Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

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Valdemar said:
Do you know if any 2013+ 24kWh battery can be installed in a 11/12 Leaf with a dealer reprogramming (with the necessary adapters) or only the ones that were originally fitted into 11/12 cars as warranty replacements? Which was it in your case?
Ah, good question.
Till date I have only installed a complete battery that was made for a 2011/2012 into those Leafs, even when manufactured in 2017, the batteries for old style Leafs have a different control connector and also still appear to have 4 physical temp sensors, whereas newer Leafs only have (and expect) 3 temp sensors. So, even though it would be trivial to simulate the 4th temp sensor in software, the new battery pack for old Leafs is still equipped with the correct nrof temp sensors.
I heard from others (have not tested it myself) that if the temp sensors are not present, the BMS will not balance the pack, so I made sure
to install the temp sensors.
BTW, I checked the new BMS (with colored connectors) and no matter if it its intended for new or old pack, it still has all 4 temp sensor inputs present, apparently the change for new packs is simply not to wire the 4th sensor and the software to ignore the missing reading, but the software for the new BMS that goes into the old Leaf is expecting 4 temp sensors.
So, I am expecting that you can't take a new pack intended for a new Leaf and mount it in an old one, even if you found a way to hack up the control cable to fit into the new socket from the old style plug on the old Leaf, the missing temp sensor is likely going to upset the Leaf, although I have no tried it, it might work but throw error code(s). Just like I was successful in letting the dealer program a 4-button FOB for my 2012 even though the car expects a 3-button one. But I have a permanent error code stored about this "incompatible" remote. I just had only this remote handy and I like to have 2 keys to every car I own (I bought a blank physical key and had it cut, so it is complete)
The safest way to use a 2013+ battery in a 2011/12 Leaf is to swap modules.
BTW, if you think of changing the control connector on a battery, please note that the connector can only be installed from *inside* the battery, even though you can unbolt the alu flange that the connector is installed into, from the outside of the shell, the high voltage pins from the power connector and the "connector inserted" detection cable cannot be disconnected from outside the shell. And the shell is glued shut.
I still want to get my hands on a 30kWh battery and verify that modules from that battery can swap into an older Leaf, I see no reason why that would not work, but have not verified it yet.
 
Thanks, that's what I suspected. 2013+ batteries made for 11/12 cars are probably hard to find but should provide for a real easy swap (hopefully wreckers don't find this out and price them at a premium, hehe).
 
Cor said:
The safest way to use a 2013+ battery in a 2011/12 Leaf is to swap modules.
How many of these swaps have you done now? How much does a used 2013+ pack cost these days? I suspect the biggest issue is trying to figure out how much capacity a used pack has - what do you do to account for that?

Thanks for all the info - it's very interesting!
 
drees said:
How many of these swaps have you done now? How much does a used 2013+ pack cost these days? I suspect the biggest issue is trying to figure out how much capacity a used pack has - what do you do to account for that?
Hi Drees,
When I receive a pack, I used LeafSpy to read the info from the BMS (LBC) about capacity and health of the pack.
If the pack is still in the car then it is simple - just plug the dongle into the OBD2 connector.
When testing a pack by itself, I use clip on leads or header plugs to connect CAN and 12V to pack and ELM327 so
I can use LeafSpy in BMS only mode to read the data from the LBC.
Prices are still going up, due to demand, so now a 2013 pack can cost $2900 before taxes.
And you need to arrange a truck to pick up the 600 lbs battery at the dismantler, or do what I did on my first pickup
now over a year ago, I tore the battery apart in the parking lot of the dismantler, as I came with my Prius.
They were cool about that but not every dismantler appreciates that.
I have now worked on over a dozen batteries.
 
Got a call today from the dismantler that a few more packs are available, so if anyone is interested...
 
Hi Cor, that's really interesting to hear that your Nissan dealer will do the coding now. That makes battery changes much safer as well as easier. You said that the owner needs to be present but other than that are the dealers cool about it or do you have one "tame" outlet that you go to?

Like you I'm on the hunt for a 30kWh pack to try in my 2011 but I've been distracted by fighting Tesla for panelshop info to be able to repair a salvage Model S that I gambled on. They are not especially easy to deal with...
 
very interested in the results you get if you find a 30kwh battery to swap into a worn out leaf. Good luck and hope it is a relatively painless process!

Marko
 
estomax said:
very interested in the results you get if you find a 30kwh battery to swap into a worn out leaf. Good luck and hope it is a relatively painless process!
My understanding is that it would be a relatively futile process. Nissan has said that the electronics of the 24kwh vehicles are not compatible with the 30kwh battery. (I realize Cor has suggested he may know how to do so, but there is plenty of incentive to do that with no reports of success)
 
Dooglas said:
I realize Cor has suggested he may know how to do so, but there is plenty of incentive to do that with no reports of success

I believe the incentive to do a swap to a 40kWh will overcome all obstacles.

I might be simpler to let the 2011/2012 BMS control a "fake battery" and have the 40kWh with is own BMS. I just took a look at the schematic and the 2011/2012 BMS could be tricked to believe it has a battery using 96 resistors, a controlled voltage 300 to 400 VDC low power source and low voltage 0-200 A current source. Keep the temp sensors on the real battery if the temperature profiles match.

A smart/fast device controlling the voltage and current seen by the 2011/20112 BMS could interface with the 40kWh BMS. I will have to give it some more thought, but it might be easier than to hack the BMS.
 
Cor normally takes raw cells from for example a 30kwhr battery and reshells it into the old battery with the existing electronics.

So the car wouldn't know the difference and since the min max voltage on 30kw batteries is the same the car will just think it has lots of capacity past low battery
 
rmay635703 said:
Cor normally takes raw cells from for example a 30kwhr battery and reshells it into the old battery with the existing electronics.

So the car wouldn't know the difference and since the min max voltage on 30kw batteries is the same the car will just think it has lots of capacity past low battery

I say on an earlier post that the "electronics in the 30kWh are incompatible with 24kWh". Has this 30 to 24 transplant been done? Are L2 and quick charging working fine?
 
camasleaf said:
rmay635703 said:
Cor normally takes raw cells from for example a 30kwhr battery and reshells it into the old battery with the existing electronics.

So the car wouldn't know the difference and since the min max voltage on 30kw batteries is the same the car will just think it has lots of capacity past low battery

I say on an earlier post that the "electronics in the 30kWh are incompatible with 24kWh". Has this 30 to 24 transplant been done? Are L2 and quick charging working fine?

Swapping the cells from the new battery to the old shell gets around the compatibility issue by using the existing BMS and the existing wiring between the battery case and the vehicle. The BMS will learn the capacity of the new cells and adjust accordingly. Actually doing this will require an intact, undamaged 30kWh pack from a wrecked Leaf containing one. It may be a while before we see a report of it being done.
 
Thanks Cor for my successful module swap (2013 pack at 92% into a 2011 Leaf, replacing a 44% SOH pack). Ran it down to VLBW today since I wasn't too sure what the real state of charge was, and quick charged it up to 71% (per the readout on the CHAdeMO station, the car's BMS thought it was at 92.5% at end of charge), pack temps didn't exceed 79 F. Probably shouldn't have abused the new pack that much, but I'm sure it will hold up fine, cell voltage was still around 3.7 when I got to the QC with "---" on the GOM.

I'll keep you all updated on how long it takes for the battery gauge to figure out the new pack, still reads 5 bars at the moment.
 
baustin said:
Swapping the cells from the new battery to the old shell gets around the compatibility issue by using the existing BMS and the existing wiring between the battery case and the vehicle. The BMS will learn the capacity of the new cells and adjust accordingly. Actually doing this will require an intact, undamaged 30kWh pack from a wrecked Leaf containing one. It may be a while before we see a report of it being done.

Since the 24 and 30 kWh discharge curves are different, I not sure that the LBC "will learn the capacity of the new cells and adjust accordingly".

If anyone has PROOF, that would be awesome!
 
estomax said:
are the 30 kwh battery cells the same dimension as the 24 kwh? just more dense? interesting.

Dimensionally, 1x 30 kWh module equals 2x 24 kWh modules

1250whlr.jpg
 
RNM said:
estomax said:
are the 30 kwh battery cells the same dimension as the 24 kwh? just more dense? interesting.

Dimensionally, 1x 30 kWh module equals 2x 24 kWh modules

1250whlr.jpg

how many wh are the 24 kwh modules? 500wh then to make the attached photo you put make sense? and are the 24 kwh modules always double stacked so the 30 would drop in place of them in most cases?

cheers
Marko
 
estomax said:
how many wh are the 24 kwh modules? 500wh then to make the attached photo you put make sense? and are the 24 kwh modules always double stacked so the 30 would drop in place of them in most cases?
Hi Marko,
Yes, the 24kWh modules actually have the text 500Wh printed on them and yes, they are always stacked in even numbers,
that is why the 30kWh pack could combine two of them to increase usable volume and eliminate space that the enclosure uses.
The 24kWh pack has two front stacks of 12 modules each and one rear stack of 24 modules.
Both front stacks have the modules laying flat with terminals pointing to the center line of the pack (and car), from front to back its height is 4 modules, 4 modules, 2 modules and 2 modules. The 4-high is below the front seat, the 2-high is under the rear footwell.
The rear stack is a single row of 24 modules stacked all on top of each other laying sideways with the terminals pointing forward.
As far as I can judge, the 30kWh pack modules were designed to replace the old modules in pairs.
JKenny23 has shot a timelapse of the pack refurbishment last weekend, I will let him do the honors of posting his video.
This may clarify a lot of questions about the layout of the pack. Note that this refurbishment is putting newer 24kWh modules into a 2011.
But I see no reason why modules from a 30kWh pack should be a problem,
other than getting your hands on those modules.
 
Cor said:
But I see no reason why modules from a 30kWh pack should be a problem,
other than getting your hands on those modules.
Different discharge curve is a potential problem.
If the LBC doesn't adjust to that it's very good.
 
RNM said:
Different discharge curve is a potential problem.
If the LBC doesn't adjust to that it's very good.
I think you meant to say that if the LBC *does* adjust (to the larger capacity) then that is good.
As far as I know, the 30kWh pack is the same chemistry as the 24 kWh version, so I do not expect a radical different discharge profile,
just larger capacity and the LBC *has to* adjust capacity, because it needs to be able to follow the degradation of the pack, adjusting for ever smaller capacity and I have seen in the Leafs that received a new battery pack without changing the LBC, that in a matter of weeks the capacity estimation grew to (close to) the capacity of the new installed pack and based on that, the Guess-o-Meter also increased the estimated range.
So, installing a 30kWh pack into an old Leaf will simply cause the LBC to adjust its capacity even higher, presuming that there is no artificial limit in the Software of the LBC that would prevent it from going higher than (say) 67 Ah and it can adjust up to 80 Ah capacity.
 
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