Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

LeftieBiker said:

It apparently drives you nuts for no good reason. What is hard to understand about someone not wanting to run an ICE for 10 minutes to drive 20 miles? Why are you assuming that people will be buying a HEV instead of a PHEV because of this? I think you should reexamine your assumptions here.

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Uh, you've lost me here. Why would anyone with a 47 mile AER PHEV need to run the ICE to drive 20 miles? Even with resistive heat only, unless you're stuck in a traffic jam in sub-zero temps for an hour or two you wouldn't need to run the ICE. For 35 or 40 miles with heat you might need to use the ICE, but 20?

I was referring to PHEVs that have no electric heat. We have one of those and it's no fun. If the Honda has a resistance heater then the only point is that the Winter EV range will likely be more like 25 miles.

LeftieBiker said:

I was referring to PHEVs that have no electric heat. We have one of those and it's no fun. If the Honda has a resistance heater then the only point is that the Winter EV range will likely be more like 25 miles.

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I'm not aware of any PHEVs that don't have electric heat - which one did you have in mind?

25 miles only seems likely in sub-zero temps on snowy roads. Assuming a max. draw from a resistive heater similar to the LEAF's, which IIRR was around 6 kW, you only need that initially, after which the power to maintain the set temp drops to some fraction of that. If we assume no pre-heating from the grid and 1 hour of total trip time, then say 15 minutes to get the cabin to desired temp (72 deg. for the sake of argument) from when you get in, you're probably looking at 1.5 to 3 kW continuous after that depending on ambient, defrost use etc. So, 1.5 kWh for the first 15 minutes, then around another 1.125 to 2.25 kWh for 45 minutes, or 2.625 to 3.75 kWh max. for heat/def. If a Clarity PHEV has 12 kWh usable, then at worst you're looking at 12 - 3.75 = 8.25 kWh for propulsion/lights. If it's taking you an hour to go 25 miles, you should be getting over 5 m/kWh on dry pavement. It would seem to take snow with chains or studded tires plus some serious headwinds to limit you to 25 miles of range. Even if you pre-heat the car off the battery and _then_ drive it, it seems like you should be able to manage more than 25 miles.

I got between 18 - 25 miles AER in my 2011 Volt in January here in Minnesota with the resistive heater in comfort mode. What I hated was "engine running due to temperature" when I still had plenty of EV range left. I modified the ambient temp sensor to get around that annoying problem!

rcm4453 said:

I got between 18 - 25 miles AER in my 2011 Volt in January here in Minnesota with the resistive heater in comfort mode. What I hated was "engine running due to temperature" when I still had plenty of EV range left. I modified the ambient temp sensor to get around that annoying problem!

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Okay, so a car with a 35 mile AER when new, vice 47 for the Clarity PHEV. What kind of temps were you seeing - teens and below I presume ( I see the average low in January in Wayzata is -o.6 deg., avg. high is 20.1)? Snow tires/chains? ISTR the Volt allowed you the option of keeping the engine off down to either 35 or 15 deg. F - are you saying you modded it to go below that? Are you seeing any range degradation yet from the battery?

LeftieBiker said:

GetOffYourGas said:

LeftieBiker said:

It apparently drives you nuts for no good reason. What is hard to understand about someone not wanting to run an ICE for 10 minutes to drive 20 miles? Why are you assuming that people will be buying a HEV instead of a PHEV because of this? I think you should reexamine your assumptions here.

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It's not about not wanting to run an ICE for 10 minutes of a 30 minute drive. It's about deciding to instead run one for 30 minutes for a 30 minute drive because they cannot get to 0 minutes.

Perhaps I did not articulate my frustration clearly. When I say "people", I mean "some people", not "all people". I'm not making assumptions, I am listening to what people say. I personally know a handful of people who have done exactly what I described.

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Do you know of anyone who has bought a HEV instead of a PHEV for this reason? Because I've never heard of it happening. People who want an EV mode that badly don't throw it away altogether from exasperation. I think that this is either a strawman argument of some sort, or more likely someone told you this as a rationalization for not buying a PHEV but didn't really mean it.

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yes

GRA said:

Okay, so a car with a 35 mile AER when new, vice 47 for the Clarity PHEV. What kind of temps were you seeing - teens and below I presume ( I see the average low in January in Wayzata is -o.6 deg., avg. high is 20.1)? Snow tires/chains? ISTR the Volt allowed you the option of keeping the engine off down to either 35 or 15 deg. F - are you saying you modded it to go below that? Are you seeing any range degradation yet from the battery?

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Oh yeah on those below zero temperature days I was getting around 18-20 miles AER with the heater on full blast. No snow tires/chains just all season radials. On the 2011 model year there wasn’t the option to select either 35 or 15 deg.F for the ERDTT threshold, anything below 26 degrees forced the ICE to start up. Most days were below 26 degrees here in winter so you can imagine how often the ICE was firing up while I still had EV range. The worst part was when I’d run short 1 or 2 mile errands in town. I’d leave the garage with a full charge and by the time I’d get to the end of the block the ICE would come on and stay on until I reached my destination. Then after shopping or whatever I’d be leaving to head back home and the ICE would run almost the whole way home AGAIN! There were days when my MPG for the short trips were only around 18mpg!! Mostly because of the cold start-ups in freezing cold weather the ICE really never made it up to temperature.

Someone on the Volt forum came up with a really nice workaround solution using all Radio Shack parts to get around this problem. Basically I had to wire in a switch with a resistor to the wire harness that went to the outside ambient temp sensor. When the switch was in the off position the temp sensor reported the normal actual outside temp. When you flipped the switch to the on position the resistor would report a set value (mine always read 28 degrees). This worked like a champ! Even if it was 5 below zero outside the computer thought it was 28 degrees and I could therefore stay in EV mode. I would just remember to flip the switch off before taking the car in for any service work at the dealer.

I actually traded the car in for the Leaf I have now. I had the car for 3 years and put about 50k miles on it and I didn’t see any range degradation at all. I actually miss the way the Volt drove and handled, was well planted, took corners and turns really well, rode so smooth and felt more spirited then my Leaf!

yes

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Just to be sure we're on the same page: you know someone who claims to have bought a HEV because they didn't like the engine running in EV mode with a PHEV? Well, if so that makes my day!

GRA said:

My opinion, as long as you can put up with the looks and (probably) the less sporty handling (it's a considerably heavier car), for the average buyer this one will win out over the Volt.

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I can hardly see that. I just met a local man who purchased a 2017 Volt for $25,000 before the government rebate. He said he often gets close to 70 miles on the battery before the ICE kicks in.

On top of all that, the Chevy Volt has demonstrated extremely high reliability and excellent battery durability. While I have a 15.5-yo Honda Civic Hybrid on its original battery which I still love, they have had real issues in the area of battery durability which they have done little to address. There is a reason Honda does not sell very many hybrid vehicles these days.

The 2017 Volt has had much worse reliability. I don't know the details.

LeftieBiker said:

yes

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Just to be sure we're on the same page: you know someone who claims to have bought a HEV because they didn't like the engine running in EV mode with a PHEV? Well, if so that makes my day!

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Yes, I know two people (one family member, one coworker) who bought a Prius because there wasn't a PHEV with enough electric range for their normal use. When I asked them about it, their logic goes like this:

Well, I could get a Volt, but it only has (at the time) 35 miles of electric range. But that's not enough for my commute, so really it's going to burn gas at 35MPG. Instead, I could buy a Prius which gets 48MPG. Clearly the Prius burns less gas.

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For reference:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=30980&id=30919

Nevermind the fact that the Volt burns no gas for the first 35 miles. In both cases, that's the morning commute and part of the evening return. But that didn't factor into their equation - they just looked at MPG and picked the "winner".

Now this was back in 2011/2012. Maybe times have changed a little? Certainly in the case of the family member, he always hears from me about how much gas my PHEV saves.

You need smarter friends. We got a PIP for less than a Prius II, and even if we never charged it the car would get better fuel economy than the II.

LeftieBiker said:

You need smarter friends. We got a PIP for less than a Prius II, and even if we never charged it the car would get better fuel economy than the II.

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:lol:

I'm not really friends with that coworker and I didn't pick my brother-in-law, my sister did!

RegGuheert said:

GRA said:

My opinion, as long as you can put up with the looks and (probably) the less sporty handling (it's a considerably heavier car), for the average buyer this one will win out over the Volt.

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I can hardly see that. I just met a local man who purchased a 2017 Volt for $25,000 before the government rebate. He said he often gets close to 70 miles on the battery before the ICE kicks in.

On top of all that, the Chevy Volt has demonstrated extremely high reliability and excellent battery durability. While I have a 15.5-yo Honda Civic Hybrid on its original battery which I still love, they have had real issues in the area of battery durability which they have done little to address. There is a reason Honda does not sell very many hybrid vehicles these days.

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There's certainly much to be said for the Volt, but I expect the Clarity's greater rear headroom and fifth seat as well as Honda's general reputation for reliability (even though that hasn't applied to their hybrids in the past) will weigh more heavily with the general public, at least until the Clarity PHEV's been around long enough that it's possible to make a useful comparison. And the new Accord hybrid's selling quite well also.

One thing that does concern me with the 2nd gen. Volt is that GM is using more of the SoC range than they did in the first, so we'll have to see if that causes the Volt pack's to lose the excellent reputation for longevity that the 1st gen. earned.

GRA said:

There's certainly much to be said for the Volt, but I expect the Clarity's greater rear headroom and fifth seat as well as Honda's general reputation for reliability (even though that hasn't applied to their hybrids in the past) will weigh more heavily with the general public, at least until the Clarity PHEV's been around long enough that it's possible to make a useful comparison. And the new Accord hybrid's selling quite well also.

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The Chevy Volt also has a fifth seat. It may not be a great one, but it is there and can be used.

GRA said:

One thing that does concern me with the 2nd gen. Volt is that GM is using more of the SoC range than they did in the first, so we'll have to see if that causes the Volt pack's to lose the excellent reputation for longevity that the 1st gen. earned.

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Chevrolet has done an excellent job with building a durable solution for the Chevy Volt's battery. There is no reason to think that has changed. Honda, OTOH, has a reputation for delivering batteries with unacceptable durability.

The Honda Clarity is the new entry in this space. If you want to worry about the durability of the battery in one of these two cars, it would be for that of the one in the Clarity, not the one in the Volt.

RegGuheert said:

GRA said:

There's certainly much to be said for the Volt, but I expect the Clarity's greater rear headroom and fifth seat as well as Honda's general reputation for reliability (even though that hasn't applied to their hybrids in the past) will weigh more heavily with the general public, at least until the Clarity PHEV's been around long enough that it's possible to make a useful comparison. And the new Accord hybrid's selling quite well also.

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The Chevy Volt also has a fifth seat. It may not be a great one, but it is there and can be used.

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I meant a true fifth seat, not one only suitable for children or short term use.

RegGuheert said:

GRA said:

One thing that does concern me with the 2nd gen. Volt is that GM is using more of the SoC range than they did in the first, so we'll have to see if that causes the Volt pack's to lose the excellent reputation for longevity that the 1st gen. earned.

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Chevrolet has done an excellent job with building a durable solution for the Chevy Volt's battery. There is no reason to think that has changed.

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There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).

RegGuheert said:

Honda, OTOH, has a reputation for delivering batteries with unacceptable durability.

The Honda Clarity is the new entry in this space. If you want to worry about the durability of the battery in one of these two cars, it would be for that of the one in the Clarity, not the one in the Volt.

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We have no disagreement that the Clarity is the major unknown, but that doesn't exclude concerns about the Volt as well for the reason stated. Nor do I think the majority of purchasers will even be aware of Honda's track record with HEV packs.

The 1st gen. Volt's track record is good, but 1st to 2nd gen. pack isn't an apples to apples comparison. If GM had kept the same usable SoC range while using the (slightly) improved cells, I'd be willing to make a more definitive prediction, but that would have only boosted AER to at best 45 miles, and more likely 42 or so. As it is, we'll have to wait to find out. That being said, I do believe that GM's approach of providing a robust TMS remains a necessary step for now, and is critical to long-term battery health over the full range of U.S. climates.

There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).

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Anything up to 80% should be fine.

LeftieBiker said:

There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).

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Anything up to 80% should be fine.

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Based on what? There's already been an extended discussion of research, tests done, etc. for various SoCs/temps/chemistries, but unless they are done using the Volt 2's specific chemistry and other pack details in the specific conditions, the results are at best only general. To date we simply lack real-world (not accelerated lab) tests for the necessary period of time for the 2nd gen. Volt. When we get out to 4-5 years, we'll have a better idea.

Based on what? There's already been an extended discussion of research, tests done, etc. for various SoCs/temps/chemistries, but unless they are done using the Volt 2's specific chemistry and other pack details in the specific conditions, the results are at best only general. To date we simply lack real-world (not accelerated lab) tests for the necessary period of time for the 2nd gen. Volt. When we get out to 4-5 years, we'll have a better idea.

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Based on real world experience with various lithium batteries. Nissan seems to have set the benchmark low with the "Canary" pack for longevity, and they don't seem to have degraded any faster at 80%. The Volt already has a good track record for battery longevity, so there is no reason at all to think that the packs will start to degrade faster under what is still a very reasonable SOC range. Toyota has had great success with a similar charge range in the regular Prius, and NiMH packs are more temperamental than lithium packs over long periods.

GRA said:

There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).

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I know of nothing that indicates that increasing the range of cycling from 65% of SOC to 75% or even more has any significant impact on durability, so I will assume you are making this up until you produce some evidence to indicate that there is a *real* concern here.

GRA said:

The 1st gen. Volt's track record is good, but 1st to 2nd gen. pack isn't an apples to apples comparison. If GM had kept the same usable SoC range while using the (slightly) improved cells, I'd be willing to make a more definitive prediction, but that would have only boosted AER to at best 45 miles, and more likely 42 or so. As it is, we'll have to wait to find out. That being said, I do believe that GM's approach of providing a robust TMS remains a necessary step for now, and is critical to long-term battery health over the full range of U.S. climates.

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As stated, I believe your concerns about SOC range are unfounded. If you want to poke at something, then I would think the move from NCO to NMC would be a much bigger one.

Bottom line: The Honda Clarity is the PHEV to worry about in terms of battery durability, not the Chevy Volt.