2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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Stanton said:
goldbrick said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
I wonder if someone will have made a 3rd party 18650-cell based (with active TMS) replacement pack by before the 8y 100k warranty elapses?

That is certainly possible. Who knows what the cost of an 18650 will be in 5 years? Since removing the battery pack on a Leaf is so simple, it should be easy for an enthusiast to build a replacement pack that fit in place of the original. I don't know what kind of capacity you would get or how to add the TMS though. And there could easily be issues with licensing and insurance.

You guys make it sound like designing/building a battery pack...or TMS...which would basically require a new BMS...is easy (not to mention "dropping" a 600 lb high-voltage mass)!
The reality is no one will be building a battery pack for the Leaf 1.0 except Nissan anytime soon: there's no profit in it! I'm on my second battery pack (see sig), and the take-away for me is: I will look at the Leaf 2.0 when the larger (non-Nissan) battery pack becomes available.

Why would you need a new bms? You could configure the batteries to mimic the 48 cell pairs in the original battery pack and reuse the existing bms. Use 2170 batteries instead of 18650. 2016 batteries in 42x48 array is 35 in by 40 in and less than 3 in thick. That's for a 30KWH battery (15 WH per cell). The real question is "Can you buy 2170 batteries in bulk at a low enough cost?". Tesla can make them cheap enough but will be using all their output for the foreseeable future.

As for the TMS, seal the batteries in a container with mineral oil around the batteries, add a small pump and a radiator to circulate the oil. You only need enough oil to to fill the void spaces in between the batteries and a small reservoir space above and below the batteries. The tms operates independently from the bms.

Dropping the battery pack is less difficult than yanking an engine or a tranny.
 
jhm614 said:
boxman737 said:
I just lost the first bar on my 2016 LEAF SL with the 30 kWh battery after only 15,100 miles. The battery is losing about 1% of its capacity every 1000 miles. At this rate, I'll be down to 8 bars by roughly 35,000 miles (15% for the first bar and 7% per subsequent bar). The talk about rapid degradation in the 30 kWh batteries seems to be true. I live near Dallas and split my driving roughly evenly between highway and city speeds. I only use Level 2 chargers. My LEAF is great to drive, but the rapid battery loss is very disappointing.
Sorry to hear that, brother. Our climate is tough on the Leaf.

One question, when you get home, do you immediately plug-in and charge? If so, you might consider using the charging timer to delay the charge, giving the battery some time to cool before charging and to minimize the time spent at 100% charge. Of course, you might want to wait until you get the replacement battery first..

Our previous car was a 2013 LEAF and it didn't lose it's *first* bar until around 32,000 miles. So the fact that the 2016 30kWh version has lost 2 bars before 18,000 definitely seems much more accelerated given the climate for both cars was the same. The newer 30 kWh chemistry should be the new "lizard" chemistry and should do at least as well if not better than the 2013 / 24 kWh version.

Our LEAF is garaged and not only do we use a charging timer to delay charging we even upgraded our EVSE when we bought the 2016 model to the "Wifi enabled" JuiceBox and I wrote a custom program that delays charging until right before time to leave. IE: I tell it I want to leave at 10am tomorrow with 75% charge and the car is currently at 50% charge -- it'll compute the time needed and schedule the JuiceBox to start charging at around 9am since it would take about 1 hour to go from 50% to 75%. We rarely ever charge beyond 60-70% for most of our trips. (Granted, JuiceBox servers are so unreliable this fails a lot more often than I would like. I would not recommend anyone pay extra for the Wifi enabled JuiceBox given how unreliable their servers are.)

To make matters worse the 30 kWh model is heavier, has taller wheels and overall gets significantly less miles/kWh than our 2013 SV model. So at this point with 2 bars down and 18k miles we have about as much range as our 2013 SV had when we sold it at 37k miles, and it's still dropping fast.

Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?
 
goldbrick said:
I have a 2017 Model S and it's starting to look like the battery is degrading more quickly than I would expect. I've only had it for about 5 months and have only put about 3k miles on it so it's very early and hard to tell what is due to seasonal temperature change vs battery loss. Also, my commute is only 10 miles and my home town is about 5 miles end-to-end so I never really push the range. Still, come next summer, I'll probably have to get an accurate idea of what the battery is doing and decide whether to baby it or go for a replacement. I'll never hit 100k miles but I plan to keep the car for a long time so I could hit the 8 year mark. All in all, I'm not worried about it since even if it drops to 20kWh it would still suit all my needs but if I can get a battery replacement under warranty then why not? Time will tell.
Battery replacement is closer to 15kwh than 20. Mine is down 2 bars and LeafSpy says 19kwh now
 
Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?

Not as far as we know. You'd have to establish that at least one of the cells is defective.
 
irwinr said:
Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?
That was a joke, right ? You are talking about Nissan here
 
SageBrush said:
irwinr said:
Has anyone ever successfully gotten Nissan to do a warranty before all 4 bars were gone if the rate is degradation is clearly faster than intended?
That was a joke, right ? You are talking about Nissan here
irwinr makes me feel nostalgic for those innocent days before Nissan crushed all my hopes and dreams ;)
 
Yeah well one can hope right?

It just sucks to know that the car will probably be ready for a brand new battery very shortly before I'm due to turn the car back in to the dealer at the end of the lease.
 
Frustrating that many paid more for the 30 kWh battery via purchase or lease, yet now have a range that would be less than had they gone with the 24 kWh battery instead.
 
iPlug said:
Frustrating that many paid more for the 30 kWh battery via purchase or lease, yet now have a range that would be less than had they gone with the 24 kWh battery instead.

Not quite. 30 kwh pack would still have a bit more range.
 
Yet another 4 bar loser at https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1753173438086823/. This person has a '16 SL and their FB profile says they live in Florida (no surprise).
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
iPlug said:
Frustrating that many paid more for the 30 kWh battery via purchase or lease, yet now have a range that would be less than had they gone with the 24 kWh battery instead.

Not quite. 30 kwh pack would still have a bit more range.

We’re down 3 bars, SOH: 66, Hx: 65%. That would be less usable battery capacity after 20 months of lease than a 24kWh battery, no?
 
iPlug said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
iPlug said:
Frustrating that many paid more for the 30 kWh battery via purchase or lease, yet now have a range that would be less than had they gone with the 24 kWh battery instead.

Not quite. 30 kwh pack would still have a bit more range.

We’re down 3 bars, SOH: 66, Hx: 65%. That would be less usable battery capacity after 20 months of lease than a 24kWh battery, no?

oh I gotcha. Perhaps. On 24 kwh pack, you would only have to be about? what 82% or so to have same range without ever enjoying the longer initial range and more importantly the faster QC

I was actually thinking of the point when you would qualify for a replacement pack and despite the larger pack, the 30 kwh pack might only be only a few miles longer in range. due to the low SOC for the 4th bar over the 24kwh pack
 
I have lost my first capacity bar on my 2016 LEAF that I leased late Feb, ’16, build date 02-16, 30kWh battery.

I owned a 2011 Leaf that we drove 3-1/2 years, & 27k miles without loosing a bar (then totaled in an accident). I was expecting that kind of results with the 2016 and am really disappointed. I’m very happy with the car otherwise and intended to keep it long term, but maybe not now.

I noticed the bar loss in November after 1 yr 8-1/2 months, 16,100 miles.
BTW, the Leaf Spy Help document for iOS states the first capacity bar is dropped when SOH drops to “85% for a month of so…” (p.10 in the SOH paragraph - don’t know if that has been mentioned in this thread.)

I got a friend to take a reading with his LeafSpy a couple weeks after I noticed the lost bar:

AHr=62.40
SOH=78%
Hx=74.97%
17 QCs & 819 L1/L2s

When the car was new, the GOM was VERY accurate and reliable. Now it is over estimating the mileage to empty. It estimates miles consistent with about a 10% loss in capacity, but reality is more like the 15-20% loss that the SOH is indicating.

I’m in Kansas City, but garage the car when not in use. Generally have charged to 80-90% unless I know I’m going on a longer drive; don’t charge until SOC is < 50%; seldom discharge to less than 20%.

Nissan has stated to me that they have studied it, and don’t believe charging to 100% makes much difference. I noticed some references to “long life mode” in the manual, but the main reference to it in the charge timer section has been removed, and that function has been removed from the charge timer in the car.

My friend with the LeafSpy coincidently lost his first bar on the day he read my car’s stats. He has similar mileage, usage, and same build date.
 
Lost the 4th bar at 19800 miles on my 30KW 2016 Leaf. The dealer ordered one after a battery health check, and he is putting it in this week. This car is just 2 years old (bought Jan 2016), and another interesting note is the 12 V battery failed a load check and had to be replaced as well. I noticed a loss of range to about 80 miles before I took it in. My Leaf Pro stats are: SOH 65%, Hx63.36% AHr 52.1 at 89% SOC. This car lives in Dallas TX.
 
daw37 said:
I have lost my first capacity bar on my 2016 LEAF that I leased late Feb, ’16, build date 02-16, 30kWh battery.

I owned a 2011 Leaf that we drove 3-1/2 years, & 27k miles without loosing a bar (then totaled in an accident). I was expecting that kind of results with the 2016 and am really disappointed. I’m very happy with the car otherwise and intended to keep it long term, but maybe not now.

I noticed the bar loss in November after 1 yr 8-1/2 months, 16,100 miles.
BTW, the Leaf Spy Help document for iOS states the first capacity bar is dropped when SOH drops to “85% for a month of so…” (p.10 in the SOH paragraph - don’t know if that has been mentioned in this thread.)

I got a friend to take a reading with his LeafSpy a couple weeks after I noticed the lost bar:

AHr=62.40
SOH=78%
Hx=74.97%
17 QCs & 819 L1/L2s

When the car was new, the GOM was VERY accurate and reliable. Now it is over estimating the mileage to empty. It estimates miles consistent with about a 10% loss in capacity, but reality is more like the 15-20% loss that the SOH is indicating.

I’m in Kansas City, but garage the car when not in use. Generally have charged to 80-90% unless I know I’m going on a longer drive; don’t charge until SOC is < 50%; seldom discharge to less than 20%.

Nissan has stated to me that they have studied it, and don’t believe charging to 100% makes much difference. I noticed some references to “long life mode” in the manual, but the main reference to it in the charge timer section has been removed, and that function has been removed from the charge timer in the car.

My friend with the LeafSpy coincidently lost his first bar on the day he read my car’s stats. He has similar mileage, usage, and same build date.
The LeafSpy help info is for the 24 KWH battery. The 30 KWH battery is different. First bar won't drop until you hit approximately 80%, second bar at 74%, third bar at 67% and the fourth bar may not drop until you hit 60%. Depending on your driving habits and whims of the BMS, the % points may vary slightly. Keep in mind that Nissan's BMS never actually charges the battery to 100% but limits it to a max of 4.12 vdc per cell. 100% charge would put the cell at 4.17 vdc. LeafSpy SOC will only show 97.5% at 100% charge according to the BMS.
 
dfwpev said:
Lost the 4th bar at 19800 miles on my 30KW 2016 Leaf. The dealer ordered one after a battery health check, and he is putting it in this week. This car is just 2 years old (bought Jan 2016), and another interesting note is the 12 V battery failed a load check and had to be replaced as well. I noticed a loss of range to about 80 miles before I took it in. My Leaf Pro stats are: SOH 65%, Hx63.36% AHr 52.1 at 89% SOC. This car lives in Dallas TX.
Wow! Sorry for your loss but glad the warranty is taking care of you. Did you buy or lease?
 
dfwpev said:
Lost the 4th bar at 19800 miles on my 30KW 2016 Leaf. The dealer ordered one after a battery health check, and he is putting it in this week. This car is just 2 years old (bought Jan 2016), and another interesting note is the 12 V battery failed a load check and had to be replaced as well. I noticed a loss of range to about 80 miles before I took it in. My Leaf Pro stats are: SOH 65%, Hx63.36% AHr 52.1 at 89% SOC. This car lives in Dallas TX.
Good information.
So the first bar threshold has been tampered with, but if your car is typical the warranty will kick in at ~ 63 -- 65% of new capacity.

That is a relief.
 
dfwpev said:
Lost the 4th bar at 19800 miles on my 30KW 2016 Leaf. The dealer ordered one after a battery health check, and he is putting it in this week. This car is just 2 years old (bought Jan 2016), and another interesting note is the 12 V battery failed a load check and had to be replaced as well. I noticed a loss of range to about 80 miles before I took it in. My Leaf Pro stats are: SOH 65%, Hx63.36% AHr 52.1 at 89% SOC. This car lives in Dallas TX.
Good information.
So the first bar threshold has been tampered with, but if your car is typical the warranty will kick in at ~ 63 -- 65% of new capacity.

That is a relief.
There are going to be some great off-lease deals in a year or so, so long as the buyer does not mind battery replacement as frequent as every two years and periodic range drop to 65% of new.
 
dfwpev said:
Lost the 4th bar at 19800 miles on my 30KW 2016 Leaf. The dealer ordered one after a battery health check, and he is putting it in this week. This car is just 2 years old (bought Jan 2016), and another interesting note is the 12 V battery failed a load check and had to be replaced as well. I noticed a loss of range to about 80 miles before I took it in. My Leaf Pro stats are: SOH 65%, Hx63.36% AHr 52.1 at 89% SOC. This car lives in Dallas TX.

Interesting you dropped your 4th with your stats at or near the mid 60 % mark
 
Hi. Very first post. Our SV is a 2016 30kwh model, born 10/2015, we bought 12/19/2015 with 100 miles. I would say we push this car to the limit --- we drive 84 miles round trip each day, with an L1 trickle charge in-between for 8 hrs; then an L2 charge back to 100% each night. We drive all highway miles, generally 65-68 mph which is crazy dangerous on Florida highways since no one goes that slow! And yes, Florida -- We just had a super hot summer, AND we have to park the car during those weekday charges in an un-shaded paved lot. With that said, our SOH is 60.63%, AHr 48.19 and it has 39,119 miles. We have 9 bars. GOM [new lingo I have learned, so proud of myself] is 65 or so after a full charge. Frequently reach the turtle warning on our daily trip home, and go past it once in a while--but try hard not to have this happen. From this forum, we expect our 4th bar may go around ahr43-41 or so..? Which may not be till the summer, but there are too many factors at play, that it's seems difficult to say that for sure in our case.
Here are my questions: We didn't realize we were supposed to go for battery checkups each year, could that be a big problem?---should we go to the Nissan dealer NOW and get a reading and start planning for the new battery with them? We probably will need that new battery right away, and it takes a while to order/install from what I have read. It says in the warranty Nissan doesn't have to give us a battery that has 12 bars but anything over 9--- how often does that happen? Seems like people would just be coming right back for another battery if they were doing that. AND...just curious about the brand new 2018 battery that has a range of 150--- does anyone know if that is going to fit into previous year 30kwh vehicles, or is the battery now completely different? I heard somewhere Nissan sold the battery making to someone else?
 
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