Will ICE efficiency breakthroughs hamper EV adoption?

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LTLFTcomposite

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https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/with-new-technology-mazda-gives-spark-to-gasoline-engine.html

30% efficiency improvement, less demand for gas, lower gas prices, repeat viscous cycle.
 
Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
 
ICEVs still cannot be refueled at home using fuel entirely produced at home. Even "homemade" biofuel requires a source of oil.
 
Hamper? Maybe. Stop? No way.

EV's offer far more than lower operating cost. In fact, they are simply better for everything short of a long trip. I would argue that overall, they are better than ICEVs.
 
abasile said:
Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
That is the car, not the motor per se.

If you take an ICE car and give it a Cd of 0.24 it will also have impressive MPG. E.g., the Prius Prime
 
LeftieBiker said:
as much as 30 percent fuel efficiency over its Skyactiv-G engine
Exactly. When talking about ICE, one must be careful to distinguish peak efficiency, average efficiency, or efficiency at an arbitrary power band. Mazda picked an arbitrary power band that showcases the tech advance but that says very, very little about overall efficiency improvement.

About the best an ICE can ever hope to theoretically reach is current Toyota hybrid levels of about 55 mpg over a complete drive cycle. Getting there without a supplemental battery to flatten out the power curve and not be under-powered would be quite a feat* but that is the limit. At current fuel prices a car like that costs about 4 cents a mile. My LEAF, fueled by my home PV, costs 0.5 cents a mile.

Regarding the new Mazda engine, it sounds like they are trying to get rid of the air throttle and its attendant 'partial power' losses every petrol ICE so far developed suffers from. In effect, they are 'diesel-izing' the engine. That is fine, but the problem to date has been huge increases in Nox and particulates ... and then having to spend tech and money on emission control. The VW diesel story informs the Mazda story: look for the emissions profile and emissions controls it requires. If it is anything comparable to diesel, it will fail.

*It has been talked about. Presumably a turbo, along with variable displacement that does away with the throttle plate, could get there.
 
SageBrush said:
abasile said:
Keep in mind that EV drivetrains and batteries have been getting more efficient as well. I believe our 2011 LEAF is rated at 99 MPGe. The Tesla Model 3 gets something like 126 MPGe, and the Hyundai Ioniq EV gets 136 MPGe.
That is the car, not the motor per se.

If you take an ICE car and give it a Cd of 0.24 it will also have impressive MPG. E.g., the Prius Prime
You are certainly correct that the vehicles I mentioned are more aerodynamic than the 2011-2017 LEAF. I believe the Ioniq also has a Cd of 0.24.

However, we've also seen significant efficiency improvements apart from aerodynamics. It appears that the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course. Still, there remains room for improvement.

The bottom line is that Mazda's leadership is wrong to suggest that it's enough for now to improve the ICE. Okay, so with a 30% improvement in fuel efficiency across the board, we'll only be warming the planet 70% as quickly. That certainly helps, and the world doesn't yet have the battery production capacity for every new car to be an EV, but legacy companies like Mazda have been dragging their feet on EVs, pure and simple.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
Hamper? Maybe. Stop? No way.

EV's offer far more than lower operating cost. In fact, they are simply better for everything short of a long trip. I would argue that overall, they are better than ICEVs.

Although SageBush has the technical details right about Mazda's claims, the above is why EV adoption will not be hampered (other than price of the vehicle).
 
WetEV said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
repeat viscous cycle.

Dictionary said:
adjective: viscous

having a thick, sticky consistency between solid and liquid; having a high viscosity.
"viscous lava""

Somehow I doubt if that is what you mean.

I'm pretty sure most people understand he meant "vicious".

Merriam-Webster said:
vicious cycle (noun)

a repeating situation or condition in which one problem causes another problem that makes the first problem worse

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vicious cycle
 
abasile said:
... the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course...
I don't think so.

See my reply here:

Guess the Monroney contest: Tesla 3 and LEAF 2 efficiency ratings

Gen one LEAF efficiency rating peaked with the 2013 MY, at 115 MPGEe.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34699&id=33558&id=32154&id=30979

The more efficient charging system explanation for the MY 2013 MPGe increase...

...is conclusively debunked by EPA certification reports, which were unavailable ~five years ago...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=509359#p509359
 
While this higher efficiency engine technology from Mazda isn't in showrooms either, we shouldn't really talk about EVs as a fait accompli (I checked the spelling this time). There's some very nice but very expensive and somewhat problematic luxury cars available from Tesla, a more mainstream model they are trying to get into production, the Bolt, and a ragtag collection of short range grocery getters. The future definitely isn't here yet. :D

This is more likely competition for hybrids than EVs in the near term.
 
SageBrush said:
...When talking about ICE, one must be careful to distinguish peak efficiency, average efficiency, or efficiency at an arbitrary power band. Mazda picked an arbitrary power band that showcases the tech advance but that says very, very little about overall efficiency improvement. ...

This. Probably why the mention of using it to improve efficiency in hybrids -- the electric portion making up for the lack of general tractability of a "gasoline diesel". And so even if implemented would actually serve as a stepping-stone to full electric. Hybrids are the gateway drug to BEVs.
 
My rule of thumb for generic Americans is this:
20 mpg for $2 a gallon fuel
30 mpg for $3 a gallon fuel
40 mpg for $4 a gallon fuel

So long as fuel costs meet these constraints, the consumer prioritizes things like looks, convenience and power.
 
Ah the joys of lean burn.

Cost of ownership electricity VRS gas is likely more of a factor

States with...
High EV insurance, high EV registration, high electric prices don’t help
 
Nubo said:
Hybrids are the gateway drug to BEVs.
As a current and past owner of these intermediate electrified cars I would say that PHEV are gateway cars; hybrids act like normal ICE cars with improved fuel economy.

The earlier comment that the Mazda engine may be competition to hybrids sounds right to me. It will be interesting to follow, since Mazda has an excellent engineering reputation and they tend to live up to their marketing. EVs do appear to have a gathering momentum, at least in the developed countries and urban areas where pollution is a daily issue. That still leaves a lot of market to be exploited the world over. India, for example. Or perhaps in SUVs where EV is expensive.
 
As a current and past owner of these intermediate electrified cars I would say that PHEV are gateway cars; hybrids act like normal ICE cars with improved fuel economy.

I have to disagree, at least in the case of the Prius. In 2010 I persuaded my housemate to lease a Prius II, as a great lease was being offered. It was our first non-standard car, although I was into electric scooters and bicycles. What impressed her most was the quiet while stopped, and the gentle, quiet low speed ride. I really liked the electric drive. While many of us here now have PHEVs, I think that most of us hybrid to EV converts had standard hybrids first rather that PHEVs.
 
edatoakrun said:
abasile said:
... the 2017 LEAF is rated at 112 MPGe compared to 99 MPGe on the 2011 LEAF. That's only 13% better, but still significant. Much of that comes from having a more efficient charging system, of course...
I don't think so. ... See my reply here: ...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=509359#p509359
That's interesting, as it challenges one of my long-help assumptions. However, if it's true that the 2013+ gains actually had more to do with drivetrain improvements, etc., and less to do with charging, that doesn't change my overall point. That is, overall EV efficiency has improved and should continue to improve, so efficiency and fuel savings should continue to be good reasons to drive EVs even with uptrending ICE vehicle efficiency.

SageBrush said:
My rule of thumb for generic Americans is this:
20 mpg for $2 a gallon fuel
30 mpg for $3 a gallon fuel
40 mpg for $4 a gallon fuel

So long as fuel costs meet these constraints, the consumer prioritizes things like looks, convenience and power.
I agree that this is the bigger hurdle for EVs. Many drivers will stick with what they're used to, unless/until it brings them significant discomfort.

This is one reason that I am a fan of Tesla, their product delays and glitches notwithstanding. Beautiful and fast cars that happen to be EVs while enabling full ICE replacement. I'm pretty sure that LEAF sales have benefited significantly from Tesla's existence.
 
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