2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
So, the only Leaf battery data I concern myself with is Ahrs and battery output impedance (both LeafDD & LeafSpy
calculate), another measure of battery condition over time like with any battery type.
I'd like to hear your opinion:

LeafSpy gives me Ahr and Voltage numbers at the top of my cell voltage histogram. I presume the Ahr is extrapolated out to a full battery, while the voltage appears to be average cell voltage * 96. So e.g from the photo below 384.11*58.15/1000 = 22.33 kWh

If I charge to 100% and calculate the Ahrs*voltage, would that be an accurate kWh capacity of the battery ? I'm inclined to say no because the voltage decreases as the energy is consumed. But lets say that I knew the average battery voltage from 0 - 100% SoC. Could I then calculate an accurate usable kWh capacity ?

uc

Your approach is valid and accurate to evaluate the battery's energy at any point in time or for any SOC.

The battery voltage is nominally about 370 (96 X 3.85 volts) under partial load. The battery voltage drops very little
as the battery's Ahrs availability declines, i.e. reduced SOC, and also as the battery ages. So given that, why not just
be concerned with Ahrs and focus on monitoring that battery parameter exclusive of the nominal battery voltage.
Most likely if one would compare a near new battery with one that had lost 4 -5 bars (6+ years old), the voltage
difference would be less than 5 - 10%, i.e. battery life is all about loss of Ahrs.

One might conclude that your approach is more rigorous than just monitoring Ahrs when evaluating the battery's
condition. Personally, I find it easier when I power-on the Leaf after its overnight charge to immediately determine its
capacity as I begin my daily drive and during my drive. So by quickly knowing the Ahrs and my typical range of about
2 miles/Ahrs, I know the basic condition of the state of the battery when I need to be concerned about getting
to a charging station, if need be, and making it home without reliance on the Leaf's unreliable SOC or GOM.

Note: Your Leaf battery appears to be aging better than mine when it was at your mileage, i.e. mine was 55 Ahrs
and presently at 51 Ahrs @ 51K & 12 bars.
 
lorenfb said:
So given that, why not just
be concerned with Ahrs and focus on monitoring that battery parameter exclusive of the nominal battery voltage.
Fair point. I was trying to scrape up a few percent from somewhere to convince myself that I was not seeing a 1.5% monthly degradation.
 
cwerdna said:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1591060294298139/ is a report of a 3 bar loser on a 30 kWh car. Post says location is Chandler, AZ, states car is 1.5 years old and shows 14,099 miles on the odo.

So he gets a new battery with the next bar loss?

Sam Backus, also from AZ, is reporting 3 bar loss in that same thread....
 
jbuntz said:
I lost my first bar at 9,245 mi 61.68 AHr SOH 77% Hx 75.83
That sounds like another data point that points towards Nissan using a lower SoC before a bar is lost.

As for the other data, all I can is say is "ouch," but to clarify : your posted readings are from the time the bar was lost, right ?
 
SageBrush said:
jbuntz said:
I lost my first bar at 9,245 mi 61.68 AHr SOH 77% Hx 75.83
That sounds like another data point that points towards Nissan using a lower SoC before a bar is lost.

As for the other data, all I can is say is "ouch," but to clarify : your posted readings are from the time the bar was lost, right ?

Yes, all bars visible the day before and it was on and off for a few days but now always off.
 
My 2016, bought new 10 months ago, <10K miles just dropped a bar down to 11 bars. My offlease 2013 took 3 years and 30K miles to drop the first bar. Depressing.
 
victorjsmith said:
My 2016, bought new 10 months ago, <10K miles just dropped a bar down to 11 bars. My offlease 2013 took 3 years and 30K miles to drop the first bar. Depressing.
Yes, truly depressing.

So now your 30 kWh battery is like a new 24 kWh battery. Judging from other reports though, further degradation will be at a higher rate than the older 24 kWh technology. I suppose the only silver lining might be an increased likelihood of battery replacement under warranty.
 
My 2016, purchased in Dec 2015, 30 kWh just lost it's 4th bar today at 29,800 miles in Phoenix. I took it to the dealer, they inspected it and are ordering a new battery. At this rate, I'll get a couple new batteries under warranty. I am looking forward to having more range again. I have been down to 60-70 miles for a full charge the last couple weeks.
 
bakermel1 said:
My 2016, purchased in Dec 2015, 30 kWh just lost it's 4th bar today at 29,800 miles in Phoenix. I took it to the dealer, they inspected it and are ordering a new battery. At this rate, I'll get a couple new batteries under warranty. I am looking forward to having more range again. I have been down to 60-70 miles for a full charge the last couple weeks.

do you have leafspy data for when the bars dropped?
 
bakermel1 said:
My 2016, purchased in Dec 2015, 30 kWh just lost it's 4th bar today at 29,800 miles in Phoenix. I took it to the dealer, they inspected it and are ordering a new battery. At this rate, I'll get a couple new batteries under warranty. I am looking forward to having more range again. I have been down to 60-70 miles for a full charge the last couple weeks.

quite curious as to what LEAF Spy readings are. Any chance you could hook up with someone who has it? It would take less than 30 seconds to get a read on your car.


It seems the 4th bar represents more than the 63ish % the 24 kwh packs were at
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
It seems the 4th bar represents more than the 63ish % the 24 kwh packs were at
I keep wondering about that too. It is awful tempting to guess the warranty threshold kicks in at ~ 15 kWh for either car.


@bakermel1, what was your typical range when the battery was new ?
 
I don't have leaf spy to hook up. I'll get it and check. My range was 110-100 miles per charge and now down to 60-70 miles with 4 bars gone. I charge to 100% most days.
 
bakermel1 said:
I don't have leaf spy to hook up. I'll get it and check. My range was 110-100 miles per charge and now down to 60-70 miles with 4 bars gone. I charge to 100% most days.
Thanks.

At face value that suggests the threshold percentage for warranty replacement of the battery is the same as the 24 kWh Models. I'm looking forward to LeafSpy data too!
 
2016 SV , 30 kWh, 18,000 miles. First capacity bar loss occurred today. Daily driver with 72 total mile commute. Level 2 charging overnight to 100%. I live in Southwest Missouri where our August has been unseasonably cool. Of the 72 miles, approximately 40 is 70 mph interstate highway driving.
 
DCinMO said:
2016 SV , 30 kWh, 18,000 miles. First capacity bar loss occurred today. Daily driver with 72 total mile commute. Level 2 charging overnight to 100%. I live in Southwest Missouri where our August has been unseasonably cool. Of the 72 miles, approximately 40 is 70 mph interstate highway driving.

wow! that is quick! What is your build date? (as if I had to ask...)
 
DCinMO said:
2016 SV , 30 kWh, 18,000 miles. First capacity bar loss occurred today. Daily driver with 72 total mile commute. Level 2 charging overnight to 100%. I live in Southwest Missouri where our August has been unseasonably cool. Of the 72 miles, approximately 40 is 70 mph interstate highway driving.

I am guessing you are close to if not past low battery warning by the time you get back home?
 
bakermel1 said:
I don't have leaf spy to hook up. I'll get it and check. My range was 110-100 miles per charge and now down to 60-70 miles with 4 bars gone. I charge to 100% most days.
Any updates?. There are some other Leafers in the Phoenix area who have Leaf Spy and could get readings for us.

Also, would be curious to know he part # on your invoice, once the works's done. And, would also be curious to know how many (if any) replacements the dealer service dept has done on 30 kWh '16 and '17 Leafs. I suspect none for the latter, yet.
 
We don't have leaf spy so can't contribute data here but am curious as well on how build date affects this. Our 2016 SV is build date April 2016. We live in a milder climate but do hit 38 C in the summer. Lets say 100. We operate in the 7 bar range for a couple months of the year and have seen 8 bars occasionally after multiple fast charges on longer trips. We have noticed little Max range change on either the GOM or real world. Would you speculate this is a result of climate or build date. Probably a third less mileage on our car compared to the other leaf owner. Is there any evidence that they started to build the new 30K packs different after a certain date??
 
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