The Tesla Model 3 faces a similar issue. Despite its record setting pre-order interest, it is even more off balance both for Tesla and those that have expressed an interest in obtaining the car based on the illusion of it being a $35K vehicle. Tesla admits the real entry point is more like $45K, and that is the ASP that the majority of Model 3s will be sold at. Technically and stylistically the Model 3 is a nice effort, but it is off balance in that it is beyond the means of a good chunk of those that have put down reservations.

Then there is the new LEAF. I suspect that Nissan understands their target market very well, and knows that the sweet spot for them is having a well-equipped car with reliability, style, and value that starts under $30K and maxes out at $36K. If that means offering an EV that has a slightly shorter range to achieve that balance that is what they will do. But they will also ride the cost curve and continue to add value for the price points their market demands. So with that in mind, I expect that as soon as they can offer a 230+ mile version that fits in their value space and they can make money doing it, they will.
Well said! The further down the cost chain that all manufacturers go, the greater the number of customers that can be accessed. We're seeing this will used Leafs. Unfortunately, all manufactures DO NOT currently have capacity to produce enough batteries or vehicles at the $15-$20,000 cost with 150-200 mi range. I hope that Tesla's 400,000 reservations actually pushes the rest of the manufactures to realize that EVs are the future and to actually make them compelling and cost effective at the 150-200 mi range.
 
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