2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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berclese said:
UPDATE: I lost the second bar today. 237 GIDs AHr= 51.85 SOH= 65% HX= 65.88% 5899 miles.

Wow. Does your state have a lemon law ?

Can you confirm that your range is taking a similar dive ?

This test would be helpful:
Start the test with a SoC of 80% to 100%
Reset your trip meter
Note your odometer

Note your odometer and SoC when SoC drops to around 20%
Note your trip meter miles/kWh reading
 
I have been keeping track of first bar losses here and Facebook and the range is between 77 and 83% SOH. I lost 1 bar at 61.68 Ah 77%. I am now at 58.54 73% and expecting second bar loss any day now. The only data points for 2nd bar are 61.57 and 52.31 77 and 65%.
 
jbuntz said:
I have been keeping track of first bar losses here and Facebook and the range is between 77 and 83% SOH. I lost 1 bar at 61.68 Ah 77%. I am now at 58.54 73% and expecting second bar loss any day now. The only data points for 2nd bar are 61.57 and 52.31 77 and 65%.
This will be interesting, thanks for keeping track.

A 24 kWh LEAF loses its second bar at around 52 Ahrs. Do not be too surprised if a drop to a similar Ahr is also needed for your 30 kWh car.
 
It's scary, although we've only seen a few people's reports, but it seems that the 30kWh battery packs are as bad as the original 24kWh packs.
 
hmmwv said:
It's scary, although we've only seen a few people's reports, but it seems that the 30kWh battery packs are as bad as the original 24kWh packs.
Maybe they really are the same 24 kWh packs, but they hid the extra 6 kWh so people didn't see the degradation in the 2013-2016 model years. :eek:
 
SageBrush said:
A 24 kWh LEAF loses its second bar at around 52 Ahrs. Do not be too surprised if a drop to a similar Ahr is also needed for your 30 kWh car.

How did you determine this? Guessing not allowed. Source please!
 
Reddy said:
hmmwv said:
It's scary, although we've only seen a few people's reports, but it seems that the 30kWh battery packs are as bad as the original 24kWh packs.
Maybe they really are the same 24 kWh packs, but they hid the extra 6 kWh so people didn't see the degradation in the 2013-2016 model years. :eek:

You are joking, right!
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
A 24 kWh LEAF loses its second bar at around 52 Ahrs. Do not be too surprised if a drop to a similar Ahr is also needed for your 30 kWh car.

How did you determine this? Guessing not allowed. Source please!
Is ~ 52 Ahrs for loss of second bar in a 24 kWh model controversial ?
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
A 24 kWh LEAF loses its second bar at around 52 Ahrs. Do not be too surprised if a drop to a similar Ahr is also needed for your 30 kWh car.

How did you determine this? Guessing not allowed. Source please!
Is ~ 52 Ahrs for loss of second bar in a 24 kWh model controversial ?

How do you explain my 24kWh Leaf at 54k, 12 bars, 51 Ahrs? Maybe an outlier, or your statement is erroneous.
Surely you've gathered sufficient data to support that statement, right? If so, please provide it. That data
should provide; temp range exposed to, number of charges, extent of battery discharges between charges,
age, miles driven, times left at full charge, average battery temp while driving. Surely you have access to
such comprehensive data, given that you rarely if ever make erroneous absolute statements without prior
exhaustive research. Based on your longitudinal analysis of that data, e.g. using linear regression, the correlation
coefficient between 51 Ahrs and the loss of the "second bar" approaches .99, right?

Bottom line: Surely we don't want to bias new Leaf owners with more hyperbole as has been posted recently.
 
If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack, albeit with far fewer of the test parameters and variables known, and with only a single (?) "30 kWh" pack having been tested by a high-integrity source.

The EPA test of a 2016 "30 kWh" LEAF (strangely...) shows the same 31.7807 kWh from a 240 volt EVSE required to recharge after both the city (UDDS) and highway cycle tests.

This could correspond to a ~30 kWh (total) pack, that is ~90% accessible, and recharges at ~85% average efficiency over the entire accessible capacity.

Monitor the kWh your pack accepts (and/or the charge time, and voltage) after similar depletion from fully-charged (240 V) pack, after a similar single-event full (to stop) discharge.

Results should be expected to vary a great deal with pack and ambient temperatures, which I don't know for the EPA tests (?)

I'd guess the EPA might test near the 70F to 80F range?

Anyone know?

In "24 kWh" LEAF pack tests, there is significant variation in charge accepted even for the same pack, in identical tests.

This is evidently due to the LBCs inaccuracy in determining the upper and lower charge limits.

You should expect the same in the larger packs, so do not expect a single test to be determinative.

Remember, you are not able to test total pack capacity, only the capacity your LEAF's LBC allowed you to access during the given charge/discharge cycle.

Repeat, to get a larger sample, and also to determine the accuracy or (inaccuracy) of your LBC in determining its upper and lower pack limits.


Certification Summary Information Report

Model Year 2016...

Test Date 03/11/2015

Test Procedure 81 - Charge Depleting UDDS

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Total distance (mile):166.410...

Test Procedure 84 - Charge Depleting Highway...

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 136.408...

Charge Time[sec]:20733...

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=36671&flag=1

2017 MY certification appears to use the same test results:

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=38806&flag=1
 
edatoakrun said:
If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack, albeit with far fewer of the test parameters and variables known, and with only a single (?) "30 kWh" pack having been tested by a high-integrity source.

The EPA test of a 2016 "30 kWh" LEAF (strangely...) shows the same 31.7807 kWh from a 240 volt EVSE required to recharge after both the city (UDDS) and highway cycle tests.

This could correspond to a ~30 kWh (total) pack, that is ~90% accessible, and recharges at ~85% average efficiency over the entire accessible capacity.

Monitor the kWh your pack accepts (and/or the charge time, and voltage) after similar depletion from fully-charged (240 V) pack, after a similar single-event full (to stop) discharge.

Results should be expected to vary a great deal with pack and ambient temperatures, which I don't know for the EPA tests (?)

I'd guess the EPA might test near the 70F to 80F range?

Anyone know?

In "24 kWh" LEAF pack tests, there is significant variation in charge accepted even for the same pack, in identical tests.

This is evidently due to the LBCs inaccuracy in determining the upper and lower charge limits.

You should expect the same in the larger packs, so do not expect a single test to be determinative.

Remember, you are not able to test total pack capacity, only the capacity your LEAF's LBC allowed you to access during the given charge/discharge cycle.

Repeat, to get a larger sample, and also to determine the accuracy or (inaccuracy) of your LBC in determining its upper and lower pack limits.


Certification Summary Information Report

Model Year 2016...

Test Date 03/11/2015

Test Procedure 81 - Charge Depleting UDDS

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Total distance (mile):166.410...

Test Procedure 84 - Charge Depleting Highway...

Recharge Event Voltage 240...

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807...

Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 136.408...

Charge Time[sec]:20733...

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=36671&flag=1

2017 MY certification appears to use the same test results:

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=38806&flag=1

Or simply monitor the Ahrs delta over time, i.e. it's not that difficult!
 
lorenfb said:
edatoakrun said:
If you want to find actual capacity loss on a "30 kWh" LEAF, I'd suggest you test your pack the same way you would for a "24 kWh" pack...
Or simply monitor the Ahrs delta over time, i.e. it's not that difficult!
Prior posts on this thread strongly suggest the futility of relying on the LBC reports for accurate data on pack capacity for "30 kWh" packs, just as six years of threads on LBC reports on "24 kWh" pack capacity loss have done for earlier LEAF packs.

The simple-minded approach to answering a question is not necessarily the best...
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
How did you determine this? Guessing not allowed. Source please!
Is ~ 52 Ahrs for loss of second bar in a 24 kWh model controversial ?

How do you explain my 24kWh Leaf at 54k, 12 bars, 51 Ahrs? Maybe an outlier, or your statement is erroneous.
Surely you've gathered sufficient data to support that statement, right? If so, please provide it. That data
should provide; temp range exposed to, number of charges, extent of battery discharges between charges,
age, miles driven, times left at full charge, average battery temp while driving. Surely you have access to
such comprehensive data, given that you rarely if ever make erroneous absolute statements without prior
exhaustive research. Based on your longitudinal analysis of that data, e.g. using linear regression, the correlation
coefficient between 51 Ahrs and the loss of the "second bar" approaches .99, right?

Bottom line: Surely we don't want to bias new Leaf owners with more hyperbole as has been posted recently.

That is pretty odd. Your 51 Ahr is ~78% of 65 Ahr (the new Ahr rating of a 24kwh battery). You should already be at 1 bar, if not 2 bars lost. You can compare your Ahr rating against the database of other leaf owners and what bars lost they are: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss

Note there are a few typo's in the listings, so if you correct for a single-digit typo, you'll find it's pretty consistent that 77-78% SOH is where the 2nd bar is lost.

So I don't see how you could possibly still have 12 bars of battery life remaining?
 
So for those of us that don't have the leaf spy facility but do have a juice box and it's monitoring software. Let's say a leaf at 10 percent (never had it lower) and charge all the way to full. What should I expect to see for total capacity?

Thanks in advance.

John.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
So I don't see how you could possibly still have 12 bars of battery life remaining?

You question my data? Check with Dave (DaveinOlyWA - has one of the highest post counts).
His '13 had about the same mileage with even a higher Ahr reading when it was returned
AND 12 bars.

You been reading too many of the negative Leaf posts! Try avoid reading many of @SageBrush's posts.
Remember, battery degradation is a function of many variables, e.g. how the battery is used/charged.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
@ lorenfb, If you don't mind, could you take a pic of your dash console and a screenshot of your leafspy screen showing SOH?

My Leaf's SOH is 75%. You know the correlation factor between Ahrs & SOH, right?
 
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