Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

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drees said:
I finally prevailed in convincing Nissan to provide out-of-warranty assistance to replace my battery pack!
:D :D :D :D :D
That is the best news I have heard this month!! Congrats, Drees!! (Also, thanks for all the work you put in here! You deserved a new pack just for that!
 
Durandal said:
I suspect they decided to unofficially extend the warranty on the older ones to match the newer ones on the pro-rated basis for customer retention. That, and the fact that the battery has an 8 year warranty to not go 100% out on you,

the wording is as clear as you are going to get and you will find the wording across all manufacturers to be pretty much the same. the 8 years you refer to has nothing to do with capacity, only workmanship. Mentioning this only brings out confusion especially since 30 kwh packs have the 8 year "degradation" warranty.

we all know cars come with SEVERAL warranty periods covering all kinds of crap. lets not muddy the waters further.
 
drees said:
I finally prevailed in convincing Nissan to provide out-of-warranty assistance to replace my battery pack!

A new lizard pack is in the car now and the car feels almost new again. Drove almost 70 miles from 80% to almost VLBW to test it out (though I think the 80% charge was actually a bit more than 80% as the cell voltages seemed a bit high at 4.04-4.05 V for 80%) - that was at a mediocre 4.2 mi/kWh.

Battery took in 23.74 kWh from the wall according to Blink charging back up to 100%, so it will should take in about 25 kWh from the wall from turtle to 100% which is what you'd expect from a new 24 kWh battery. Regenerative braking is back to normal and efficiency appears to be up a decent amount thanks to the improved regenerative braking along with less voltage droop under load.

History:

Apr 2010 - Reserved
Jun 2011 - Delivered
Sep 2013 - 12th bar gone 22k mi
Nov 2014 - 11th bar gone 33k mi
Oct 2015 - 10th bar gone 43k mi
Aug 2016 - 9th bar gone 53k mi - out of warranty assistance denied
May 2017 - 8th bar gone 61k mi - re-started quest to get out of warranty assistance
Aug 2017 - out of warranty assistance granted!

Contrary to what we were originally led to believe, there does not appear to be any "glide path" with regards to rate of capacity loss. If anything it seemed to accelerate. Also, even here in San Diego's mild climate the rate of capacity loss is about double what Nissan said to expect.

This is great news! For "years" (it seems...) I have wondered why you were the only one who was getting stonewalled. FYI; your replacement battery promises to be much better than your OEM!
 
drees said:
I finally prevailed in convincing Nissan to provide out-of-warranty assistance to replace my battery pack!
Good for you!
Are you under NDA, or can you provide some details what it took to change Nissan's mind ?
 
SageBrush said:
drees said:
I finally prevailed in convincing Nissan to provide out-of-warranty assistance to replace my battery pack!
Good for you!
Are you under NDA, or can you provide some details what it took to change Nissan's mind ?

not a change of mind. only a change in reality.

16 months ago, I predicted pack prices would drop from $6500 to $3500. I was "wrong" since from a marketing standpoint, it was better to hand out huge discounts instead of cutting the price.

This is no different than $33,000 MSRP LEAFs which we ALL know don't sell for that price. It simply leaves a better impression on the customer to think they "got over" on a great deal.
 
SageBrush said:
Are you under NDA, or can you provide some details what it took to change Nissan's mind ?
No NDA. After being denied the first time last August, I asked what other avenues I had. I asked about BBB arbitration since I heard about that, in addition i asked about re-opening after losing another bar and she suggested that I do that.

I had started the BBB process online, but never completed the paperwork and BBB closed my case. To my surprise I still received a letter from Nissan re-confirming that no assistance would be provided.

So I waited until the 5th bar dropped, because to be honest the car still did 90% of what I needed, but the lack of range was really starting cause us to drive the Prius more and was also leading to more public charging, though not enough to justify the EVgo subscription. With the degraded battery EVgo starts getting very expensive even on the Nissan Preferred plan. I charged 30 minutes only putting in 6 kWh once costing $7.50 just so I could make it home.

After losing the 5th bar I started the process again. I was told to bring the car in for another battery check, but then I got a call back saying nope, you're stuck, all decisions are final. WTF! I paid for the battery check again (paid for the previous one in August, despite it being 2 months since my annual) and called back pleading my case.

Denied again. I asked what could be done to escalate, he said nothing. Asked again and got it escalated to arbitration team, but no call back. Called back a couple weeks later, got to speak with a supervisor who was willing to escalate to the executive offices.

I got a call back from the executive office a couple days later, but missed the call and left a message, but my contact went on vacation. Called back again after two more weeks. Crickets.

Finally called the EV hotline again again and they were able to contact the executive office again for me and reopen dialogue. Got a call back few days later from the executive office granting me less than 90% assistance. I agreed and one week later I had a new pack in my LEAF!

I received regular calls from my service advisor at the dealership keeping me updated, and two follow up calls from the executive office making sure everything was ok. They provided an almost new Altima rental for basically free. That part was great. But the agony of debating what to do with a car that was quickly losing utility was very frustrating. And I'm still not happy about having to replace the pack in the first place at only 60k miles as that defeats a lot of the purpose of buying an EV for environmental reasons.

Tips I gathered along the way which may help your case:
1. Be pleasant and professional, but persistent.
2. Using the dealership for recommended service.
3. Being original owner and owning other Nissans.
4. How far out of warranty you are. The closer the better.

In the end though, it appears that they have some magic 8 ball making these decisions.
 
drees said:
...I'm still not happy about having to replace the pack in the first place at only 60k miles as that defeats a lot of the purpose of buying an EV for environmental reasons...
Assuming your pack has gone on to a long and successful second life in a stationary application, I think you have little cause to be unhappy .

drees said:
...I waited until the 5th bar dropped, because to be honest the car still did 90% of what I needed...
That will not be the case, for me.

~99% of my daily trips are over 50 miles, and ~95% starting with a ~1500 ft descent, meaning charging to 100% is just a waste of kWh.

Still no DC's up here in the ~top third of CA yet, nor even convenient and dependable public L2 sites.

I also live where winter range reduction is quite significant.

By this Winter, I expect my pack to be down ~20% from delivery, ~22.5% from "24 kWh" spec, and ~36% as indicated by my LBC.

Meaning, a simple trip to the grocery store will be a real PIA, on any very cold or stormy day.

So, I plan on following-up my previous complaint with Nissan (RE my sub-"24 kWh" pack on delivery) pretty soon.

="edatoakrun

...Six years and 52k miles passed a few weeks ago. (5/15/17)

Very pleased overall, with my LEAF's performance....

Knowing the approximate nominal kWh available to LBW and VLB from my initial charge of "80%" or "100%", and watching the Nav screen m/kWh while I drive, I know both my nominal kWh used, and what are the approximate N kWh remaining wherever I drive, and can avoid all anxiety caused by the often "pessimistic" estimates from the LBC, of kWh remaining.

I also have a pretty good idea of what my LEAF's total and available battery capacity loss over time has been.

At six years and 52 k miles, my best estimates are:

My LEAF's pack had slightly under 19 kWh total capacity (as per AVTA test standards) and about 17 kWh available, when warm, at ~80 F.

That's about a 21% reduction from the 24 kWh Nissan specified, and ~18.5% lower than the average capacity Nissan actually delivered in 2012, according to AVTA testing of multiple LEAF packs.

My LEAF's range loss has been considerably lower than capacity loss since delivery.

At the relatively slow speeds (mostly mountain roads) I drive my own LEAF's efficiency gain reflects the high driving ranges relative to capacity shown in the AVTA 2012 LEAF 45 mph constant-speed tests, for the LEAFs with the less abused L2-charged packs.

I expect my LEAF's range loss per "100%" charge since delivery probably averaged close to 15% over the last year, higher in Winter and lower in Summer.

The ~32.5% Loss of capacity my LEAF's "pessimistic" LBC showed at six years and 52 k is really only of concern to me in how Nissan will consider this factor when I request (or demand) a replacement battery pack for my LEAF, which I'll probably be doing before Winter.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23733&start=40
 
drees said:
SageBrush said:
Are you under NDA, or can you provide some details what it took to change Nissan's mind ?
No NDA. After being denied the first time last August, I asked what other avenues I had. I asked about BBB arbitration since I heard about that, in addition i asked about re-opening after losing another bar and she suggested that I do that.

I had started the BBB process online, but never completed the paperwork and BBB closed my case. To my surprise I still received a letter from Nissan re-confirming that no assistance would be provided.

So I waited until the 5th bar dropped...
Holly molly. I would have given up a long time ago and I call myself persistent.
 
jhm614 said:
drees said:
I finally prevailed in convincing Nissan to provide out-of-warranty assistance to replace my battery pack!
:D :D :D :D :D
That is the best news I have heard this month!! Congrats, Drees!! (Also, thanks for all the work you put in here! You deserved a new pack just for that!
+++++++++++++1
 
I know there has been a lot of criticism of Nissan policies but I'm almost ready to say that overall Nissan took care of the original owners, some of us had to work more than others but with some effort many were able to get a new pack for free or at a discount. Even with the BBB process I felt Nissan didn't play hardball. Oh well, I'm sure there are other opinions as well, but I think the car will work out quite well for the most of us who committed to it long-term.
 
Valdemar said:
I know there has been a lot of criticism of Nissan policies but I'm almost ready to say that overall Nissan took care of the original owners, some of us had to work more than others but with some effort many were able to get a new pack for free or at a discount. Even with the BBB process I felt Nissan didn't play hardball. Oh well, I'm sure there are other opinions as well, but I think the car will work out quite well for the most of us who committed to it long-term.

ya ya... I am sure the fact that the pack cost is probably ¼to ½ as much as before also played a part...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
16 months ago, I predicted pack prices would drop from $6500 to $3500. I was "wrong" since from a marketing standpoint, it was better to hand out huge discounts instead of cutting the price.

This is no different than $33,000 MSRP LEAFs which we ALL know don't sell for that price. It simply leaves a better impression on the customer to think they "got over" on a great deal.

This is a great point, hadn't thought of it that way. I hope you are right and that eventually Nissan decides to simply lower the MSRP on replacement packs. My 2015 is doing well at ~ 8% capacity loss at 29k miles, so I expect to lose the first bar at ~ 40k miles and thus the second by 60k miles. At that point (after 2nd bar loss) I would replace the pack if the cost were reasonable, especially if Nissan makes the 30 kWh pack available for MY2015 Leafs.

And before someone says "Nissan won't do that b/c they want you to buy a new Nissan," I won't buy another Nissan if they do me this way. I didn't buy this car to throw it away after 60k miles, so if Nissan doesn't figure out a way to replace those degraded packs at a very reasonable cost I will look to another manufacturer for my next EV.
 
So far as I know, 24 kWh packs are not being built anymore. So the replacement pack people are imagining they are going to buy in a few years will have sat in a warehouse for years prior to purchase, and come with a 1 year warranty. The same will happen with the 30 kWh packs a few years later.
 
SageBrush said:
So far as I know, 24 kWh packs are not being built anymore. So the replacement pack people are imagining they are going to buy in a few years will have sat in a warehouse for years prior to purchase, and come with a 1 year warranty. The same will happen with the 30 kWh packs a few years later.

Since you admittedly don't know. I think you should hold your comments.
 
Bufordleaf said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
16 months ago, I predicted pack prices would drop from $6500 to $3500. I was "wrong" since from a marketing standpoint, it was better to hand out huge discounts instead of cutting the price.

This is no different than $33,000 MSRP LEAFs which we ALL know don't sell for that price. It simply leaves a better impression on the customer to think they "got over" on a great deal.

This is a great point, hadn't thought of it that way. I hope you are right and that eventually Nissan decides to simply lower the MSRP on replacement packs. My 2015 is doing well at ~ 8% capacity loss at 29k miles, so I expect to lose the first bar at ~ 40k miles and thus the second by 60k miles. At that point (after 2nd bar loss) I would replace the pack if the cost were reasonable, especially if Nissan makes the 30 kWh pack available for MY2015 Leafs.

And before someone says "Nissan won't do that b/c they want you to buy a new Nissan," I won't buy another Nissan if they do me this way. I didn't buy this car to throw it away after 60k miles, so if Nissan doesn't figure out a way to replace those degraded packs at a very reasonable cost I will look to another manufacturer for my next EV.


Ok, your situation would be different you probably won't see a great discount. They do seem to be following a program of sorts determining discounts based on several factors but mostly on how close people were to missing the warranty. The closer, the bigger the discount. It seems several who missed by less than a year and had low mileage were getting 100%. Those missing by a less than a year with higher mileage getting 80%, etc.

For someone who hasn't gotten to the replacement level at all, I am not sure how that would work. We do have the advantage that pack replacement prices "should" go down but they won't go down to market value. That would be a mistake on Nissan's part because that encourages people to hang onto their old LEAFs and not upgrade to the newer ones.

I don't think that would be a widespread problem because it would appear "at this time" that Nissan will be offering VERY compelling reasons to get the 2018 especially if the 2018 SV with tech package actually does come in @ $35,000. With the tax credits still in place for likely most of 2018, that deal would be very hard to resist.

Even with the reduced range, its still a big range jump. A jump that exceeds the needs of the majority so not the "be all to end all" by any means but its

*several thousand less than Tesla with tech

* a few thousand less than Bolt with much lower level of tech.


So very much in a niche of its own.


So we have Tesla 3; still high end $$$, longer range, enhanced SC network (at least planned for my area) emerging tech, super cool

Bolt; very good range, $$, but not very well executed. Its a love it or hate it car. There seems to be no middle ground here. I consider it to be an econobox with battery on steroids.

LEAF II; Cheapest of the 3, also has emerging tech. More range but considerably below the Tesla extended and a 3rd range less than Bolt but has 2 years NCTC, more public charging support and guessing still more surprises that the reveal will reveal.

and finally; Nissan with best lease terms combined with loyalty credits does put it on equal footing with the other two.

So its all really dependent on your needs. There is no bad choice here.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/08/eeny-meeny-miney-moe-wait-something-is.html
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
So far as I know, 24 kWh packs are not being built anymore. So the replacement pack people are imagining they are going to buy in a few years will have sat in a warehouse for years prior to purchase, and come with a 1 year warranty. The same will happen with the 30 kWh packs a few years later.

Since you admittedly don't know. I think you should hold your comments.
I know that the 24 kWh packs are deprecated technology and Nissan has stated formally that the later packs will not fit.
I know that US law requires a manufacturer to offer replacement parts for 10 years

Do you have something useful to offer other than a blind faith in Nissan ? A faith I might add, that is a joke given Nissan's factual behavior towards LEAF customers. You live in la la land, and do a disservice towards people with limited funds who are being tempted to buy used LEAFs as inexpensive long-term transportation. I find your stance hypocritical since you know enough to lease and avoid the fall-out of your recommendations to others.
 
Some of you might have seen my post on SFBayLeafs
I've a 2011 Leaf with 91K (8bars) and got an offer of 50-50 to replace the battery pack. This will put me in the out of pocket of close to 4K.. When I asked if I can get 80-20, rep said it is take it or leave it offer..

I didn't go for Battery check from 3rd year. Car hasn't gone to a dealer after 2nd free battery check and the Service Bulletin.
So everything against me -
  • ~2 years after the warranty
    No Servicing Doen after 2nd year
    30+K more miles than the 60K warranty
Others who got 60-40 or better, what is your mileage on your Leaf?

Should I try going with other dealers or asking for escalation?
 
vijayl said:
Should I try going with other dealers or asking for escalation?
No. Sounds like a waste of time.
In your case Nissan is being quite reasonable. Generous even.

Lucky for you the LEAF2 is coming out soon and Nissan is on its best behavior.
 
vijayl said:
Some of you might have seen my post on SFBayLeafs
I've a 2011 Leaf with 91K (8bars) and got an offer of 50-50 to replace the battery pack. This will put me in the out of pocket of close to 4K..

Replacement pack shouldn't be more than 6k installed considering the 1k old pack core. Why 4k? They don't want to pick up the labor to install it?
 
Valdemar said:
vijayl said:
Some of you might have seen my post on SFBayLeafs
I've a 2011 Leaf with 91K (8bars) and got an offer of 50-50 to replace the battery pack. This will put me in the out of pocket of close to 4K..

Replacement pack shouldn't be more than 6k installed considering the 1k old pack core. Why 4k? They don't want to pick up the labor to install it?
I'll know the actual quote tomorrow, when I go to the dealer. Nissan Rep told me it could be ~3.2k + Tax.

I'm assuming the packs are 2017 packs, correct?
 
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