Battery temp management for new leaf

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
edatoakrun said:
From AVTA test results, it looks like the liquid cooled Tesla packs in the B class BEVs, on average ... suffered ~6% pack degradation over one year and ~12k miles.
Click to expand...


http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-battery-degradation-data/ is much better data
We know that battery packs start out with capacities that are +/- about 2% of rated so the first year loss of range is hard to interpret. From about 10k km onward the degradation is around 0.3% per 10k km. And keep in mind that these cars are DC fast charged in excess of 100 kW.

uc
 
SageBrush said:
edatoakrun said:
From AVTA test results, it looks like the liquid cooled Tesla packs in the B class BEVs, on average ... suffered ~6% pack degradation over one year and ~12k miles.
Click to expand...


http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-battery-degradation-data/ is much better data...]
Click to expand...

"Better data" because:

It's NOT even for the same model BEVs or, or even the same packs?

Or because It's a compilation of junk data, from Tesla's on-board BMS estimates, rather than from actual testing?
 
edatoakrun said:
Or because It's a compilation of junk data, from Tesla's on-board BMS estimates, rather than from actual testing?
Click to expand...
You are so FOS.

I'll take the on-board Tesla reports any day of the millenium over the LEAF bars.
In any case this data was not provided for you, since you have shown yourself to be either a Nissan shill, crazy troll or a disgruntled short. I just don't want other people to be influenced by your swill.

From the same website I found updated data through 8/2017 with hundreds of data points.
Executive summary: Average 8% capacity loss over 250k KM (155k miles)

uc
 
edatoakrun said:
The B packs degradation rate is somewhat better than The LEAFs (or most all of the other BEVs tested) but how much of the improved retention of capacity was due to active cooling, and how much was due to the reduced number of charge/discharge cycles provided by the B's much larger packs (and also by limiting the drivers' access to a lower percentage of the total pack capacity ?) remains unknown.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter to me. If I have 250 miles rated range left on my 2013 Tesla (appears to be an accurate number based on driving so far) which had 65,000 miles on it at the time I bought it, the rest is meaningless. Also, while the Tesla may be less energy efficient, it takes a lot of energy to make a second (or third) battery pack for the Leaf.
 
Stoaty said:
Also, while the Tesla may be less energy efficient, it takes a lot of energy to make a second (or third) battery pack for the Leaf.
Click to expand...
Be sure to include all the LEAFs that go to the junkyard in under 10 years or less because customers are not willing to pay the $7000 for a replacement pack. I'll leave it to the troll to figure out the wasted embedded energy
 
Stoaty said:
edatoakrun said:
The B packs degradation rate is somewhat better than The LEAFs (or most all of the other BEVs tested) but how much of the improved retention of capacity was due to active cooling, and how much was due to the reduced number of charge/discharge cycles provided by the B's much larger packs (and also by limiting the drivers' access to a lower percentage of the total pack capacity ?) remains unknown.
Click to expand...
...while the Tesla may be less energy efficient, it takes a lot of energy to make a second (or third) battery pack for the Leaf.
Click to expand...
If your LEAF is exceptionally long-lived, and you ever need to put a third ~24 kWh pack in it, you have likely produced about the same adverse environmental impacts of one ~72 kWh pack.

That's still significantly less than the adverse environmental effects from your Tesla's OE (~82 kWh, when new?) pack, though.

Of course, Nissan claims all their packs have second-life potential in stationary applications, while Tesla packs go to the junkyard when the rest of the car is disposed of.

I understand LEAF packs are the highest-priced component from a totaled car.

What's happening to the packs in all the Teslas in junkyards?
 
edatoakrun said:
Stoaty said:
edatoakrun said:
while Tesla packs go to the junkyard when the rest of the car is disposed of.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

More BS. Where do you come up with this crap ?

https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program
That was true in 2011. Complete recycling is planned for the Gigafactory, although it will take a decade before they have enough batteries to turn the process into a business. One of the downsides I guess to having an extra-ordinarily long lived battery.
 
SageBrush said:
Stoaty said:
Also, while the Tesla may be less energy efficient, it takes a lot of energy to make a second (or third) battery pack for the Leaf.
Click to expand...
Be sure to include all the LEAFs that go to the junkyard in under 10 years or less because customers are not willing to pay the $7000 for a replacement pack. I'll leave it to the troll to figure out the wasted embedded energy
Click to expand...

well first off, no packs from any manufacturers are going to the junkyard and 2nd; who is paying $7000 for a LEAF pack? I can't find anyone paying anywhere near half that
 
SageBrush said:
Stoaty said:
Also, while the Tesla may be less energy efficient, it takes a lot of energy to make a second (or third) battery pack for the Leaf.
Click to expand...
Be sure to include all the LEAFs that go to the junkyard in under 10 years or less because customers are not willing to pay the $7000 for a replacement pack. I'll leave it to the troll to figure out the wasted embedded energy
Click to expand...

Can we do without the name-calling, and the "FOS" remarks?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I can't find anyone paying anywhere near half that
Click to expand...
That is what I was telling you in your other thread.
You are self-selecting for people who have agreed to the replacement cost.
 
I think that the very many of us who had our Leaf batteries crater would argue this "better" point...

edatoakrun said:
Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design.
Click to expand...
 
edatoakrun said:
If your LEAF is exceptionally long-lived, and you ever need to put a third ~24 kWh pack in it, you have likely produced about the same adverse environmental impacts of one ~72 kWh pack.
Click to expand...
Good point. I can probably drive the Tesla for another 150-200,000 miles, have great range, and equal the environmental impact of 3 Leaf batteries that have much shorter range! Seriously, all the batteries are getting better/cheaper. The 4 year old Tesla is light years ahead of the 6 year old Leaf. Both will be obsolete in a few years (the Leaf a lot sooner), but I will most likely still be driving the Tesla 10 years from now. My weekly 140 mile trips are a breeze now (no need to charge along the way). Plan to take some trips soon that previously would have required my old ICE vehicle and burning gas.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I can't find anyone paying anywhere near half that
Click to expand...
That is what I was telling you in your other thread.
You are self-selecting for people who have agreed to the replacement cost.
Click to expand...

how am I self selecting? Do you have info on people forced to pay full price? Because I am not getting that info either and this is not the only source of info here. I had one person who told me that they asked for a deal "a year or more back" and was denied but they had only lost 2 bars.

Is this what you are referring to?
 
edatoakrun said:
Liquid cooling is only cost effective if If you have a very expensive pack, or in instances when a flammable battery pack (tesla) makes it a safety requirement.

As battery costs continue to fall rapidly, the added expense and efficiency penalty of liquid cooling makes even less sense than it did in the past.

Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design.
Click to expand...

All valid points!

It seems some forget that there're a number of variables that contribute to long term battery degradation,
i.e. temperature (external, charging, use), aging, number of cycles, how deep the battery is discharged, chemistry.
All of these variables have different coefficients of correlation (R) in the model of battery degradation. To assume
that one variable has a greater R and is dominate for all Leaf owners based on their unique environment,
vehicle use, and age is naive. We also know that battery chemistry has improved from the 2011/12 Leafs resulting
in less degradation. So the following statement has merit:

edatoakrun said:
It would be disappointing if Nissan, in a misguided attempt to satisfy common stupidity, handicaps the Gen two leaf with liquid cooling.
Click to expand...
 
lorenfb said:
It seems some forget that there're a number of variables that contribute to long term battery degradation,
i.e. temperature (external, charging, use), aging, number of cycles, how deep the battery is discharged, chemistry.
All of these variables have different coefficients of correlation (R) in the model of battery degradation. To assume
that one variable has a greater R and is dominate for all Leaf owners based on their unique environment,
vehicle use, and age is naive.
Click to expand...

And this is a valid point, particular when it comes to pack size influencing the depth of the duty cycles. Lack of active cooling may seem like an obvious flaw in LEAF design, but may not be so from an engineering perspective, especially when other considerations and constraints are factored in such as price, reliability, weight, safety, energy efficiency, etc.. These are complex relationships, and the insistence upon a particular engineering feature is, I'd agree, an overly simplistic one if considered an absolute. In the context of one's own relationship to the different sets of compromises (e.g. Tesla vs. Nissan), it may well be spot-on. But not for everyone.

If LEAF sales fall off a cliff in deference to Model 3, then the claims will have proven to be true. Personally I don't expect that to happen. Time will tell.
 
edatoakrun said:
Stoaty said:
edatoakrun said:
Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design.
Click to expand...
My "better" 2011 Leaf lost over 30% capacity in 6 years. By contrast, the 2013 Tesla Model S I recently purchased for $43,000 has lost about 5% of original capacity...
Click to expand...
From AVTA test results, it looks like the liquid cooled Tesla packs in the B class BEVs, on average required ~30% more Wh per mile driven than the LEAFs, and suffered ~6% pack degradation over one year and ~12k miles.

The B packs degradation rate is somewhat better than The LEAFs (or most all of the other BEVs tested) but how much of the improved retention of capacity was due to active cooling, and how much was due to the reduced number of charge/discharge cycles provided by the B's much larger packs (and also by limiting the drivers' access to a lower percentage of the total pack capacity ?) remains unknown.

Unfortunately, no one (to my knowledge) has ever conducted independent testing of any Tesla BEVs, in order to determine accurate battery degradation rates.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2015-mercedes-b-class
Click to expand...

My 2013 volt meanwhile uses the same kwhrs to charge today 47,000 miles later as it did new.
Discharges the same 10.3kwhrs today as it did new.

This guys EV range is within the margin of error

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

Maybe a battery temperature system is a good idea?
 
rmay635703 said:
My 2013 volt meanwhile uses the same kwhrs to charge today 47,000 miles later as it did new.
Discharges the same 10.3kwhrs today as it did new.

Maybe a battery temperature system is a good idea?
Click to expand...

A thermal management system is a probably good idea in AZ. Near Seattle, maybe not so good. At least that is what studies and experience have shown. No gain in battery life at best, more energy used. Local experience seems to agree. Local Leafs have gotten close to 100k miles before loss of first bar. If loss is linear, 70% loss would come at about 200k miles. Competing similar cars with TMS didn't do as well. Why? They seem to average higher battery temperatures. Or maybe just different battery chemistries.


As for Volt vs Leaf:
Volt has multiple differences from a Leaf.
TMS vs passive cooling.
Volt uses smaller fraction of battery.
Different battery chemistries.

Which factor(s) really matter, and by how much? And how do you know?

Why are you so sure TMS is the only factor?
 
The Volt I linked to is closing in on 400,000 miles with no appreciable degradation.

No volt has gone in for a degraded battery .

So whether it's a low DOD or the thermal management does it matter which if it works?
 
This conversation is pointless because you are all talking about totally different cars, for totally different duty cycles.

You cant say that the Leaf sux because it is not as good as the Tesla. The Tesla is a premium luxury car that is bought (excuse me... Leased) by the very rich who don't care how much it costs, or how long it will last. Yes the "premium" battery is huge, and it will take a decade until they deteriorate to a "useless" state. However, Tesla will never be a mainstream car and share driveways with people who drive Hondas and Toyotas.

You cant say that the Leaf sux because it is not as good as the Volt.. The Volt is a HYBRID (with a bigger battery than any hybrid). That car will use the battery only mode as a gimmick, and then go to gasoline operation when it feels like it, to save the battery and not discharge it to any great extent in order to keep the number of discharge cycles low. I personally have a 12 year old Hybrid, and it still works find. So this car doesn't count.

Finally, You cant say that the Leaf sux because of the cooling issues or because of the lower lifetime of its batteries... It is perfectly adequate in a temperate environment. Just so happens that people insist on forcing the Leaf to run in hot desert temperatures that would make an iguana puke. I think the Leaf should never have been sold in those states.... Just like Chevy limited the state in which they sold the Bolt.

What most do not consider is that the Leaf propels the car every second of operation PURELY from battery power. Like a cordless drill. The fact that it can go 100 miles on a charge and gives AC, and heat, and everything else is a minor miracle. If you cannot appreciate that and still complain about the Leaf, then you are probably one of those who thinks their latest IPhone is crap and need to run out to buy the new one when it comes out.

Why don't we just have a regular discussion that If the new Leaf has active cooling, then range will take a hit, just like the use of AC and heat lowers the car's effective range.... Maybe Nissan should make those Desert drivers pay a premium for the active cooling (as an option) and then have lower range. That will shut up the complainers. All of this stuff is science and Physics, and there is no free lunch when you need to balance all of these factors.... It is not the fault of the manufactures that heat is bad for batteries, it is pure science fact that we cannot deny... So... Be smart and don't drive a Leaf where it is hot.
 
powersurge said:
Why don't we just have a regular discussion that If the new Leaf has active cooling, then range will take a hit, just like the use of AC and heat lowers the car's effective range.....
Click to expand...
Well said. And, in the end, after knowing the pros and cons of the design and capabilities of individual EVs - I presume anyone who is half way savvy will choose a vehicle that best meets their needs and situation. Name calling and artificial outrage are hardly a necessary part of that process.
 

Similar threads

D
Adjunct battery packs?
Replies
8
Views
429
EVPowers
EVPowers
S
Will Nissan honor a new battery cell 2018 Nissan Leaf with 101,000 ( five years old)
Replies
8
Views
5K
Dooglas
D
S
Will Nissan honor a new battery cell 2018 Nissan Leaf with 101,000 ( five years old)
Replies
0
Views
2K
sthomson321
S
S
Will Nissan honor a new battery cell 2018 Nissan Leaf with 101,000 ( five years old)
Replies
0
Views
2K
sthomson321
S
K
Sold our 2020 LEAF SV.
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
hradek
H

Latest posts

Back
Top