2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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SageBrush said:
arnis said:
SageBrush said:
I'm not sure I understand this comment, but I agree with the rest of your post.

We let the car battery drop to 30-40% SOC from use before we charge it back up to 80%. Charging is set to start at 5am and performed outside in the summer. This is the coolest time of day and about an hour or two before use. I thought about asking my wife to recharge when the SoC hits the 20-30% level but that provokes range anxiety.
Click to expand...

You charge up to 80% but do you discharge it within few hours down to 50%? If not, consider not charging up to 80%.
Start charging at 7am so that SOC is below 80% when trip starts. So it is near 50% mark soon after.
Click to expand...
The charge is set to finish at 6am, and the car is used between 6am and 9am. The end of charging battery temperature is 6 bars in the summer and 3-4 bars in the winter. Each trip knocks about 10% off the SoC

I call that babying the battery, but it could always be a bit better.
Click to expand...

you would be a perfect "80%" candidate. I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
Click to expand...

1. There's no comprehensive analysis that indicates that charging to 90% versus 100% reduces degradation long term, i.e. it's basically
anecdotal at this point. Besides, once the charge level reaches 90% and beyond, the charging current is at a point where minimal battery
heating occurs.
2. LeafSpy is a data gathering tool facilitating Leaf data analysis. It's doubtful whether it can modified to alter how the BMS controls charging.

Have to love how anecdotal info, pulled from you know where, now becomes valid battery theory!
 
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
Click to expand...

1. There's no comprehensive analysis that indicates that charging to 90% versus 100% reduces degradation long term, i.e. it's basically
anecdotal at this point. Besides, once the charge level reaches 90% and beyond, the charging current is at a point where minimal battery
heating occurs.
2. LeafSpy is a data gathering tool facilitating Leaf data analysis. It's doubtful whether it can modified to alter how the BMS controls charging.

Have to love how anecdotal info, pulled from you know where, now becomes valid battery theory!
Click to expand...

I second DaveinOlyWA's request for an 90% or even an 80% charge limit. That would mean that when I get to work, my car is parked with a 60-70% SOC, instead of 80%+. I run all my errands AFTER work, so I end the day at 30-40% SOC now. Too much for long term parking, but not enough to skip a single overnight charge. So the issue for me, and I'd imagine others as well, isn't what SOC we leave the home at, but rather the SOC that we're parked at work (sometimes under the sun) at. Since that SOC is dependent on what SOC we leave home with, it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation,

Edit: Those who need the 100%, can charge to 100%. I just wanted Nissan to give those of us mid-way folks the chance to limit the charge to only 80% like their 2013 leaf's did.
 
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!
.
Click to expand...

2. LeafSpy is a data gathering tool facilitating Leaf data analysis. It's doubtful whether it can modified to alter how the BMS controls charging.
Click to expand...
It could have a calculator function that shows how long you need to charge (at the full rate of your OBC, or at the known volts/amps of your EVSE) from the current SOC to a target SOC, then you could at least set a timer for when you need to run to the car and pull the plug, or when to plug in if you are aiming for a certain departure time. I've been pretty successful lately doing that calculation in my head, targeting 16 to 17 kWh and assuming 7 kW charging to allow a few extra minutes for me to leave my lab and walk to the parking garage, but having it at a glance wouldn't be a bad thing.

If I was asking for a change to LeafSpy, it would be to include the battery temp in the Trip Log screen. How hard is that?
 
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
Click to expand...

1. There's no comprehensive analysis that indicates that charging to 90% versus 100% reduces degradation long term, i.e. it's basically
anecdotal at this point. Besides, once the charge level reaches 90% and beyond, the charging current is at a point where minimal battery
heating occurs.
2. LeafSpy is a data gathering tool facilitating Leaf data analysis. It's doubtful whether it can modified to alter how the BMS controls charging.

Have to love how anecdotal info, pulled from you know where, now becomes valid battery theory!
Click to expand...

So you don't agree that higher SOC and heat increases degradation?

Because if you did, your comment above makes no sense. Its not good to charge to full but 90% makes no difference? Would it not imply that the lower the SOC in heat, the better?
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Since that SOC is dependent on what SOC we leave home with, it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation,
Click to expand...

Where has this, i.e. "it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation", been determined with certainty using a form of scientific
methodology in a longitudinal analysis?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
Click to expand...

1. There's no comprehensive analysis that indicates that charging to 90% versus 100% reduces degradation long term, i.e. it's basically
anecdotal at this point. Besides, once the charge level reaches 90% and beyond, the charging current is at a point where minimal battery
heating occurs.
2. LeafSpy is a data gathering tool facilitating Leaf data analysis. It's doubtful whether it can modified to alter how the BMS controls charging.

Have to love how anecdotal info, pulled from you know where, now becomes valid battery theory!
Click to expand...

So you don't agree that higher SOC and heat increases degradation?

Because if you did, your comment above makes no sense. Its not good to charge to full but 90% makes no difference? Would it not imply that the lower the SOC in heat, the better?
Click to expand...

Your data, please! And if so, you haven't stated nor provided proof as to the degree to which it has an effect.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
I second DaveinOlyWA's request for an 90% or even an 80% charge limit. That would mean that when I get to work, my car is parked with a 60-70% SOC, instead of 80%+. I run all my errands AFTER work, so I end the day at 30-40% SOC now. Too much for long term parking, but not enough to skip a single overnight charge. So the issue for me, and I'd imagine others as well, isn't what SOC we leave the home at, but rather the SOC that we're parked at work (sometimes under the sun) at. Since that SOC is dependent on what SOC we leave home with, it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation,

Edit: Those who need the 100%, can charge to 100%. I just wanted Nissan to give those of us mid-way folks the chance to limit the charge to only 80% like their 2013 leaf's did.
Click to expand...

This is where smart chargers/EVSEs (Open EVSE, Juiceplug, etc) come in. Set'em and forget 'em.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
lorenfb said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
Click to expand...

1. There's no comprehensive analysis that indicates that charging to 90% versus 100% reduces degradation long term, i.e. it's basically
anecdotal at this point. Besides, once the charge level reaches 90% and beyond, the charging current is at a point where minimal battery
heating occurs.
2. LeafSpy is a data gathering tool facilitating Leaf data analysis. It's doubtful whether it can modified to alter how the BMS controls charging.

Have to love how anecdotal info, pulled from you know where, now becomes valid battery theory!
Click to expand...

I second DaveinOlyWA's request for an 90% or even an 80% charge limit. That would mean that when I get to work, my car is parked with a 60-70% SOC, instead of 80%+. I run all my errands AFTER work, so I end the day at 30-40% SOC now. Too much for long term parking, but not enough to skip a single overnight charge. So the issue for me, and I'd imagine others as well, isn't what SOC we leave the home at, but rather the SOC that we're parked at work (sometimes under the sun) at. Since that SOC is dependent on what SOC we leave home with, it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation,

Edit: Those who need the 100%, can charge to 100%. I just wanted Nissan to give those of us mid-way folks the chance to limit the charge to only 80% like their 2013 leaf's did.
Click to expand...

This is for you since you are already onboard with the concept.

The cathode (positive electrode) develops a similar restrictive layer known as electrolyte oxidation. Dr. Dahn stresses that a voltage above 4.10V/cell at elevated temperature causes this, a demise that can be more harmful than cycling a battery. The longer the battery stays in a high voltage, the faster the degradation occurs.
Click to expand...

Notice a few keywords. These will be familiar if you scroll up about a million pages to my original comments

Elevated Temperature
The longer it stays the faster degradation occurs

So again....

High Heat or High SOC does cause degradation but charging to a high level and immediately driving is ok in a relative sense

but the real battery killer is Heat, High SOC AND TIME
and the real takeaway is the statement says "elevated" heat and that my folks aint hardly very warm to most of us.
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Since that SOC is dependent on what SOC we leave home with, it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation,
Click to expand...

Where has this, i.e. "it matters VERY MUCH to the long term degradation", been determined with certainty using a form of scientific
methodology in a longitudinal analysis?
Click to expand...

I'm just pointing out the practical fallacy of the premise. Would you agree that parking the car at 80% SOC is worse than parking it at 60% SOC? If we can agree on that, then it's trivial to see what SOC you have to start your day with to get to either of those situations.
 
If there is no buffer to knock off 20% in summer, then vehicle is useless in winter.
I keep mine at 80% for majority of them time. Except winter (3temp bars or lower),
when 80% is not enough for my trips.

For old 2011-12 Leafs, 90% charge (4.06V) is too much at hot climate.
80% charge state as well (4.0V). Voltage must be even lower to reduce parasitic
reactions enough. Though now it is too late to think about that. 2011-12 packs
are already degraded and nothing will bring those back.

Learning from Jeff's measurements, Nissan picked the wrong chemistry years ago.
Whoever doubts, just look at his old presentation available on YouTube.
4.3V 4.4V charge cycles kill cells way too fast. The lower it gets, the less problems there are.
As 4.1V cycles still degrade cells too fast in hot climates, need to lower that limit even more.
 
arnis said:
If there is no buffer to knock off 20% in summer, then vehicle is useless in winter.
I keep mine at 80% for majority of them time. Except winter (3temp bars or lower),
when 80% is not enough for my trips.

For old 2011-12 Leafs, 90% charge (4.06V) is too much at hot climate.
80% charge state as well (4.0V). Voltage must be even lower to reduce parasitic
reactions enough. Though now it is too late to think about that. 2011-12 packs
are already degraded and nothing will bring those back.

Learning from Jeff's measurements, Nissan picked the wrong chemistry years ago.
Whoever doubts, just look at his old presentation available on YouTube.
4.3V 4.4V charge cycles kill cells way too fast. The lower it gets, the less problems there are.
As 4.1V cycles still degrade cells too fast in hot climates, need to lower that limit even more.
Click to expand...

:(

Well, I've been at 6 temp bars all summer (sometimes 7), and even now when it's almost winter, I'm still seeing 6 temp bars. The only time I've seen 5 is when it's 50F or below. I've noticed accelerated degradation lately, and will update my stats after trying to rebalance my pack first.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Well, I've been at 6 temp bars all summer (sometimes 7), and even now when it's almost winter, I'm still seeing 6 temp bars. The only time I've seen 5 is when it's 50F or below. I've noticed accelerated degradation lately, and will update my stats after trying to rebalance my pack first.
Click to expand...

I noticed in your sig that you only reference GID as a representative of the condition of the battery. Is it always a 1:1 relationship of the SOH of the battery and the GIDs?
 
ironmanco said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Well, I've been at 6 temp bars all summer (sometimes 7), and even now when it's almost winter, I'm still seeing 6 temp bars. The only time I've seen 5 is when it's 50F or below. I've noticed accelerated degradation lately, and will update my stats after trying to rebalance my pack first.
Click to expand...

I noticed in your sig that you only reference GID as a representative of the condition of the battery. Is it always a 1:1 relationship of the SOH of the battery and the GIDs?
Click to expand...

I think so. And I think 380 GIDs was 100%? I don't have a concrete number since I didn't get the leafspy stats on day one. I did think it was rather odd that SOH was showing 100% all way to 7000 miles (~4.5 months of winter-spring driving)! So for me, I trust the GID number more, since it's a more detailed number than X %
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
you would be a perfect "80%" candidate. I think we need to lobby Jim to add custom charge levels to LEAF Spy!

With 24 and 30 kwh packs, there is not enough range to not charge to full but with 40 kwh, I would be ok with a standard 90% charge. Doing just this is supposed to reduce degradation several fold in warm weather.
Click to expand...
My 24 kWh car is routinely charged to 80% SoC
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
ironmanco said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Well, I've been at 6 temp bars all summer (sometimes 7), and even now when it's almost winter, I'm still seeing 6 temp bars. The only time I've seen 5 is when it's 50F or below. I've noticed accelerated degradation lately, and will update my stats after trying to rebalance my pack first.
Click to expand...

I noticed in your sig that you only reference GID as a representative of the condition of the battery. Is it always a 1:1 relationship of the SOH of the battery and the GIDs?
Click to expand...

I think so. And I think 380 GIDs was 100%? I don't have a concrete number since I didn't get the leafspy stats on day one. I did think it was rather odd that SOH was showing 100% all way to 7000 miles (~4.5 months of winter-spring driving)! So for me, I trust the GID number more, since it's a more detailed number than X %
Click to expand...
I'd check with GaryGID to say for sure but I've never seen a report of more than 363 GID's on a new car even when the owners reported AH values over 82 AH from Leaf Spy. I think the value is software limited by the BMS. That would explain why some cars report the same value (363) for months before the the GID's value starts to drop.
 
So - did a quick charge this evening to about 80 SOC (as reported by LSP). Dash said that I was at 6 bars for battery temp and it pretty much stayed at that when I drove home (~12 miles). I'm now at SOH=83% and my AHr = 66.16 (odo = 34,618)

2v2fekw.png
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
The cathode (positive electrode) develops a similar restrictive layer known as electrolyte oxidation. Dr. Dahn stresses that a voltage above 4.10V/cell at elevated temperature causes this, a demise that can be more harmful than cycling a battery. The longer the battery stays in a high voltage, the faster the degradation occurs.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

There are three variables, i.e. time, temperature, & battery voltage, mentioned which interact and contribute to degradation. Other than the
mention of voltage, the interaction of all three and the degree to which degradation occurs based on each variable is not mentioned.
So, as an example, to state that allowing the battery to remain at 100% SOC for a few hours at 75-85F repeatedly is going to result in
significant degradation over time as would being at 100% SOC for a month at 100F is naive. Also, there's no mention that charging to 100%
is detrimental. Given that, let's avoid taking what was stated out of context, assuming the worst case, and mis-leading forum members.
Of greater concern should be excessive battery temperature the result of ambient, charging current (QC), and motor current while driving.
 

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