Nissan "Out-of-Warranty" support for battery pack degradation

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Ok, the REALITY is that the loss of regen is a choice of Nissan programmers, not any issue with the battery itself. So this talk of resistance doing this and that is complete utter nonsensical BS. It is this reason why I think you have a legitimate claim for a dangerous vehicle. Its not worn out. Its simply does not have a programming that safely addresses declining battery capacity.

If the car can charge, it can also regen. On the flipside; in "any" car, no one goes to the manufacturer to get a good deal. But for whatever reason, the aftermarket has simply not materialized. Part of that is simply demand. There isn't enough. A lot of LEAFers simply gave up, got rid of the car for whatever price they could get for it and basically someone got a great deal... it just wasn't the original owner.

So replacing the battery at any cost will give you a pack that will likely last longer but does not resolve the root issue and that is the programming. It simply delays the time at which the car becomes dangerous again.

Why was this done in the first place? Nissan's way of saying the car is done, but a new one from us? Don't even say Nissan did it to help prolong the pack. that ship has already sailed. The reality is this requires introducing a completely different line of reasoning.

Gassers can downshift. Our downshift is regen. Without it, we are screwed.
 
Is it possible that the regen circuitry is different from the charge circuitry and has a different duty cycle profile?

I don't have enough steep hills nearby to try what a 5 to 10 minute regen run, although in the past I had plans to try to get to the top of Mt Washington and charging on the way down. Anyone from colorado try Pikes Peek yet?
 
abasile said:
it's perfectly reasonable for us to expect some minimal standard of safety performance, particularly during the 8 year / 100k mile battery warranty period.
There one important performance spec that also degrades along with the battery: Efficiency. Without regen, you lose significant efficiency whenever you have to slow for a stop, unless you are extra careful and give yourself plenty of room to slow down.

I really wonder how the EPA efficiency specs compare with a new battery compared to an old one, and if the EPA cares that cars within their warranty period can lose a significant amount of efficiency.
 
Good Luck, Abasille.

Perhaps your success will be a back door to warranty replacement for the entire group of owners past 5 years with a degraded battery.
 
I have a case number with Nissan's "EV hotline" and an appointment with the dealer down the hill. I intend to document my drive down the mountain, in terms of the braking behavior and my exact stops to let the brakes cool, and present this to the dealer.

SageBrush said:
Perhaps your success will be a back door to warranty replacement for the entire group of owners past 5 years with a degraded battery.
That's one potential outcome. The bottom line is that Nissan has sold a vehicle with inadequate braking performance for the range of legitimate use cases in North America. If I were running Nissan, I'd be considering both hardware and software fixes.
 
abasile said:
I have a case number with Nissan's "EV hotline" and an appointment with the dealer down the hill. I intend to document my drive down the mountain, in terms of the braking behavior and my exact stops to let the brakes cool, and present this to the dealer.

That's one potential outcome. The bottom line is that Nissan has sold a vehicle with inadequate braking performance for the range of legitimate use cases in North America. If I were running Nissan, I'd be considering both hardware and software fixes.

I will be following your posts about this. Just last week, I noticed that my regen was completely unavailable until I had 9 miles left in my current charge. Prior to that, no regenerative braking was occurring whatsoever. I do think the thoughts about colder air temps are valid, because I did not see this extreme level of loss of regen until it got colder outside. I’ve always had a problem with regen after the P337 software update, but NO REGEN available until I was down to my final two bars of current charge? This is insane. So please continue to post any updates, I’ll be interested to see what happens. I also live in a mountainous area, the Poconos of PA, although not quite the elevation you have in CA.

I have a 2011 with 34,000 miles on it and two capacity bars have been lost, although I think a 3rd one will be dropping soon.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Ok, the REALITY is that the loss of regen is a choice of Nissan programmers, not any issue with the battery itself.
I agree with you, Dave. Regeneration should have an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM power level equal to the charging rate which would occur when you plug the car into an EVSE. In my case, that is 3.3 kW. Their software algorithms should then add the power draw of the climate-control system to that number to find the lowest level of regeneration that should be used at a given time.

It's pretty ridiculous to EVER set it to zero unless the battery is full or the temperature of the battery is below about 0 degrees Fahrenheit.
 
drees said:
There one important performance spec that also degrades along with the battery: Efficiency. Without regen, you lose significant efficiency whenever you have to slow for a stop, unless you are extra careful and give yourself plenty of room to slow down.
On my way down the mountain today, I ran the cabin heater at a continuous 3 kW or so. Owing to the fact that there was scarcely any regen available (4 temperature bars and less than 80% charge), the LEAF reached the bottom of the 4900' descent with less charge than I started with. Even at about 50% SOC (six battery bars) near the base of the mountain, the available regen was zero or close to it. I had to make two long stops to cool the brakes, thus doubling the duration of the drive. Even still, the brakes smelled and some shuddering occurred.

drees said:
I really wonder how the EPA efficiency specs compare with a new battery compared to an old one, and if the EPA cares that cars within their warranty period can lose a significant amount of efficiency.
I doubt the EPA cares a great deal. Gasoline cars also lose efficiency with time, though not this dramatically.

The dealer representative who took my key fob did note on the paperwork that the car can't be driven down the mountain (that is, not in any "normal" fashion) due to bad regenerative braking. He seemed attentive to my concerns and was sympathetic when I explained that this is a safety issue and that regenerative braking is supported by the lithium-ion battery which remains under warranty for defects. We'll see what the LEAF tech says.
 
abasile said:
I have a case number with Nissan's "EV hotline" and an appointment with the dealer down the hill. I intend to document my drive down the mountain, in terms of the braking behavior and my exact stops to let the brakes cool, and present this to the dealer.
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?
 
SageBrush said:
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?
There's probably a relatively easy way to measure the temperature of the rotors, though I wasn't shooting for that level of rigor.

It's common sense to most people near big mountains that you need engine braking (or regen in the case of a BEV) to safely descend long grades. Imagine if engine braking were disabled on a popular ICE vehicle like the Versa. It would not go over well.
 
abasile said:
SageBrush said:
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?
There's probably a relatively easy way to measure the temperature of the rotors,
That is a good idea. You are going to need something more than common sense to prevail with Nissan.

IR thermometers are cheap. I have one that works great and cost $40 IIRC. It is shaped like a gun with a laser sight. I aim it where I want to measure the temperature and 'click.'

Alternatively, impress on the the LEAF technician the need to drive halfway up your mountain and then down before evaluating brake function and temperature.
 
SageBrush said:
abasile said:
I have a case number with Nissan's "EV hotline" and an appointment with the dealer down the hill. I intend to document my drive down the mountain, in terms of the braking behavior and my exact stops to let the brakes cool, and present this to the dealer.
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?

videotape the tech screaming when he touches the rotors to see how hot they are when you get to the bottom of the hill :lol:
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
abasile said:
I have a case number with Nissan's "EV hotline" and an appointment with the dealer down the hill. I intend to document my drive down the mountain, in terms of the braking behavior and my exact stops to let the brakes cool, and present this to the dealer.
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?

videotape the tech
Are you channeling your inner Trump ?

I wonder if rotors have a temperature range specification.
 
SageBrush said:
Alternatively, impress on the the LEAF technician the need to drive halfway up your mountain and then down before evaluating brake function and temperature.
I did advise when dropping off the car that the service department could reproduce the problem in exactly that manner.

That said, because the LEAF is parked down in the valley where the ambient air temperature is usually in the range of 10 - 30 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than at my elevated home, the battery won't be as cold and the regen won't be as bad. They'll also have to charge the LEAF first, as I dropped it off with five bars of charge, and that'll also raise the battery temperature. Still, the regen is so bad overall that I expect they'll see the issue regardless.

Don't worry - since I decided to start this process, I'm not going to let them off too easily.
 
abasile said:
SageBrush said:
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?
There's probably a relatively easy way to measure the temperature of the rotors, though I wasn't shooting for that level of rigor.

It's common sense to most people near big mountains that you need engine braking (or regen in the case of a BEV) to safely descend long grades. Imagine if engine braking were disabled on a popular ICE vehicle like the Versa. It would not go over well.

There is very limited engine braking in D on automatic transmission, I doubt most people that drive down the mountain care to shift to low gear, they are just riding the brakes.
 
Valdemar said:
abasile said:
SageBrush said:
I'm curious, how do you document brakes overheating ?
There's probably a relatively easy way to measure the temperature of the rotors, though I wasn't shooting for that level of rigor.

It's common sense to most people near big mountains that you need engine braking (or regen in the case of a BEV) to safely descend long grades. Imagine if engine braking were disabled on a popular ICE vehicle like the Versa. It would not go over well.

There is very limited engine braking in D on automatic transmission, I doubt most people that drive down the mountain care to shift to low gear, they are just riding the brakes.

downshifting is a lot more popular than you think
 
Valdemar said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
downshifting is a lot more popular than you think

Tell it to my wife and the bulk of female population out there, and probably 75% of male population too.
Yeah, I was amazed that a friend of mine who owns a 4Runner needed to be told to take the car out of OD and/or put it in 2 or 1 while making long, steep descents. As we were descending from Tioga Pass (9,941 ft.) through Yosemite via Old Priest Grade (17%) down to 1,000 ft. at the time, compression braking seemed an important bit of knowledge to pass on! :lol: The first time I rode (not drove) down it (Labor Day weekend 1975), someone had missed a turn and was 100+ feet down in the canyon off the side of the road: http://www.uniondemocrat.com/localn...lanned-for-notoriously-steep-old-priest-grade

Guess I was lucky to learn on a stick (and have a dad who drove trucks for a living). As he used to say, "if you break your transmission, you pull over and maybe it costs you a couple thou for a new one. If your brakes overheat and fail, you may not be around to buy replacements." The number of people who ride their brakes all the way down steep hills, with the attendant burning, continues to amaze me. With my last two cars with power disc brakes along with compression braking I've never had a problem stopping at the bottom of Old Priest, but in the '65 Impala (non-power drums all around) even with compression braking and as infrequent brake use as I could manage I'd have my back braced against the seat and putting my entire weight on the brake pedal to try and stop before I drifted past the stop sign at the bottom and out into traffic on 120. I always made it, but it was close a couple of times. I don't know if they still do this, but the family who lived at the bottom used to keep a hose in their driveway for people to use if their brakes were smoking or on fire, along with a guestbook to sign to show they'd used it. But Hwy 108 on the east side of Sonora Pass has an even steeper section, albeit shorter. It's either 25 or 26% (it's signed) with a couple of hairpin turns.
 
GRA said:
..Guess I was lucky to learn on a stick...

That. To be fair, those who drive on steep roads often most certainly know and use engine braking. Unfortunately they represent only a small fraction of the drivers on the roads.
 
Valdemar said:
GRA said:
..Guess I was lucky to learn on a stick...

That. To be fair, those who drive on steep roads often most certainly know and use engine braking. Unfortunately they represent only a small fraction of the drivers on the roads.

true and realize that the hills and slopes most people see are simply not enough to worry about. Even the Grapevine, I never downshifted. its STEEP and pretty long but not long enough (assuming your car was in good shape) . But Big Bear is a completely different story and the speeds are much lower.
 
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