2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

webeleafowners said:

We don't have leaf spy so can't contribute data here but am curious as well on how build date affects this. Our 2016 SV is build date April 2016. We live in a milder climate but do hit 38 C in the summer. Lets say 100. We operate in the 7 bar range for a couple months of the year and have seen 8 bars occasionally after multiple fast charges on longer trips. We have noticed little Max range change on either the GOM or real world. Would you speculate this is a result of climate or build date. Probably a third less mileage on our car compared to the other leaf owner. Is there any evidence that they started to build the new 30K packs different after a certain date??

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In reality I am too. But when all these reports of early degradation started surfacing the pattern was instantly recognizable to me.

What we should have been seeing is incremental improvements in pack performance from day one. We have but with two glaring hiccups.

#1 early 2013 builds coinciding with opening of Symrna TN battery plant. Later 2013 builds up thru 2015 the steady improvement continues.

#2 2015 builds of 30 kwh packs introducing various changes including electrode content. Later 30 kwh builds seem to be doing much better. On this; there is a case that "can be" made that the later 2016 packs are simply not old enough yet. I dispute that. We have 2015 30 kwh packs that starting showing up 8-10% degradation via LEAF Spy readings in just a few months including LEAFs in Oregon. Now parts of Oregon can get pretty hot but its not Phoenix, Las Vegas or San Bernardino County no matter how you slice it.

In both cases, a major process change was involved. In both cases (so far) a sudden and significant improvement followed immediately afterwards. I guess we should hold off on this convo until the later 30 kwh packs have more miles and months under them. As far as evidence of any process change to correct the issues? Not sure why anyone would expect Nissan to come forward with that information.

QC issues are fairly common in any highly complicated build like cars and its by and large industry policy to not divulge these types of things to the public when there is no requirement for them to do so.

Anyone here buy a 2013 Ford Escape? You know, the year of the big refresh? If you did, you know what I am talking about. If you didn't, DON"T!

I haven't followed this thread closely. Are there 2017 packs dropping bars? If so, that would refute the incremental improvement argument. If not, maybe I should be looking for a closeout 2017 Leaf with Premium...

LeftieBiker said:

I haven't followed this thread closely. Are there 2017 packs dropping bars? If so, that would refute the incremental improvement argument. If not, maybe I should be looking for a closeout 2017 Leaf with Premium...

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none yet. The real bad ones are all 2015 builds so approaching 2 years old

LeftieBiker said:

I haven't followed this thread closely. Are there 2017 packs dropping bars? If so, that would refute the incremental improvement argument. If not, maybe I should be looking for a closeout 2017 Leaf with Premium...

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Most of the 2017 models don't have nearly enough charge cycles on them to show any real degradation. You would need to wait another year to be able to make any reasonable guess for durability. The fact is that it took a couple of years to spot any trend on the 2011, 2012, or 2013 models and a couple of more years to verify that the "lizard" battery was an improvement.

It took Nissan 5 years and a lawsuit to admit that there even was a problem. Nissan certainly had more data than we did on battery conditions and failure rates but they stalled for as long as possible before admitting there was any problem. It would appear that Nissan knew that there might be a problem with the 30KWH battery. Otherwise why change the loss points for the battery condition bars. Can't be a simple error of not changing the values from the 24KWH since the first bar drops while the battery is still over 24KWH capacity. Bar drop is not linear either which is what the warrantee implies but carefully doesn't state. I think the Nissan knew that there was a problem and masked it with a bandaid. Since most of the cars are leased and therefore only driven 10,000 miles a year or even less, as long as the first bar doesn't drop until the lease is nearly up everyone is happy. The used car salesman says "what can I tell you, they all do that and after all it is used!". I think that there was a corporate decision to roll out the 30KWH and deal with the battery problem as a warrantee issue. Since it appears to be climate related, Nissan may have decided that a limited number of cars would be affected and to absorb the losses rather than lose time to market to fix it.

johnlocke said:

It took Nissan 5 years and a lawsuit to admit that there even was a problem. Nissan certainly had more data than we did on battery conditions and failure rates but they stalled for as long as possible before admitting there was any problem. It would appear that Nissan knew that there might be a problem with the 30KWH battery.

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One correction - it took Nissan 2 years to respond. I know, because they replaced my 2011 battery in 2013.

To echo earlier comments, the 2017 model year Leafs are too new for us to determine whether their batteries are better, the same or worse than the '16 30 kWh cars. There simply hasn't been enough calendar loss and exposure to summer heat. We will see in a year, or less.

jhm614 said:

johnlocke said:

It took Nissan 5 years and a lawsuit to admit that there even was a problem. Nissan certainly had more data than we did on battery conditions and failure rates but they stalled for as long as possible before admitting there was any problem. It would appear that Nissan knew that there might be a problem with the 30KWH battery.

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One correction - it took Nissan 2 years to respond. I know, because they replaced my 2011 battery in 2013.

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Yep. That's about right.

Capacity warranty was announced June 7, 2013: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192. First Leaf deliveries occurred in Dec 2010.

Phoenix range test results were announced Sept 18, 2012. Certainly that didn't mark the beginning of capacity loss as car Blue494 was already down 4 bars by the time of the test.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694 has more key events. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=196216#p196216 was the monster thread.

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

Berc

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

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241 gids on a full charge? Out of curiosity, what are the AHr and Hx values?

johnlocke said:

LeftieBiker said:

I haven't followed this thread closely. Are there 2017 packs dropping bars? If so, that would refute the incremental improvement argument. If not, maybe I should be looking for a closeout 2017 Leaf with Premium...

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Most of the 2017 models don't have nearly enough charge cycles on them to show any real degradation. You would need to wait another year to be able to make any reasonable guess for durability. The fact is that it took a couple of years to spot any trend on the 2011, 2012, or 2013 models and a couple of more years to verify that the "lizard" battery was an improvement.

It took Nissan 5 years and a lawsuit to admit that there even was a problem. Nissan certainly had more data than we did on battery conditions and failure rates but they stalled for as long as possible before admitting there was any problem. It would appear that Nissan knew that there might be a problem with the 30KWH battery. Otherwise why change the loss points for the battery condition bars. Can't be a simple error of not changing the values from the 24KWH since the first bar drops while the battery is still over 24KWH capacity. Bar drop is not linear either which is what the warrantee implies but carefully doesn't state. I think the Nissan knew that there was a problem and masked it with a bandaid. Since most of the cars are leased and therefore only driven 10,000 miles a year or even less, as long as the first bar doesn't drop until the lease is nearly up everyone is happy. The used car salesman says "what can I tell you, they all do that and after all it is used!". I think that there was a corporate decision to roll out the 30KWH and deal with the battery problem as a warrantee issue. Since it appears to be climate related, Nissan may have decided that a limited number of cars would be affected and to absorb the losses rather than lose time to market to fix it.

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Yep

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

Berc

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This is another data point supporting the notion that Nissan has played loose with the capacity bar trigger levels. First bar almost for sure; we'll have to see about bars 2 - 4. Will people be surprised if it turns out that the Ahr threshold for warranty replacement is about the same as the 24 kWh models ? I know I won't.

I admit to a perverse anticipation in waiting for Ed and Dave to come and try to explain away this case.

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

Berc

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Build date?
Delivery date?

cwerdna said:

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

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241 gids on a full charge? Out of curiosity, what are the AHr and Hx values?

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AHr = 52.68 Hx = 66.84

DaveinOlyWA said:

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

Berc

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Build date?
Delivery date?

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Build date: 04/16
Delivery date: 09/16

berclese said:

cwerdna said:

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

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241 gids on a full charge? Out of curiosity, what are the AHr and Hx values?

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AHr = 52.68 Hx = 66.84

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And only one bar down, when it should be 3-4 bars and near eligible for replacement.

This just speaks to Nissan shenanigans with the capacity bar thresholds that are nasty even in the context of past behavior.

Man, you don't even know anything about this guy's situation, and immediately you are bashing Nissan. why don't you just tell the guy to have it checked at the dealer... Do you have an ax to grind with Nissan??

berclese said:

I too have a 2016 SV (30kWh batt) with 5700 miles and lost the 12th bar last month. Of course, I'm in Arizona and I do charge to 100% in my garage at 6.6, level 2. My GOM range was 110 mi at delivery. Now Leaf Spy says 74.6 mi range. I might be seeing Nissan sooner than later at this rate. Other data: 241 GIDs, SOH= 66%. I cant believe its deteriorated this quickly.

Build date: 04/16
Delivery date: 09/16

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So you're about due for the battery checkup. Will you keep us informed on how it goes?

I guess I'm lucky to have not experienced your level of degradation, but am really worried about what values the battery bars correspond to?! That warranty of 4 bars in 8y/100k miles might be worthless for me if 60% SOH doesn't trigger a 4th bar loss!

jhm614 said:

johnlocke said:

It took Nissan 5 years and a lawsuit to admit that there even was a problem. Nissan certainly had more data than we did on battery conditions and failure rates but they stalled for as long as possible before admitting there was any problem. It would appear that Nissan knew that there might be a problem with the 30KWH battery.

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One correction - it took Nissan 2 years to respond. I know, because they replaced my 2011 battery in 2013.

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Lawsuit didn't get settled until 2015. Nissan was responding to failures on a case by case basis before that and you were at the mercy of nissan's "Good Will" policy. Some people got their battery replaced without any problem but others had to go to arbitration or the BBB for satisfaction. Go back and read the posts from then.

johnlocke said:

Lawsuit didn't get settled until 2015. Nissan was responding to failures on a case by case basis before that and you were at the mercy of nissan's "Good Will" policy. Some people got their battery replaced without any problem but others had to go to arbitration or the BBB for satisfaction. Go back and read the posts from then.

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Nissan sent all 2011 and 2012 owners a revised warranty via US snail mail in the summer of 2013. That is what launched the 5 year / 60,000-mile warranty. As far as I know, no one was refused replacement if you met the terms of the warranty. The 'good will' policy didn't kick in until the warranty expired for the 2011 owners (and for the 2012 owners whose warranties are expiring this year).

In general, I'm not disagreeing with you but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Nissan stepped up with warranty way before the lawsuit was settled and they honored the terms of that warranty way before the lawsuit was settled. And since the warranty has expired, they have extended good will to folks. Now, I think we all agree that we'd rather see a prorated out of warranty policy that applied to everyone equally but it's not like Nissan sat on their hands until that suit was settled and it's not like owners had to depend on good will if you lost 4 bars before 2016.

I'm not saying that Nissan did it out of the goodness of their heart. If it hadn't been for Tony Williams and the AZ owners, Nissan might not have done anything. But Nissan did respond - the Warranty, getting EVChels involved, the LAB - lots of another giant, foreign companies would not have done that before the lawsuit was settled.

I have a new 2017 Leaf S delivered 7/27/2017; [edit: added build date, 04/2017 ]
The battery numbers from Leafspy seem to be dropping significantly/quickly!?
Arizona. So it's hot here obviously. Also something that hadn't really occured to me until afterward, but it's parked in the garage which stays maybe no cooler than 90 degrees all summer.
The battery temp bars stays at 7 almost all the time; it goes to 8 once in awhile, and it dropped to 6 once when it was rainy/cloudy for a day...

Here's what leafspy said/says:

IF you can find a way to keep the pack cooler, that pack will last longer. I realize it may not be possible.